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We've come so far

205.74.162.114
Posted on September 23, 2014 at 11:30:03
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 So much has happened in audio in my lifetime. We now have phones that can carry a larger music library than most people possess. Surely no one could possibly be happy with a system composed of the following components, all in production (albeit with some mods) since at least 1977 (so coming around on 40 years).

Front end: Linn LP12 turntable, SME M2-9-R tonearm, Denon DL-103 cartridge;

Amplification: Luxman L-505ux integrated amplifier;

Speakers: Vandersteen 2CE signature.

Surely this collection of components dating back to the "glory days" of high fi (late sixties to mid eighties, imo) couldn't possibly satisfy anyone anymore, could it?

 

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RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 11:34:21
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
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 ""Surely this collection of components dating back to the "glory days" of high fi couldn't possibly satisfy anyone anymore, could it?""


Sure it could..........not me though, I'd need some form of digital playback for all the thousands of great albums only available that way. I just couldn't limit myself to analog only.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 11:59:39
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Substitute the speakers for something else, and I could live with it.

Oz


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:02:05
briggs
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Connecticut
Joined: April 16, 2002
 It seems to me that "thousands of great albums" is an oxymoron. I have been collecting recorded music for about 65 years and have perhaps a few dozen albums I consider "great". There are many I enjoy.

As for the suggested gear, I am sure I would enjoy listening to music with it, and much of the mid-high to high end gear of prior eras. My system of that time consisted of McIntosh, Bozak and Weathers components, and provided many years of enjoyment.

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:07:46
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Do you have a permit to carry that question?



PS: My speakers were designed in 1955.


'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:50:04
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 That Luxman has a DAC, so you can hook up a computer if you're not a Luddite (I'm not, I have analog and digital front ends, no CD player though).

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 12:52:22
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 You got me, definitely a little bit of (hopefully friendly) trolling. It all started when someone in vinyl asylum asked about the DL-103. I got to wondering just how much out there is really better than what's been available for years.

I do love having my CD library ripped and at my fingertips via a tablet remote for Pure Music, but there's still just something about LP playback.

 

Since you admitted it, I'll kindly feed the "troll"..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 13:28:23
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 First truly good speakers I had the chance to live with- Dahlquist DQ-10. An eye opener, teaching me a great deal about crossover design, phase alignment(the good and bad about it), and the first thing I really dug into with mods and tweaks!

I'd probably buy a pair again (if the funds were truly expendable!) just to have something around to "center" me if I got out of control buying stuff (again, thankfully in a way, I'm rather broke right now).

Of course, my DIY 'table is an LP-12 copy, with some late 80's/early 90's parts.

And of course (again!), I like tubes (pre amp at least for the present). How far back do those go??? LOL

Cheers, and keep having FUN!
Dman
Analog Junkie

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 13:33:38
Inmate51
 I get your point.

:)

 

Sounds like the perfect system..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 14:06:10
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...for your college son's dorm room.

 

I'm not so sure we have..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 14:25:01
cloudwalker
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: central wa
Joined: September 27, 2012
 Sure there are small improvements, but in 50 years I have only noticed 3 BIG changes.. 1)the digital format. For once we could copy something and then copy the copy 100 times with no conquences. 2) 5.1 surround HT systems. Quadrophonic sound done right. 3)Subwoofer systems. But all this really did was replace 2 woofers (in the mains) with one single unit.

 

But, posted on September 23, 2014 at 14:46:22
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
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 you didn't say you had any source but vinyl. Thanks for clarifying



ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 14:48:48
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I have no idea why "great" ended up in that sentence. I only wanted to convey that having vinyl only would result in the inability to play thousands of recordings which I consider an unacceptable compromise. The OP has also responded that he does use a form of digital playback.



ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

I sure can live with it if I did not know any better or..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 14:59:12
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10272
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 if I am completely broke. ( having a tune is better than not having it )

 

RE: I sure can live with it if I did not know any better or..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 15:10:36
dogscanskate
Audiophile

Posts: 193
Location: montreal
Joined: May 19, 2004
Contributor
  Since: August 25, 2023
 nice kinda broke though!

 

Not with that system - looks like someone tossed it together off recommended components list., posted on September 23, 2014 at 16:18:13
Goober58
 Any of those components could be a part of a well matched value for the dollar system that satisfies some listeners subjective preferences.

But as you have it, IMO at least, it's kind of the anti synergistic system someone might throw together not knowing what they are doing. The best of no worlds.

 

Why?, posted on September 23, 2014 at 16:28:14
Goober58
 It's almost stupid. I'm betting for 3 grand+ one could find a much better amp for the Vandersteens and IMO it makes no sense to use the Linn with the Vandersteens (talk about summing weakness's). And further - I think it's wishful thinking to think one's going to be getting the best of the 2CEs with a 100 watt integrated amp.

 

you need a better DAC for your Mac..., posted on September 23, 2014 at 18:25:07
bullethead
 Also do you record your vinyl to a digital archive file? I read that vinyl wears out after a couple of passthroughs.

Get a better DAC, as a first step of course :)

If you are rambling that you are actually happy, that is a hard level to reach, if so disregard my ramble ;)

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 18:45:55
HotStamper
 I don't get it, why would anyone want a system that plays music ?? ;)

 

I forgot sbout 1 thing, posted on September 23, 2014 at 19:38:04
cloudwalker
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: central wa
Joined: September 27, 2012
 4) USB ports. Those allow software updates from the manufacturers

 

No idea ... , posted on September 23, 2014 at 20:37:46
three_sox
 ... None of it would satisfy me but I have no idea if it will satisfy anybody else.

 

My guess is the sum of those particular parts are worth more the whole., posted on September 23, 2014 at 20:44:08
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
 But older audio gear can still Hold it's own nicely today.

Just take a Garrard 301 with an SME 309 and a Denon DL-301
Phono stage of choice
Leak Stereo 20 amplifier
BBC LS3/5a speakers

 

"Surely no one could possibly be happy with a system composed of the following components...", posted on September 23, 2014 at 20:49:06
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31872
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Why not?


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

I'd take that, though . . . , posted on September 23, 2014 at 21:58:51
risabet
Audiophile

Posts: 3197
Location: SoCal
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I probably wouldn't put the English arm on the Scottish table. That system will play MUSIC.


Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.

Adam Smith

 

This place has sure gotten mean, give the guy a break, He may enjoy his systme more than many here. Nt, posted on September 23, 2014 at 23:24:40
jnr
Reviewer

Posts: 2164
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 .
theaudiobeatnik.com

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 23, 2014 at 23:40:32
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 So much has happened in audio in my lifetime. We now have phones that can carry a larger music library than most people possess. Surely no one could possibly be happy with a system composed of the following components, all in production (albeit with some mods) since at least 1977 (so coming around on 40 years).

Front end: Linn LP12 turntable, SME M2-9-R tonearm, Denon DL-103 cartridge;

Amplification: Luxman L-505ux integrated amplifier;

Speakers: Vandersteen 2CE signature.

Surely this collection of components dating back to the "glory days" of high fi (late sixties to mid eighties, imo) couldn't possibly satisfy anyone anymore, could it?

I guess if one judges audio systems by how easily he/she can access a wide range of music, your stated contention would be true.... But in my opinion, is there is a **lot** more to enjoyable audio than how many songs can be conveniently accessed.

 

However, the human auditory system has not really changed in that time, posted on September 24, 2014 at 01:40:34
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
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 Which means that if it sounded good then it is still likely to sound good.

I won't comment on your specific component choices, but suffice to say that the really good stuff from bygone eras are still really good stuff today if the goal is to recreate the music on a recording.

Most things related to "progress" really relate to time and/or space savings and only a bit of it has to do with sound quality.

Horns, electrostats, ribbons and even plasma have all been with us for close to 100 years (some longer) and these are still considered to be the most exotic of driver types. Only bending wave drivers are relatively "new" but still date from the 60s (maybe earlier in concept?).

The one area that might have made big progress recently is amplification and analog playback as there has been some intense work in these areas. Today's best turntables are far superior to the past ones. The return to the past amplifiers (SETs in particular but also PP triodes) and reduction of negative feedback (a wrong turn in history IMO) along with better passive parts quality has led to a sonic renaissance in that are IMO.

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 24, 2014 at 02:17:49
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Your goal is to enjoy your music and happily listen all day and chill out to music that makes you want to chill out and boogie woogie to the beats.

What satisfies some today is the ability to hear a fly fart 3 inches to the left of the left tweeter and even though the entire listening experience is utterly dreadful and you get bored after 20 minutes of listening - the key thing is to hear the fly fart to impress your buddies. Then you turn the system off and play Grand Theft Auto.

You could do far worse than starting a stereo system with LP12. You're probably going to have a tough time screwing up a system with a source like that.

 

That's NOT his system....(nt), posted on September 24, 2014 at 03:57:00
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 .
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 24, 2014 at 05:20:48
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Yes David, it could. There are many guys that are into vintage systems.

 

RE: you need a better DAC for your Mac..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 05:33:07
middleground
 "I read that vinyl wears out after a couple of passthroughs."

Where in hell did you read that?

It wears, but not out.

But you can listen through the surface noise to the music under the noise floor.

All the analogue gurus have revealed that "fact".



 

on the contrary, posted on September 24, 2014 at 06:38:36
Tom Schuman
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Location: Bremen
Joined: October 22, 2003
 Hi there,
Nice rhetorical question!
The answer is, "yes it could, of course."
Notably absent: a CD player or digital player, which would probably mean a turn for the worse in some areas, maybe better in others, depending on the quality of the software.
Just as morricab said, most 'advancements' (CD / PC Audio included) have had to do with convenience, lower per piece cost and materials, and need to protect profits (once patents are up, Sony et.al. has to invent a new system).
I would love to hear that system you named.
The audio industry has suffered from a lack of standards, race to the bottom competitiveness instead of working together, and need to produce en masse to make innovation financially profitable.
And, of course, the ignorance of the consumer, who is the constant victim of half truth and fad marketing. Perfect example is the move towards network and PC audio as if this offered inherent sonic improvements.

But like it or not, really good audio systems will ALWAYS be relatively expensive. Even if the pro audio guys could do a much better job in terms of value than the stuffy audio salon guys could. After all, 99% of everything we ever needed to know about a balanced sound in the home has long been known, but frequently ignored (the sin of omission) by the audio press.

 

RE: Since you admitted it, I'll kindly feed the "troll"..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 07:01:27
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Thanks for not taking my "trolling" too seriously. Like someone else mentioned, that's not my system, and I didn't give it a lot of thought. I haven't heard the Vandersteen's in years, nor the Linn, and I've never heard the Luxman. I picked stuff that's been around a long time to show how in my view, changes have not been revolutionary (with the digital caveat) in the audio world. And although I do listen to most of my music digitally (via computer to USB DAC), I've recently been rediscovering analog, and finding that yes indeed, it does still have a lot to offer. It's not perfect any more than CDs were "perfect sound forever" but at its best there's a "there" there that is often missing in digital.

Funny you should mention the Dahlquist. My speakers are a descendant of those, the Alon Model IV. I just bought dipole tweeters to match the midrange, directly from the man himself, Carl Marchissotto. He also re-foamed my woofers. Now I really have to get them back together, as although my secondary speakers, a pair of Signets, are okay, the Alons are in a whole different class.

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 24, 2014 at 07:32:52
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 We often don't really know what we are looking for until we find it, sometimes over and over again!

 

RE: I'm not so sure we have..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 07:35:50
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "in 50 years I have only noticed 3 BIG changes.. 1)the digital format. For once we could copy something and then copy the copy 100 times with no conquences. 2) 5.1 surround HT systems. Quadrophonic sound done right. 3)Subwoofer systems.

Excellent post! I'd add "acoustic suspension" woofers which I feel give real bass for real rooms. But I suppose that Sub-woofers have made them rather academic.

Records suck and I go back to the 78 days where they both sucked and shattered. Digital is THE answer to music storage as it is for so many other problems and that's why we invented it! At the limit there is effectively no limit to it's temporal or amplitude resolution, and, as you pointed out, it can have no generational loss. There it is!

Transducers on the other hand will probably always be a bottleneck whether for sight or sound, capture or presentation. That's just the way of the world, things always get a little lost in translation...

I love digital.

Rick

 

Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:26:15
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 ....
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:37:06
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
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 Just wondering what you saw as the main point(s) in the OP


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:41:08
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 To me, he was lamenting that maybe we hadn't progressed as much as we think. And he made up a system of imaginary components that could have comprised a system many years ago. In my opinion, it was more an exercise to make you think, than an actual question that required an answer.

But many took it too seriously, and some even thought that was his own system. Waaaay overthunk......

Or maybe I'm completely wrong, who knows?



Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:44:51
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I saw the Luxman site and it mentions the D/A converter but I see no "digital in" anywhere just line and phono inputs and one balanced. Smallish photos that had no magnifying factor.



ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:48:26
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Nope, spot on, except maybe I'm not so much lamenting it. As I get older, and also have been listening to a lot more unamplified live music lately, I think more and more that it may never be possible to truly reach the absolute sound, if by that you mean you can't tell "is it live, or Memorex?" But I was basically saying that progress has been VERY incremental.

 

RE: Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 08:50:36
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I see that point and the gear fit his mold to a major extent except for the D/A in the Luxman (which I see no inputs for in their pics) and I also see that perhaps many see the largest enjoyment from hi-fi in a good vinyl rig and not all the new digital (front end) stuff.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Judging from the replies, it appears that your point was lost on most...., posted on September 24, 2014 at 09:06:54
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 ""But I was basically saying that progress has been VERY incremental.""


Which is what I got and I mostly agree. There are a few areas that are a good deal better that make a difference. Good analog electronics (amp,pre)that use no or little feedback, the better parts, especially caps, available for them and then there is all the AC delivery improvements and cabling improvements.

There are many 70's speaker designs I could live with. The chosen vinyl front end would take at least a few times more money to make easily noticeably better.

If you look at many things that were around then and now the improvements are there but one seldom finds anything even 2X as good.....good thread


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

The problem today remains the same as it's always been, posted on September 24, 2014 at 09:10:17
Goober58
 Synergy (the piling on off strengths of components aligned with listening preferences) and system matching were as neglected then as it is today.

"To me, he was lamenting that maybe we hadn't progressed as much as we think. .....In my opinion, it was more an exercise to make you think, than an actual question that required an answer."

I think you might be correct as to his intentions. But as usual we are asked to, and willing participate in, contemplating the big forest without regard to our own backyards.

 

RE: The problem today remains the same as it's always been, posted on September 24, 2014 at 09:42:59
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 I do agree with synergy as being key. But I think it is more overlooked today than it was back then. Generally speaking, components didn't have the extreme distinctions and resolving powers that they do now. That's not to say there wasn't good and bad equipment, just that the gradations were narrower and things tended to "play together" more often than not.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

What did you expect?, posted on September 24, 2014 at 09:54:56
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Digital almost ruined home HiFi, although it has been wonderful for music on the go. I am still trying to cope with achieving good digital playback. Maybe, something MORE money can fix, I don't know. Some say it just sounds different.

However, there is a LOT of truly nice gear out there now with a LOT more of a selection than ever before.

I am happy with that transition. Now, if we can just grow our hobby population wise. Our numbers seem rather static to me except probably for the Asian Tigers.

Class D amps for Home Theater also seems great to me. Who needs Hi Fidelity for watching a movie??

 

And yet lost so much..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 10:17:10
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 Hi, David,
Thousands of songs on a device the size of a cassette tape. What marvelous progress we've made in the past four decades. Can't wait until we can stream millions of songs into audiophile-quality brain receptors. '-)

But something has been lost along the way. Remember the care that went into custom tapes given out as gifts? Being the first one to get a copy of the latest record album to share with friends?

I will admit, though, to taking advantage of digital music files and videos available online. They allow me to sample new music before buying an LP or CD. It's a nice convenience. And the direction that digital music technology (components and sound quality) is headed is certainly getting my attention. I'm likely to jump into the hi-rez world of music any month now.

But I still prefer to dig through record bins, clean a stack of albums, put an LP on the turntable, turn up the amp, and listen to great music through box speakers. Just like I did four decades ago.

Regards,
Tom

 

Very well said, thanks, posted on September 24, 2014 at 10:56:03
Goober58
 Yep there's a much greater selection of good components today but that just means one has less chance of getting lucky, ie. getting the most out of what they buy, when building a system.

Overall I think maybe the average system is as good or maybe even worse than the old days, but exceptional systems are much better.

And more good news (ignoring of course the proliferation of the marketing vehicle and their legions of read between the line audiophile detectivists), consumer level products are far superior today too.

 

RE: And yet lost so much..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 11:04:08
Goober58
 What's been lost? I can't believe anyone would yearn for the good old days. Heck I still visit used record shops - but buying/selling used on line makes so much more available, so much more affordable, and saves me from getting raped when trading in as I usually did back in the good old days.

Not to mention I'm bedazzled by the quantity and quality of music (including high rez) available for free download.

Nothings been lost - all of what was is still there.

 

RE: Very well said, thanks, posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:01:39
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 "Overall I think maybe the average system is as good or maybe even worse than the old days, but exceptional systems are much better."

I think that is a key point. 30 years ago music played a much bigger role in the home. Today, an average system is usually one that is centered around a home theater. So not much thought is going into fidelity. It's a shame really.....


Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

You both make good points, posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:07:43
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Which just goes to prove we live in the means, not the extremes



ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

this brings up another interesting question.., posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:39:56
cloudwalker
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: central wa
Joined: September 27, 2012
 do you think speakers are better or just different? Some seem to be more expensive though...

 

yes, but that makes us "crazy" people needed to preserve, posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:43:24
cloudwalker
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: central wa
Joined: September 27, 2012
 this art more than ever. And it is as interesting as ever...

 

RE: Very well said, thanks, posted on September 24, 2014 at 12:59:30
Goober58
 "I think that is a key point. 30 years ago music played a much bigger role in the home. Today, an average system is usually one that is centered around a home theater. So not much thought is going into fidelity. It's a shame really....."

Add lossy digital into the mix and discussions about fidelity become even harder. At the outset we need to understand exactly what our purpose is actually going to be - hi fidelity two channel audio, streaming audio off the internet or home theater (or whatever else). I can imagine trying to build a synergistically nuanced hifi while supporting home theater or lossy digital formats - it's just not going to work or your choices become very limited compared to 2 channel alone.

I don't remember adding digital (a CD player) to my existing system as being something that was particularly easy - I believe there are many old time audiophiles who don't believe it is possible or that don't want to bother. I apologize to the vinyl purists, I've always been a vinyl fan and a minimalist, but digital is a godsend.

For the guys who want to talk lossy digital or home theater, more power to them, but it's a conversation for others.

 

I don't see anything to be critical of, posted on September 24, 2014 at 14:13:28
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 if nobody is 'listening'!

At one time, I was miffed that line-stages no longer included a phono stage. Then, it bothered me that line-stages didn't have analog balance controls. Then, it bothered me that I could always figure out all the buttons and modes. Etc.

But, what a terrific line-up of components we have now. I remember be satisfied with KLH 6's for Jazz and Bose 9's for rock, though. I didn't like my idler Miracord though and got a Philips 312 with touch controls.

I think the equipment we have now is much more accurate, although the CD almost threw the baby out with the bath water.

I see Rega turntables finally getting out all the weaknesses in their Planar series.

Life is good.

 

Hard to generalize..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 14:57:31
genungo
 During the last 30 years home theater, computers, and cellphones have made fashion, features, and convenience big selling points. I also think that many modern day products are refinements of older designs rather than truly groundbreaking design achievements, which is not all that bad when you think about it.

"Affordable" middle-class gear (kept affordable mostly by way of Asian manufacturing) can be a mixed bag. There's the affordable stuff oriented towards home theater that most of us would want to ignore, then there's the more *serious* affordable stuff that has benefitted from the "trickle-down" effect of advances or refinements made in high-end cost-no-object audio gear - the affordable stuff more of us would prefer to buy.

Converting 1980's dollars into 21st century dollars, I think it is possible to get better stuff today for the same dollar equivalent but you really have to do your research before buying in order to separate the fashionable, convenience-oriented, feature-laden schlock from the truly solid design statements. You might also be forced to touch pee-pees with Asian vendors and manufacturers during the shopping process, a bit more frequently than you might wish.

 

Maybe it's just nostalgia, but there's something else..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 15:34:19
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 Hi, Goober58,
I admit to enjoying modern conveniences; would be a fool and a dullard not to. But as I said, I still prefer some of the old ways. Maybe it's the visceral aspect of it. Dry flies vs GPS fish-finder down-riggers. "English" three-speed vs carbon-framed, electronic 11-speed racing bicycle. Snowshoeing vs groomed-platform skate skiing. You get the idea.

Free music has always been available so that's not of any importance to me. I have very little "free" music in my selection, wanting instead to support the artists and the industry as much as I can. (And no judgement of those that take advantage of what's available.)

Enjoy the music. No matter what form it's in. :-)

Regards,
Tom

 

Funny you would say that, posted on September 24, 2014 at 16:35:42
Goober58
 I spent a grand on a 7 speed commuter with the old style internal hub shifting.

And BTW check out the lossless stuff on internet archives. I found a bunch of good stuff - you might not. These artists want you to take these free lossless and hi-rez downloads - I discovered Robert Randolph, Pinback and others this way. Not to mention the great Derek Trucks, Butthole Surfers, North Mississippi Allstars, Ween and many others who willingly participate. And FWIW worth if my favorite bands want me to buy more of their albums they need to release more of them - I can't imagine how anyone could construe having bootleg recordings of your favorite artists as not supporting the bands. I would never intentionally download released music without paying for it and I would most certainly judge those who do. If I want something that has been released I buy it.

 

Cool! /nm/, posted on September 24, 2014 at 16:40:24
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 tom

 

It's all good ..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 17:17:34
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 So long as music comes out and it sounds pleasing, its all good.

As to which means to the end ...to each their own.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: Hard to generalize..., posted on September 24, 2014 at 19:33:05
middleground
 "touch pee-pees" WTF?

 

Good remains good, posted on September 24, 2014 at 21:04:19
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 regardless of era or passing fads. On the other hand, the industry has continued to evolve over the past four decades. The SME arm has different way of adjusting tracking force than the 3009 found in my garage system. I suspect more has changed than just that. From the Linn site:

"For over 40 years, each component has been continuously improved to extract even more information from a vinyl record."

The same can be said for the Vandersteens:

"While the Model 2's aesthetic and basic design principles have remained constant over the years, under the hood the Model 2Ce Signature II is a dramatically different speaker thanks to continual refinement and nonstop tinkering by Richard Vandersteen. The Model 2 has never sounded better! "


But, better exists for those who care. Not only that, the cost of good sound has continued to drop in real dollars.

 

RE: ..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 01:56:26
genungo
 "Doing business".

 

RE: ..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:02:48
middleground
 See you don't have to use pipi-kaka language to communicate.

 

RE: We've come so far, posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:06:59
middleground
 You are running headlong into the first rule of present day audiophilia holding that money = quality sound, more money = better quality sound and insane money... well you get my point.

 

RE: ..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:12:09
genungo
 Yes, but pipi-kaka language seems appropriate sometimes.

 

But have..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 14:12:33
Jim Treanor
Audiophile

Posts: 2167
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: June 1, 2003
 recording engineers and producers?

Jim

 

Or..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 14:27:59
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...microphones?

One of the best recordings I have uses a vintage tubed microphone for the vocal.

 

Digital Streaming: the new interactive radio for music buffs., posted on September 25, 2014 at 16:16:20
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 I'm not too keen on having a streaming middle-man further intervene in my relationship with bands or performers. It's nice to be able to direct the 'streaming radio' with more dialogue than just leaving a voicemail request at a radio station and hoping that a dj picks my call.

But I still enjoy that artefact, that artwork or just the object of a recording and all that's wrapped around it, which a disc (silver, black or otherwise) represents. It's mediated contact (on media) but it's still fairly direct. I'm also happy to buy USB sticks of music and still buy cassettes.

I just don't trust the streaming middle-man, or distributed IT in general. That said, my sense is that high quality streaming/cloud services will replace PC audio anyway (lots of mini-server farms in everyone's home is expensive, even if it is a relatively resilient [but uneven] model in DR terms).

Sounds, tunes, charts and ubiquity, utility - that's cheap. I pay for music, performance and art (and focus on combinations of all three).

Just my POV.



Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

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