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Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR

98.145.163.72
Posted on September 18, 2014 at 09:23:09
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 From now on you have to keep a 'credit card on file' with them and they take any fees you owe them on the 3rd of the month automatically.

Credit card on file?

FORGET IT.

This is it, I AM DONE WITH THEM.


'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

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RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 09:46:50
Br3098
Audiophile

Posts: 255
Location: Southern California
Joined: December 23, 2009
 I don't believe that you read the announcement correctly. They are not requiring you to have a CC on file in order to buy anything. They ARE requiring a CC on file in order to utilize Buy It Now.

Having said that, I will not be providing Audiogon with my CC number. It's not that I have a problem with that per se with a selected few vendors, but the fine folks at Audiogon have not earned my trust or respect over the last couple of years.

And frankly, their timing for this announcement is peculiar at best: after all of the very recent CC data file hacking scandals they decide that this is the right time to ask for your card information? I think not.

Just my opinion...

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 09:50:40
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 I don't believe YOU read the announcement correctly.

Not only do you have to have a CC on file to "Buy It Now", but you also have to have one on file to sell.

Oz


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

And the winner is..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:06:05
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004
 Asylum Trader!



"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

 

They don't get my CC. Let's hope everyone does the same, posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:06:21
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 And they re-think this ridiculous scheme.

Guess I won't be selling anything for awhile.




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:27:39
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Use the Asylum trader!

 

I've tried, posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:32:45
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I'll put an item on the asylum trader for a month and it won't sell.

I'll put it on Agon and it sells in a week, if not days.




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:43:24
Br3098
Audiophile

Posts: 255
Location: Southern California
Joined: December 23, 2009
 Oz,

Here's a copy of the announcement. Please pardon my stupidity and show me where it specifically states that you need to have a CC on file in order to sell.

Note: Audiogon has always required you to use a CC (or PayPal) to pay listing fees, so that is not the issue at hand. Keeping CC numbers on file is a whole different thing. (It's not confidence-inspiring that they misspelled the word outstanding)

Updated Terms of Service

We are updating our Terms of Service. Here are the highlights:
A credit card on file will be required to sell or use Buy It Now
This allows us to verify the identity of everyone using the site to better protect all of our members.

Outstanding fees will be automatically charged to your credit card on the 3rd of every month

You will only be billed once a month, on the 3rd, versus having to pay outstading fees every time you list. You can avoid any and all automatic charges to your credit card by:
1. Paying your bill before it is automatically charged
2. Using Premium listings which do not incur transaction fees
3. Using PayPal as your payment method so that transaction fees are automatically deducted
Flagging Policy and Community Standards

Our Flagging Policy will address users who violate our Terms of Service or our Community Standards.

 

Duh., posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:48:07
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 'A credit card on file will be required to sell'


THERE.






'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

Maybe here ..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:48:09
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13134
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Updated Terms of Service

We are updating our Terms of Service. Here are the highlights:
A credit card on file will be required to sell or use Buy It Now
This allows us to verify the identity of everyone using the site to better protect all of our members.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

How is this different from..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 10:53:55
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
 Amazon and a lot of other on-line vendors? Amazon keeps credit card information on its system (when I order it already knows credit card information and I merely select which card I want to use among several on file). When one orders something that is not in stock, Amazon will automatically charge against my card when it does finally get the item in and ships it; I don't see much difference in the operation of Amazon and Audiogon in that respect.

 

RE: How is this different from..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:10:08
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 Exactly. Tons of online sites sit on your credit card- too many to name.

It twill thin out scammers as well.

 

eBay, Amazon, Paypal and MANY other vendors have had my CC info..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:14:54
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 on hand for over 12 years.

Stopped crossing my fingers hoping nothing "bad" would happen 'cause, you know, THAT got old and THEY got cramped.

Nothing "bad" HAS happened.

I suppose many are out there thinking: "Well, it's ONLY a matter of time..."

Besides, I thought you said they had gone too far in your previous tirade.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure




 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:26:36
louie3
 Oh boy...now the hundreds of hacks Agon gets each and every month will have access to credit cards.

Those guys at Audiogon...How to Ruin a Great Audio Marketplace.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:28:19
louie3
 then they have got you by the shorts.

My experience has been that Ebay and the Audio Asylum trader are more effective (and cheaper with less hassle) than Audiogon.

 

RE: Duh., posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:36:44
Br3098
Audiophile

Posts: 255
Location: Southern California
Joined: December 23, 2009
 >>A credit card on file will be required to sell or use Buy It Now

You could be correct. I interpreted that statement as a CC would be required to use Buy It Now as a buyer or seller. Now I'm not sure. I have fired off an email question to Audiogon and I will post their reply, if any.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 11:51:17
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 eBay less hassle and expensive than Audiogon? You have got to be kidding.

eBay charges 10% commission on everything including freight. They are WAY more expensive versus any other site on the internet!

The hassle factor with eBay is also worse than any other site on the internet.

 

That's been my experience as well..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 12:16:20
Trelja
Audiophile

Posts: 153
Location: Philadelphia, PA suburbs
Joined: August 3, 2001
 Wish that things changed.

While things are slow all over, Audiogn produces some level of action, whereas, nothing seems to come from the AA ads. It wasn't for my lack of trying.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 12:19:40
louie3
 Been using Ebay since before the dawn of time. My account has been hacked once in all that time.

My Audiogon account was hacked five times in three years.

Yes, Ebay is not free either.

So far, at least, Audio Asylum Trader and USA Audio Mart are more viable alternatives FOR ME.

Don't know about you.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 12:23:20
louie3
 This is almost exactly the same as rules as with Ebay.

The difference being that Audiogon seems, for some reason, to attract hackers.

(Not very sophisticated hackers, at that.)

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 12:47:05
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 Not going to argue that point. But the comment was Audiogon more expensive versus eBay. That is simply not the case. eBay fees are radically higher than any other site on the internet. If you are comfortable paying 10% commission on sales with eBay go for it. No way I am paying eBay 10% on a higher dollar item.

In terms of being 'hacked' I could not care less. No skin off my nose.

Most of this thread is just the typical Audiogon bashing. Are they perfect? Nope. Is anything perfect? Nope. The bottom line is Audiogon, even with all its faults, is the most effective site for selling high end gear. It gets the most eyeballs versus anything else. One need only look at the other sites the number of listenings, the number of visits, etc., and you quickly see Audiogon is the champ. My guess is we could combine all the competing sites numbers as one group and it would fall far short of the activity on Audiogon.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 18, 2014 at 13:28:39
jperry
Audiophile

Posts: 418
Location: Phx, AZ
Joined: September 11, 2004
 I agree with you. Audiogon is not perfect, but it is the best site for selling audio equipment.

Lately there have been a number of fraudulent ads posted on Audiogon. The offer to sell something desirable at a price below market. Requiring seller to have a credit card on file will prevent this for the most part and improve Audiogon.

My experiences there have overall been good, and my experience with high end equipment on e-bay is sellers with overrated items.

I have always had goos experiences buying and selling here, but the traffic is very slow if you are a seller.

 

How can anyone be OK with this? , posted on September 18, 2014 at 14:05:18
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 If you that think it is OK you have been hoodwinked! The more companies that have your info the more likely fraud or even simple mistakes will occur. Anyone that denies that is just wrong. Over the last many years we have seen data stolen from many many places. How many more will it take for you to be at least leery?

I didn't give Amazon permission to keep my info on file but I did get their Visa credit card to save $30 on a $79 purchase and paid the bill and tore up the card. Now every time I buy there it defaults to that card and tries to get me to use it so they can make more money. Perhaps that was in the 20 page agreement that I clicked "I accept" to when getting the card. I know you guys all read that and every software agreement...........right

But this culture of thinking all is well just doesn't cut it. It would be one thing if Agon sent a bill you could see say a week or more before they were going to charge you to confirm its accuracy. I don't understand why anyone would give Audiogon a free pass after all the shit that has gone wrong with them over the last few years. You're plying roulette.

The worst thing I've seen in these responses is the "well all these other companies do it". It's this culture of well that's my only option I'll just accept it. So silly. We are a bunch of apathetic wussies! We have the ultimate power: the power of the purse and we NEVER use it. Pathetic!

Combine that with using this as yet another reason to promote AA Trader and cut the A'gon cord......


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

eBay isn't cheap, posted on September 18, 2014 at 14:18:37
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 often its rates are justified though by the higher prices one can get on certain vintage items with limited numbers available. Case in point a Heathkit I sold there easily got 2X over anywhere else I would have sold it. I wouldn't sell any currently manufactured products on eBay.

But the Asylum is free not just cheaper with less hassle! That's a big difference to me.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

best post on this subject , posted on September 18, 2014 at 14:28:24
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
'How can anyone be ok with this'.

Yup. That says it all.









'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

:-), posted on September 18, 2014 at 16:19:13
mark111
Audiophile

Posts: 4699
Joined: April 12, 2002
 .

 

Merchants won't be satisfied until they have total control..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 16:28:32
genungo
 We've let these blood-sucking vampires in the door and now it's time to exorcise them. I have stopped accepting or using Paypal. I only use or accept USPS money orders or certified checks. My buyer/seller feedback history is good and well established, so I'm opting out of their game.

 

RE: Merchants won't be satisfied until they have total control..., posted on September 18, 2014 at 16:57:15
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Interesting. They are a monopoly for sure and their fees are a bit much. The convenience factor for many and perceived protection will be tough to overcome. Good luck.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE:"Good Luck" , posted on September 18, 2014 at 18:12:24
genungo
 I really don't want "luck". But just the same, good luck to us all. The next time our accounts are hacked, we might need it.

Convenience and protection, baloney. It's all about *access* - their access, mostly.

 

Gosh, another Audiogon whinge ... , posted on September 18, 2014 at 18:24:28
three_sox
 ... If you don't like Audiogon and their practices then don't use them.

It is this simple.

Or, whinge about them often.


I am not sure how some of you guys get through the day with all of these evil companies conspiring against you all the time.

Life's good, enjoy it.

 

RE: Gosh, another Audiogon whinge ... , posted on September 18, 2014 at 21:31:45
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2956
Joined: February 20, 2011
 People will use there services because they get results. That's the bottom line.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 19, 2014 at 04:20:31
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 We do see fraudulent ads on Agon but these stick out like a sore thumb!! Always a highly desirable item way below market value. No feedback, not in the US. How people fall for this nonsense is beyond me but it does take two to make the fraud work. The scammer and a greedy victim. Even with the credit card security I still see the scams on eBay.

I have sold items on AA Trader quickly but they were highly desirable items and the price was right.

Overall if one is serious about selling their gear and don't want to pay eBays ridiculous commissions Agon is the way to go.

 

Ebay money back guarantee is too far, posted on September 19, 2014 at 05:02:34
Trouser Trout
Audiophile

Posts: 286
Location: New England
Joined: August 25, 2010
 Not only price wise but the money back guarantee they push on every page of the site. The seller is the one on the line for this including shipping both ways. They freeze money in your Paypal account until the claim is determined, usually in the buyer's favor. If you don't have money in your account it is still a nightmare because you can't purchase anything until you add cash from your bank account which takes 3 business days. They won't take a CC payment. I missed out on a couple nice amps because of this.

 

RE: How can anyone be OK with this? , posted on September 19, 2014 at 05:48:55
middleground
 Audiophiles are a trusting lot. You, Sir, obviously are NOT an audiophile!

Oh BTW I totaly agree with you.

 

RE: How can anyone be OK with this? , posted on September 19, 2014 at 06:03:57
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 Why in the world would I care if my credit card info is all over the internet? And why would I care if someone should steal my card info and go on a spending spree? My exposure is a grand total of $50 provided I report the fraudulent activity in a timely manner.

The facts of the matter are the banks, and merchants, are the ones that have the exposure in all of this. Naturally they would like all of us to get hysterical about this because that is what is in their best interest. Make everyone paranoid about protecting their credit card data, etc.

I for one am not the least bit concerned about credit card security, etc., because I have virtually no exposure. I can deal with a $50 hit.

Debit cards are a different matter and I won't use them. Exposure is much broader with less regulation on the banking sector if their should be any fraud.

 

This would mean. . ., posted on September 19, 2014 at 06:10:01
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
 giving up ALL usage of credit and debit cards--any electronic transaction can be hacked. I don't see how Audiogon's practice is riskier than any other on-line transaction. If anything, it is far less likely that a hacker with some advance malware would target Audiogon (such software has a very limited life--until such is detected); it makes more sense to Target someone like Home Depot where tens of millions of accounts can be attacked and exploited before the malware is detected.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 19, 2014 at 07:18:02
DrN
Audiophile

Posts: 366
Joined: January 31, 2014
 I don't care I don't use them anyway. Buy or sell.
Screw em!

 

apparently you're out of the loop. . ., posted on September 19, 2014 at 09:08:12
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 For awhile there Agon was getting hacked every other week.






'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

I was vaguely aware. . ., posted on September 19, 2014 at 11:53:26
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
 that they had suffered from one of those annoying hacks of their main page. I don't recall anything about someone getting into their system to get information about their users. Is that what happened?

I don't quite understand what aspect of Audiogon's practice you are objecting to. If it is the fact that they so much as have information on those who transact business, such as credit card information, then you are objecting to ALL businesses that accept credit cards on line. They all have that sort of information. If you are objecting to their new billing practice of automatically charging for services rendered, that is a different issue wholly separate from a security issue.

 

Yes-careful to use the Agon Auction system, posted on September 19, 2014 at 15:35:11
Des
Audiophile

Posts: 2110
Location: Great Barrier Reef
Joined: August 3, 2000
Contributor
  Since: August 2, 2000
 A few years ago I was selling a $20k Item on Auction

the bid was $12K up to the last 40 mins--I have done hundreds of Ebay similar and knew the

serious bidders would hit in the last few minutes--imagine my chagrin when I noticed a couple of

bids had been withdrawn and the tally dropped to $8k

It stayed there to the finish--I checked the Bids and saw NO further bidding in the approx 40 min

timeframe to closure.

Concerned I contacted Agon-- yes they answered!!-- and told me they had detected a blocking

on some of their Auctions that prevented last minute bidding--whew!

and they allowed my case to be deemed a flawed transaction and they vetoed the sale.

Luckily I was able to sell via the normal Classifieds at later date --but lost some momentum and $$'s.

Re the current controversy --I also am not too happy with disclosing CC details but let's face it--it is for some like me

in a far country plus in the rural outback a door to sell like virtually no other-I do have good success with the AA Ads as well

though.

Bit of a gripe when they decided -unannounced --to freeze updating the funds one had in their Payment Piggy bank

I went to place an $100 Classified --I had $87 cr in my account the Ad was blocked and I was informed that my Cr amount could

NOT be used as part payment for any future Advts and NO refunds will be given.

Guess I've donated $87 to their retirement fund.

Yes their PR needs some serious rethinking I feel.

End of rant

Des



 

It's VERY different, posted on September 19, 2014 at 17:01:22
J.Mac
Audiophile

Posts: 3553
Location: Colorado
Joined: November 6, 2002
 Amazon spends millions of dollars every year on software development, systems administration and data security. It's a very big deal if their records are compromised. They can afford to hire some of the best minds on the planet. They can't afford NOT to.

Audiogon is minuscule in comparison. They may have an in-house developer, but if they do, he's probably the brother-in-law or nephew of the site owner. More likely, they contract all of their software development to an outside company. That could be just about anybody.

There's no guarantee that your records are absolutely safe at Amazon, but I guarantee you that they're many times safer than with someone like Audiogon. I've done work on small web sites developed by some amazingly incompetent developers who know absolutely nothing about security. I've seen credit card numbers stored unencrypted in plain text in a database. I've seen member passwords stored unencrypted. You have no idea how good the programming is at Audiogon (Actually, you do: They had massive problems when they launched their new site a couple of years ago, and they continue to have many smaller problems.)

Amazon, you're taking a calculated risk. Audiogon? Sheer stupidity if you allow them to store a CC number.

 

I agree with you 100%!!, posted on September 20, 2014 at 09:03:08
rlw
Audiophile

Posts: 3347
Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL
Joined: August 29, 2006
 I have stopped using PayPal entirely. And this was done after I purchased a Seiko watch from a Verified eBay/PayPal seller. The box that I received was suspiciously light. In fact, my postman said "What did you order, an orchid?" So, I opened it in front of him.

As it turned out, the box was empty - NO WATCH! I filed a dispute with PayPal and even had a notarized statement from my postman indicating what he saw. PayPal told me "tough shit" and refused to make good on it. That was the last time for those pirates!

If I can't buy something with a credit card, cash, money order, or cashier's check it doesn't get bought. And when I sell something I require a money order, cashier's check, cash, or personal check (after it clears) for payment. So far I've been able to buy and sell anything I wish and I've not been boned again...

-RW-

 

RE: Duh., posted on September 20, 2014 at 09:19:03
Br3098
Audiophile

Posts: 255
Location: Southern California
Joined: December 23, 2009
 Gents, I received a response from Audiogon yesterday:

To clarify your questions regarding the credit card requirement, we are now requesting credit card information primarily for identity and security reasons.

This action will help prevent fraud activity. When you register or update your credit card information, Audiogon asks your bank to authorize its use. This allows us to verify your identity and the validity of your credit card.

By providing a credit card, you are also authorizing Audiogon to charge the card that you have on file, to settle your account.
Thank you for being a loyal Audiogon member, we appreciate your business.

mbnx01, you were correct and I was wrong. Please accept my apology and mea culpa

 

RE: Duh., posted on September 27, 2014 at 05:07:32
Audiogabby
Audiophile

Posts: 378
Joined: June 5, 2000
 They will charge your card upon acceptance of an offer. What if the transaction goes south because you find out at a later time there was something wrong with the item? I had an experience over a year ago where the seller used 10 year old photos of an amp. He claims his camera wasnt working. I found out trying to find reviews to read about the amp. after my purchase. He copied the add word by word. After that I cancelled my purchase and went through a big mess as the seller wanted his money. I refused and asked for current photos he couldn't produce. If that was to happen today It will create another problem to get those fees back.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 27, 2014 at 12:24:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 This discourages me from EVER using AudioGon again. I used them YEARS ago to sell an amp.

I'd love to see their Security Policy and reimbursement policy when 50,000 credit card numbers get HACKED and sold online to Scam Artists.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR, posted on September 27, 2014 at 13:37:40
drrsutliff
Audiophile

Posts: 16
Location: Florida
Joined: October 27, 2008
 Not defending this move by AudioGoN but let's at least read what is in the updated protocol before we focus on an issue that may not be central to the changes. I personally object paying my sellers fee based on the "listing" price and not the final negotiated price. Haven't brought myself to agree to the new changes.

From AudiogoN:

"Oh Ya, We Don’t Store Your Credit Card Information

In fact, it is never even passed from your web browser to our server. We’re using Stripe for all credit card processing. When you submit your credit card information through a form on our website, it is transmitted directly to Stripe from your web browser over an encrypted (SSL) connection. It is never passed to our server and we don’t store it anywhere within our application or database. Stripe stores your credit card information on their servers and they are serious about security. When it comes time to process a transaction against your credit card we send a charge request to Stripe and they do the rest. That’s it."



Rick

 

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