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Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?

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Posted on July 27, 2014 at 18:01:34
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 System ... Musical Fidelity Nu Vista CD, Bat VK-3i Preamp, Musical Fidelity A300cr power amp, Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Tuner, B&W N804 speakers, Cardas Golden Reference speaker (bi-wire) and ICs. I realize my rig is a bit dated, but it sounds great. If I were to upgrade, how much better could it get? Have I hit the point of diminishing returns where a lot more $$ gets only a small % increase in sound quality? If not, what component would you suggest upgrading and why? Thanks to all.

 

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To my mind it's always been the same. , posted on July 27, 2014 at 18:17:52
StephenJK
 The ratio of cost to improvement is 10:1. Mind you, this is just my opinion. What it means is that as you decide to improve your sound system, the closer you get the further you move away. The increase in sound quality, or perceived improvement is with an exponential increase in cost.

But all is not lost. The options are to buy used equipment but more importantly to realize that there is no ultimate goal. What I have realized is that I will tweak and change hardware if it's affordable - meaning not very often. My focus is more on finding music that I don't have but think I might enjoy.

Hope this helps.

 

Your focus is my focus., posted on July 27, 2014 at 18:38:13
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 And similarly I realise that the audio side of my hobby is best served by used and vintage pieces. For me, what helps bridge any gap between desire and affordability is the imperative to have more fun. This will usually lead me to explore more and try out things that are new to me (if old, to someone else) and that are often well cared for and have lost most of the value they are going to lose.

There are few things in this hobby right now to which the right answer (for me) isn't usually "more music, sir!". (Though I confess, form time to time it is more correctly phrased "more tubes!" or "more styli!").


Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

I agree, but there are many paths. , posted on July 27, 2014 at 18:45:07
StephenJK
 I don't want to wax philosophically but there is more in the message than the meaning.

Meaning that it's far better to be able to play interesting and innovative music than to have that "perfect" system that can never be.

 

My system has two states, posted on July 27, 2014 at 19:52:42
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 1. Makes me want to listen to the music.
2. Makes me want to do something else.

Yes, this is a very 'binary' way of looking at it.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 20:35:23
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...everyone who has spent over $10,000 probably has.

I see you've invested in power cords, power conditioning and vibration control.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest treating your room, which will do more than any new component.

My system is over 12 years old but I still love the sound and I don't want to mess it up.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 20:38:19
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 I've treated the room with GIK Acoustics products ... Corner tri-traps, absorption panels, spot panels, and a monster bass trap. Good stuff and a great upgrade.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 20:46:54
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...then the question becomes - what do you want from your sound that you don't have.

Is it satisfying now?

Do you look forward to listening to it?

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 20:56:12
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 I like my system very much and look forward to my listening sessions.I was just wondering whether it could get any better and, if so, what the price to performance ratio would be. From what I have gleaned so far, it appears that I would have to spend a fair amount of $$ to get a small percentage increase in sound betterment or difference. So, rather than go for that small percentage increment, I think I should continue to enjoy my rig as it is and focus on getting more music rather than more gear. For a gear geek like me, that's not an easy task.

 

Why fret the small stuff?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 21:17:03
LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 66808
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003
 get your ears cleaned professionally and you will hear an improvement. Spend the money saved on new music. Enjoy what you have....

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 21:35:15
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I have a lot of "dated" gear in my systems.... IMO, newer is not necessarily better........

 

Many of us reached that point with this, posted on July 27, 2014 at 21:43:42
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012

KLH model twenty-one (or the eight, or the Advent 400, or the Tivoli.)

That doesn't mean we should have stopped; after all, Henry didn't.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 02:54:11
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 You probably have been experiencing diminishing marginal returns (enjoyment increases at diminishing rates) for the last of your audio ride.

Do you mean that your last marginal improvement in your enjoyment was just about equal to the marginal cost of getting it?

I think many people stop when they get close to this, but are up against a large capital cost to improve room acoustics, at least i have.

 

You are suffering from boredom, posted on July 28, 2014 at 05:33:33
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 Just my opinion. You have certainly sweated out all the other details and I'm sure your setup sounds great.

Take on a new challenge. Get into vinyl. Or build a music server that has to be rebuilt every two years due to changing standards. Or chuck everything, build a kit SET tube amp and go HE with open baffles or horns.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 05:42:14
rkeman
Audiophile

Posts: 597
Location: Florida
Joined: July 26, 2003
 Acoustic treatments are an essential element in nearly any domestic room, and it is great that this has been addressed in your situation. The next step is electronic room correction and addition of dedicated subwoofers. Multiple subwoofers (2-4) smooth the bass response, increase headroom and lower distortion in the rest of the system. Electronic room correction can improve bass smoothness even further in many instances. A number of high quality room correction solutions are available including some that don't require additional analog-to-digital conversion for digital sources.

 

RE: Horns and kit SET amps, posted on July 28, 2014 at 06:44:02
geoffkait
 The final step before turning to religion.

Yes, I'm only joking.

 

I recommend ceiling diffusors, posted on July 28, 2014 at 08:12:15
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



I have looked at your system profile and it seems to me that the treatments you have done fall into the category of "reducing bad room effects" rather than "enhancing good musical effects."

The easiest way to get more good music into your room is adding pure diffusion to your ceiling. I'd recommend Auralex Wave Prisms on the basis of looks. There are more effective engineered solutions but I think they look industrial and don't look good in a private home.

A cloud of six 2 x 2 foot diffusor panels, three wide by two deep, centered on the first-reflection point between your speakers and your listening chair, should provide excellent payback. You could also go three by three panels and put the orphan panel (they come two to a box) on the back wall directly behind your head, if that area is clear.

Best of luck,

John

 

RE: To my mind it's always been the same. , posted on July 28, 2014 at 08:52:09
Goober58
 IME comparing apples to apples a 4 or 5 to one ratio is what I found to be a general rule. But if the system isn't right** in the first place horizontal or downward moves are just as likely to bring improvements.

Spending twice or even 10 times the money only guarantees more spending - it's wishful thinking to believe it means better sound.

**A kickass great high value for the dollar system that's just about perfect for it's owner.

 

Add "Musical Bliss" to your "Sonic Bliss", posted on July 28, 2014 at 08:59:24
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 You'll never know how much music you've really got until you put together a music server. I purchased a couple of Logitech Touch players (no longer available unfortunately) and store all my CD, MP3, and hi-rez downloaded content on my office server.

I suddenly rediscovered lots of old friends that I had forgotten about. The convenience goes through the roof especially when you use a smartphone or pad device (I use both) as wireless remotes. You can instantly access anything in your digital library.

I spend more time now listening to music now that retrieving, loading and putting away shiny disks is no longer part of the process. Not to mention making copies or schlepping them about for use with the other system. Four systems have equal access to the same library.

 

If you have a desire to upgrade - it would be the MuFi amp, IMO., posted on July 28, 2014 at 09:10:00
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 My experience with that company's 2 pieces (not the amp in question), and reading abundant reviews and user feedback, tells me that it's strictly middle-of-the-road gear, especially the budget end of their lineup.

Of course, borrowing or buying new piece with money back guarantee would be ideal - and cost-effectiveness of the upgrade is always a big question, which only you could answer.

 

You tell us?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 09:35:00
Goober58
 When I got to the point I felt more money would be a waste I started a second system. When that system got to the same point I digitized all my music. Now as I'm working on my 3rd system I'm going to lots of live shows.

 

RE: Horns and kit SET amps, posted on July 28, 2014 at 09:48:40
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 Oh, I think we are already pretty devout believers in the gear we select. Making a radical jump is more akin to changing our faith rather than acquiring it. Personnally I fully jumped to the light of ever glowing tubes after years of faithful SS. :-)

 

Depends on the room, but my "upgrade" wouldn't cost any more $$, posted on July 28, 2014 at 10:43:06
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 If your room would support, I'd swap out your Nautilus 804 speakers for a pair of last/later generation Matrix 801 or 802. Should be about even as far as money goes, but I find the 801 and/or the 802 to be a big step up, even though the Matrix line is quite a bit older than the Nautilus series.


 

RE: You are suffering from boredom, posted on July 28, 2014 at 12:32:00
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 Perhaps. I was curious as to price/performance ratio after one gets to a certain point in the "journey." Perhaps I have a case of "upgrade-itis," but it is dissipating quickly. After asking myself the question "what is the goal or target if I do decide to upgrade from what already sounds great to me?," I couldn't come up with a rational answer. I think that, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

 

And if you've reached that point, what's next?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 12:38:32
genungo
 Would you be happy enough to forget about changing anything for the next 10 years? Or would Audiophilia Nervosa have you scratching around for the next possible "upgrade", regardless?

 

Dare I mention the obvious?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 12:57:18
mwhitmore
Audiophile

Posts: 1720
Location: San Francisco
Joined: September 17, 2008
 Vinyl. And a turntable.

 

Personally, posted on July 28, 2014 at 13:00:44
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 I would leave it as is...........of course you really should have a nice turntable but that's a personal choice
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

Yup. Off to the record store. -t, posted on July 28, 2014 at 13:19:16
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: If you have a desire to upgrade - it would be the MuFi amp, IMO., posted on July 28, 2014 at 14:11:13
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 What amp would you suggest as a replacement? I prefer dual mono with at least 200 wpc to drive the B&Ws.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 14:17:07
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 1297
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
 Enjoy what you have and buy more music.

 

You have a GREAT setup, sit back and enjoy it!!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 15:21:20
rlw
Audiophile

Posts: 3347
Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL
Joined: August 29, 2006
 Seriously....

-RW-

 

Spot on, John, good recommendation!!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 15:23:08
rlw
Audiophile

Posts: 3347
Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL
Joined: August 29, 2006
 Bravo!!

-RW-

 

RE: You have a GREAT setup, sit back and enjoy it!!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 15:32:47
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 Thanks, RW.

 

Have you tried these ceiling diffusors?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 15:58:17
genungo
 I have read that diffusors do not always work that well unless they are positioned several feet away from the listener. If I recall correctly, the idea is that the diffused sound needs to travel a certain distance in order to to coalesce again before reaching the ears (Floyd Toole suggested that the back wall was the best place to use diffusion devices in the home, but I'm not sure if that means he was against ceiling placement).

If the above is true, typical 8 foot ceilings combined with 40 inch ear height (when sitting) might cause proximity problems. What do you think?

 

RE: One thing you might consider..., posted on July 28, 2014 at 16:36:49
Todd A.
 It may have been mentioned by others, but I'm somewhat of a similar audio fan to yourself, in that I look for maximum return for minimum outlay, and most of my music was in digital format. I recently added a Cambridge Stream Magic 6, and have been ripping my library to lossless files. Admittedly, I'm 60 years old so my hearing is probably not what it once was, but I can't tell the difference from the CD, and the difference in convenience in unbelievable. You can use your iPhone or Droid as a remote, and your entire library is as your fingertips. No more searching for the CD you want to play.

Just a thought.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns? Nah!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 16:54:33
mcbuddah
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: June 8, 2012
 My advice is to ignore suggestions that you can quantify the increase in sound quality with ratios and probabilities like "10:1 increase in cost over quality". There are many things that you can do to make your system even better. Some may cost a lot but much improvement can be had by experimentation based on listening and training yourself to be more skilled in system set-up and room treatments.

Before retiring a couple of years ago, I earned well enough buy many nice components and it sounded very nice most of the time. I had an excellent dealer who set up most of my gear and allowed me to borrow gear for up to a month to try at home before purchase, and a fantastic trade-up program that led to a system of well-matched components that together cost somewhere North of $30K (1990 dollars). I listened when I could but spent a lot of time on my career. I made good money and had little time, so whenever I got "upgraditis", I threw money at it.

Being retired now, I am rich in time and wary of spending down my savings and so I committed myself to learning as much as I could about setting up and maintaining my equipment myself whenever possible. Lately, experience has led me to get really serious about things like vibration control and EMI/RF mitigation, cartridge set-up, SRA, azimuth, and speaker placement. I can answer for myself questions such as "how good/bad is class D", "how important is it to run clean power?" and "how much change in vertical tracking force does occur when adjusting the VTF by 1 mm? and does it matter?" An experiment with a single slab of wood, some used BearPaws and some isoblocks led me to buy and install solid brass footers, isoblocks and maple platforms under every power supply and component in my system with stellar results, all for under $1500. Getting serious about cleaning and treatment of male and female connections on ICs, power cords and fuses two or three times a year costs peanuts and can bring your system up another notch or two.

Fortunately for me, I also bought a lot of records before retiring and now have more than 3000 albums to listen to. Half have never been opened, or were played only once or twice and now I have time to really listen. You are in an excellent place with your current satisfaction with your system. Your CD player may be one of the best ever made, but you could make a long-term commitment to trying little changes to its setup and cabling to see just how good it can be. I would like to someday have a chance to invite Kevin Voecks over to listen to how gorgeous the sound is coming from his 1990 B-types now that they are in a system with 21st century wiring, outlets, platforms, fuses, etc. Don't be afraid to experiment and revisit things you thought were already handled.

Cheers an good listening.


Everything is going to the dogs

 

THIS!!!!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 17:17:12
Prisoners
Audiophile

Posts: 4493
Location: Chicago
Joined: June 13, 2004
 I recently finished loading all of my CDs on an external HD and streaming them to my system. Having all of them at my choosing from the couch is the best improvement I can make because it means more listening and less time looking. Next step is to improve the DAC, but I'm thrilled even at this point.

 

Great advice! Thanks. (nt)., posted on July 28, 2014 at 17:54:41
RandyB&W
Audiophile

Posts: 317
Joined: February 20, 2002
 nt

 

That answer would be: YES, posted on July 28, 2014 at 18:43:19
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000




Yes, I have recommended them, the exact same product, and supervised their installation, in a large-ish room that has a normal-room ceiling.

Nothing but smiles.

Over time and space, the scattering eventually prevails.

JM

 

No (nt), posted on July 28, 2014 at 19:14:33
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 .
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

Switch out the power amplifier, posted on July 29, 2014 at 02:18:08
Tom Schuman
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Location: Bremen
Joined: October 22, 2003
 I hate to feed the nervosa, and I think the system is tough to beat without a significant outlay, but you might look into a tube amplifier with balanced inputs, for one thing so you can use the true balanced outputs of the BAT.
It depends how much power you need. Some quality tube watts can be plenty for those 804s if you don't need to headbang or don't have a large room.
EAR comes to mind. A BAT amplifier or course, like the VK55. Or something like the Audio Research Reference 110, (with balanced inputs) would definitely take the system to a new level!! If you can find one used (it's discontinued).

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 05:16:07
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 If you enjoy what you own- then you are 'there'.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 07:22:46
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1990
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 Everything beyond an Iphone is The Point of Diminishing Return.

 

RE: Have I Reached The Point Of Diminishing Returns?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 15:41:04
ErikM
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Location: New Jersey
Joined: November 13, 2004
 You have a nice system. If I was to make a recommendation I'd look at the front end since digital has gotten quite a bit better and I'd look at speakers..

 

Wow, beautiful room. nt, posted on July 29, 2014 at 21:03:56
Rick W
 nt

 

Yeah, thanks. All hardwoods, no MDF; since then, upgraded to..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 07:26:49
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Alexandria XLFs.

ATB,

John

 

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