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Room Dimension Questions

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Posted on July 22, 2014 at 10:55:21
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Greetings All,

I'm working on a house remodel and I'm fighting over a few feet with the architect. Well, not really fighting, trying to figure out where to use about 3 feet of "extra" space in the design. I've already lost the big fight about adding onto the front of the house, they tell me it's a budget breaker.

So here's the situation. The room is to be shared as a music/movie room. It is just a small bedroom, currently 10 X 11.5 (used to be my music room, then the babies came). We are taking out the closet and buying 3 feet in one direction. The space then becomes 13 X 11.5. There is another 3 feet available between the adjoining bath and bedroom. Is it worth my arguing over? The best I could get would be 13 X 14.5. Most likely would be 13 X 13.5, or 13 X 12.5. I know all those dimensions are nearly square and for most that's a no no, but would I really notice? It never really bothered me in the smaller nearly square room before. I could also spend some money on treatments and appropriate speakers if necessary. Ceiling height might also be variable depending on cost. I've got some solid reasons for taking the 2 foot option, but don't know if the 1 foot option would be worth the effort to move that wall.

Either way I'll just be happy being able to bring my stuff out of the closet and put it back in use, assuming it's still functional.

 

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RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 13:01:12
geezerrocket
 Getting rid of standing waves is in my opinion the biggest benefit for proper room dimensions.

Obviously, most of us have to take what we get when we purchase a home however, since you have a say, you may as well get it "right" from the beginning.

Here is a link to Decware's site. Steve knows a awful lot about the subject through trial and error.

Room dimensions are NOT the end all solution to great sound as there are other variables including absorbtion, diffusion, seat position etc.....but this is a good place to start.


Good luck.....










 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 13:33:01
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Gut instinct would tell me to go for the most out-of-square option possible.

I would seriously consider some acoustical treatment and the earlier the better.

I have not tried these people myself but I've heard good things about them, they are very reasonably priced and have an advice service which I believe is free:

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 14:07:32
Jim Treanor
Audiophile

Posts: 2167
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: June 1, 2003
 Not only free but quick and very helpful. I e-mailed photos and a plan-view diagram of my somewhat problematic living-dining/listening room to GIK's president one evening and received a phone call from their chief acoustical engineer the next morning. The conversation lasted about an hour and answered all of my questions without the remotest hint of sales pitch. I've now completed the first phase of the acoustical treatment re-do with their products as recommended and am extremely happy with the result.

Jim

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 14:40:09
genungo
 13 X 14.5 would be best, bigger is usually better in room acoustics.

High ceilings are a blessing. If you did nothing else to the room, raising the ceiling would provide benefits.

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 15:24:30
middleground
 Avoid squares.

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 15:29:32
Inmate51
 I'd like to chew on this for a day or so, but my guess is that the architect wants to move along and get your money. So...

First of all, I'm curious as to why you're paying an architect, since this appears to be mostly a matter of knocking out some non-load-bearing walls and running some electrical to new outlets. You're not doing any exterior wall extensions or foundation changes, are you? Doesn't seem so. My neighbor did this sort of simple rennovation a couple years, and he didn't even hire a contractor - his "handy man" did the whole thing while the owner told him what to do. In any case, the contractor you use should be quite capable of doing anything the architect seems to be doing, so I'd seriously consider losing the architect and put that extra few thousand into other areas of the project. One area is to address issues of noise isolation - things like wall construction, sound leaks through electrical outlets, structure-borne noise via joists and attic, minimizing air-handling noise, window type and installation, etc. Architects aren't equipped to know about these things acoustically - professional acoustical consultants are. Call Richard Schrag at RBDG (Russ Berger Design Group - http://rbdg.com/team-member/richard/), tell him what you want to do, and get a quote/estimate for what you want. He can do all this stuff in his sleep, including architectural drawings for the contractor. He may or may not think the project is too small for him, but it never hurts to ask.

Regarding dimensions, "out of square" is best. There are people who say there are "golden" dimension ratios, but you can largely ignor them, since there are several other factors which come into play, and you'll still have to deal with room modes. High on the list are non-parallel side walls and a high ceiling (at least 9 feet, preferably 10, preferably sloped).

Lastly, at least for now, I'd go for the largest dimensions possible. As it is, even 13 x 14.5 is a bit on the small side. If you can bump the 13 up to 15, and the 14.5 up to 17 or 18, and do a ceiling of 10, you'd be in very good shape - depending on where the doors and windows would be.

(Tell me again, how many times are you going to do this rennovation?)

:)

 

Also..., posted on July 22, 2014 at 16:06:13
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...avoid dimensions with common divisors - that can be divided by 2, 3, etc.

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 16:38:55
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Well, I left off the other project details. The complete project is adding a second story with two bedrooms and a large shared bath for our two young daughters, as well as a small addition to the side of the house, remodeling the master bedroom, bathroom, living room and kitchen all while trying to maintain neighborhood context, so the architect stays, and the engineer as well. Besides, she's quite charming and I enjoy our conversations!

I'm limited to this room and the options I outlined, all other space is accounted for or outside our budget and we're already pushing our FAR. I may have an option to steal some more room from an adjoining bath, it would be a couple more feet at most, but it would evidently very costly and we have to see where the rest of the budget goes before that's a viable option.

So I'm working with what I've got. It's a small house on a small lot and we're trying to make the most of it since here in Silly Valley a real upgrade would be a ridiculous $1.5M, and that won't get us much more than we're getting post construction.

It looks like avoiding squares while maximizing size and ceiling height/slope are my best bets. It's all a compromise right now. I will certainly request sound isolation building techniques be used and will look into room treatments during and after construction.

Thanks all for the insight. I've spent some time researching here and I think I'm armed enough for now for our next conversation.

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 22, 2014 at 18:29:10
lochrider
Audiophile

Posts: 493
Location: Southeast Minnesota
Joined: March 15, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 17, 2002
 Are you stating that the adjacent bathroom and closet open into your proposed listening room? If so, you may have a good listening space.

Many years ago I lived in a dwelling that forced me to use a dedicated listening room having an 8-1/2' ceiling and a 13' x 13' floor plan. However, that room had a walk-in closet and a bathroom each of which had a 6' x 6' additional floor space.

I configured the speakers and listening position in a nearly equilateral triangular set up and left the doors open to each additional space. Speakers were out from a solid front wall about 4-1/2' and my listening position was between the two doorways about a 1-1/2' out from the rear wallof the room. The total valume of the combined spaces distributed and smoothed room nodes amd modes and rendered a decent listening experience with good soundstage. Adding a few acoustical treatments tamed HF reflections.

You may end up quite satisfied. Best wishes,

Ian

 

Room Dimensions aside, posted on July 23, 2014 at 07:48:57
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 Having just constructed my own listening room, a couple of suggestions. Use "Quiet Rock" instead of regular sheetrock for sound isolation (more expensive, but worth it in the long run). Makes the room a bit quieter for the listener, and also for those outside the room.

Also try to get a dedicated electrical line or two to the room for your equipment. This is easy to do when the room is being constructed, but much harder and more expensive after the fact.

And then, yes, room treatments are essential. Enjoy the process, though construction is terribly stressful!

 

RE: Room Dimensions aside, posted on July 23, 2014 at 08:47:03
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Thanks for the tips. Those are definitely on the list. Not looking forward to construction, but as long as there's a glimmer at the end of the tunnel it should be bearable.

Enjoy your new space!

 

RE: Room Dimension Questions, posted on July 24, 2014 at 21:35:48
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Avoiding squares is reasonable advice when coupled with the OTHER advice to avoid dimensions in ratio multiples. Like 3:2 or 4:1
And while I generally respect Geezer's input, I don't know where his link got those 'ratios'. The ONE ratio which seems to work best would be PHI = 1.618 and is the result of crunching the numbers in the Fibonacci Series. Buildings from the Great Pyramid to the UN building have used that ratio as part of the design process.

Something like THIS room mode calculator might be of benefit.

Also, IF you can, when doing new construction, use the 'staggered stud' technique so the 2 sides of a common wall are decoupled from one another. Some sound absorbant material woven between the studs at that point will help even more.


Too much is never enough

 

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