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Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?

85.19.92.6
Posted on July 13, 2014 at 04:49:03
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 I have noticed sometimes people praising a certain product and this is fine of course and also helpful.
Then out of the blue they mention a particular product with extremely negative words without mentioning by the way the conditions of listening.
In some cases i know the product and i am sure it does not deserve the treatment.
My point is ... why this behaviour ?
It seems to me that the real goal is not to inform people about the quality of one product but more to destroy the reputation of the other.
I think that a product that at least in some conditions is able to give a very good performance deserves respect and a better selection of the other components in the chain.
Sorry for the outburst but when i see good products bashed in un unfair manner i get upset.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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or the opposite, posted on July 13, 2014 at 04:50:44
bullethead
 I've seen crap praised as well. to each his own I would say.

 

RE: or the opposite, posted on July 13, 2014 at 05:19:05
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Yes but this is even a worse attitude.
when you see an ugly woman i do not think you go on screaming how ugly she is. Moreover this is a case in which the ugly woman is a beauty.
And i am so confused that i wanted to write about it because i listened to the unit and the sound was not only good, but spectacular.
This is a clear attack to a brand. At least for me.
And a specific product concurrent for price.
And also TOTL ... so people are led to think ... if the best is so bad just think the rest.
Well i can say that even entry level models from this brand sound very good.
This is really unfair.
So why not talk positively ? he did not like it ? ... then move on.
I do not want to mention the brand and the product but he knows.


Kind regards,
bg

 

Another slant ... , posted on July 13, 2014 at 05:47:43
three_sox
 ... I don't altogether disagree with you but it is impossible to precisely know the motive of everybody.

There can be several reasons for genuine disparity of how products sound.

I think the two biggest variables when differentiating audio products are:~

1/ The individual; we simply do not all hear the same or have the same priorities.

2/ Different rooms interact with different components, most obviously, speakers.

Also, one could be listening to a faulty product.

However, as you say, some people might be having a bad day and just feel like crucifying a particular product, there is no guarantees the person doing the hatchet job has even heard the product.

Remember, with audio components everyone has an opinion, but without reference, opinions mean little. Even then, there are no guarantees any one individual will agree with another's assessment (good or bad)


 

Without personal experiences, good or bad, fora..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 06:57:27
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 ...like this would not exist.
Personally I find the bad ones substantially more valuable than purely good ones.

 

RE: Without personal experiences, good or bad, fora..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 07:08:57
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi, actually i wanted to reply asking more about the reason of this bad opinion
But when i know for sure that the product is good ... well i prefer to avoid discussion probably ending in some insults or similar.
He simply cannot have any basis for this negative judgement.
I am sure the person will be evaluated correctly with time and more posts.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 07:33:33
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "Then out of the blue they mention a particular product with extremely negative words without mentioning by the way the conditions of listening.
In some cases i know the product and i am sure it does not deserve the treatment."

To be of value reviews and reports of experiences need to be open and honest. We are not professionals writing papers in reviewed journals, we are hobbyists reporting our experiences for the benefit and interest of other's of our ilk.

Anyone with significant experience with home audio knows that there are few absolutes, that box A in system B may suck but in system C be heavenly. That's "System Synergy" for you. If you think about it that's also the main reason that sites like AA even exist.

I've got many technical notions re why this is so and many decades of experience with it. While I "don't approve", it's the case none the less and denial is bootless. So that means that my experience is a potentially useful data point for you, nothing more. Thanks to AA, Stereophile and all that you can get often get numerous reports of the same item in various systems listened to by various ears, now THAT's valuable data in my book. We are all at least the same species so there's a good chance that if most everyone seems to love an item that you will at least like it. Not a sure thing, but that lowers the risk.

On another cant, even if the gear was perfect and all of us heard the same, we don't live in the same environment. Shoot the gear I love to listen to in living room would be lousy in the study.

Sooo here's what I recommend...

1. Figure out a set of posters and reviewers that have similar reactions to various gear that you do. i.e. similar tastes.

2. Seek out reviews done in a similar environment to the one in which you intend to use the gear.

3. Never buy anything that you can't return.

Have fun! This is a hobby, an avocation, it doesn't really matter what others think, it's really all about your ears, tastes and conditions. Our experiences are just data points.

Rick

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 08:14:41
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and i agree with your comments
But an audio chain is composed by many components
The fact to put the blame on one specific element of the chain without even mentioning the others it is for me a clear sign of prejudice towards that component or more in general the brand.
I heard the same component to sound perfectly fine on another occasion.
It has received praise by many audio magazine as it deserves.
But ok ... i get the sense. There is freedom of speech also for the incompetent.
Kind regards,
bg

 

I didn't realise..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 08:16:02
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 ...that you had a specific reply in mind.

Generally one needs to take quite some time on any forum until one knows a persons individual preferences.
For example if a hypothetical someone loves tube amps and planars or OBs that that persons comments on transistor amps and box speakers is of little relevance to me.

Similarly on a professional/magazine level I trust sound engineers much more than your common or garden HiFi rag reviewer. After all recording engineers are pretty much the only people who get to compare what comes out of a speaker to the real thing.

 

RE: "There is freedom of speech also for the incompetent.", posted on July 13, 2014 at 08:33:56
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Fortunately our competence is not quite, totally, absolutely determined by your opinion...

Or mine.

Rick

 

This wears thin, posted on July 13, 2014 at 08:43:39
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004
 Go to CA and read a few recent past posts (especially mine) regarding opinions about the MSA power cord. These 'only positive, agreeable posts have value' threads are manipulative and an attempt to control people's perspectives.



"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

 

For me those opinions can be far more helpful than a magazine review, posted on July 13, 2014 at 09:09:17
Goober58
 People who have built and use their systems like I have may have opinions that may be useful to me.

This kind of gets back to the importance of listing your equipment.

 

RE: "There is freedom of speech also for the incompetent.", posted on July 13, 2014 at 09:17:10
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 When the consensus about the quality of a product is so general that many magazines give it praise even if i had not listened to it for me is ok.
If you excuse i tend to give more credit lets say to TAS that an unknown man just spitting on a high level product
Maybe he has asked for a loan and refused ?
It seems more a personal thing with the brand/importer.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 09:46:33
plugmein
Audiophile

Posts: 304
Location: mother-earth
Joined: March 4, 2007
 I find reading reviews of not only equipment that people have had bad experiences with helpful but also how manufacturers deal with issues and their dealer network very informative. If a manufacturer doesn't support their dealers then their equipment no matter how good is a boat anchor IMHO.

 

"Maybe he has asked for a loan and refused ?", posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:39:35
axolotl
Audiophile

Posts: 3955
Location: So. California
Joined: September 10, 2002
 Then, he should tell us that information in his review (or non-review, in reality).

In that way, we can be informed about his judgment and that it holds no water as an evaluation of how the product functions and operates in an audio system.



axolotl

 

RE: Why ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:58:13
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 1. Americans are more suspicious and resentful of "authority" than Europeans. For example, Our Constitutional rights protect us from our government(s), whereas many constitutions in European countries are based on the idea that governments are meant to protect people.

2. A strong belief that "truth" can be found only through the complete independence of the truth tellers from authority (and economic incentives).

3. An element of grumpiness combined with an American delight to indulge in constitutionally protected "unpopular speech" of all kinds.

4. Reality: reviewers pull their punches and replace them with pillow pats.

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:03:13
abs1
 A Forum like AA is supposed to be a platform for audio enthusiasts to air their opinions and to speak their minds. I find that quite refreshing when compared to the almost fawning reviews and articles that I find in the glossy rags and certain online 'sites. What would you do that is different? Would you censor the posts that you don't agree with? Would you delete the posts that you consider negative? Perhaps you might start with your own posts! Personally, I find the rhetorical content and incessant blathering off-putting but I'd never request that you stop posting here or that you alter the content of your posts to please me.

Live and let live. You are not the content police. If you find another Inmates comments distasteful you always have the option to ignore his posts or to scroll by the entire thread as you see fit.

I happen to find much of the behavior that you're complaining about in this thread quite helpful. There should be nothing threatening about viewing a perspective that's contrary to your own.

Cheers,
Al

 

RE: Why ?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:20:00
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi i see but this is much more down to the earth
It is just an issue of intellectual honesty
Lets think how complex can be an audio chain
Source, cablings, amp, speakers, listening room, recordings .. quality of the mains.
One detects a bad sound and the culprit is with certainty located in only one element of the chain ? absolutely no doubt/mention about the other elements ?
An element that in various other occasions has been beyond reproach ?
I see a ill-concealed willing to discredit a brand saying that their totl unit is unbearable.
This is more than unfair.
Kind regards,
bg

 

On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:31:10
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 can be even misleading
The old good example of the Apogee Scintillas is always helpful
Many good amps had problems driving them
This does not mean that they were bad amps per se
Try a Ongaku with the Scintillas ... or is a Krell better than an Ongaku ?
Yes of course ... with the Scintillas no doubt about that.
I read many opinions here and many of them are very useful because they describe the boundary conditions, in the sense of the rest of the chain
If i say ... i listen to the cd player X totl of the brand Y... it is a shity source
The common understanding will be that the brand is not able to made good cd players if even their totl unit is shit.
I understand that in USA you can advert a product saying that is better than another.
But i also suppose that you have to say why. To give some kind of evidence.


Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:53:38
zako
Audiophile

Posts: 935
Location: Mo.
Joined: March 29, 2004
 Nothing is UNFAIR,,,No matter what the product ,,,No matter how you dice it and slice it CRAP is CRAP...

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:55:48
abs1
 Strawman rationalization! Stop digging or you'll bury yourself even deeper.

Most of us here are adults and experienced audiophiles who, at the least, know that system synergy is a very important part when considering audio components.

Please give us that basic consideration.

Personal opinions as expressed on a web Forum are not advertisements. Must you supply evidence when offering up a personal opinion in Italy? If so, it's no wonder that your judicial system and courts are such a mess;-)

Cheers,
Al

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 12:00:32
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
The product bashed has been praised in USA by TAS and Stereophile
And in many web magazine reports from US audio fairs

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 12:03:19
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Every serious review lists also the other components in the chain
If we want talk like at the bar ok ... hardly useful
I just reply to you for courtesy but i can stop anytime
I understand that maybe you prefer the bar like discussion
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 14:27:17
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2956
Joined: February 20, 2011
 Not cool dude.

 

RE: On principle speaking of only one component without mentioning the rest of the chain, posted on July 13, 2014 at 14:54:57
abs1
 Please don't think that you're doing me any favors, Beppe.

This has not been productive. I'm tired of you wasting my time. Go bother someone else.

I'm done with this "discussion".

Al



 

Why not ask the Inamte for some context?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 17:59:03
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16244
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 I agree, some folks do fawn over one piece or another rag on another. Generally, I find that most posters do provide a context for their experience or they will if you ask.

Ok, a few are just stupid, trolls or sockpuppets. But often, people just don't have the time or inclination to provide a full explanation of their experience. If you ask, most will provide the context you seek.

-Rod

 

RE: Why not ask the Inamte for some context?, posted on July 13, 2014 at 22:54:01
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the reply
You are right. I should have asked. Try to understand.
For istance why of all the elements composing the chain only this was mentioned in a rude way i would add.
You feel the poster's disgust.
The fact is that i am sure that the brand is very high quality.
The products are usually very transparent without being cold.
I am sure that the bad sound was caused by some other elements in the chain.
Sorry for the outburst but when i see good products unfairly bashed i get upset.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Why ?, posted on July 14, 2014 at 00:59:37
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 While what you say is true in many cases, a) most dealers don't give us the opportunity to undertake this kind of investigation, b) grumpiness (again), and c) no one worth their salt pays much attention to these kind of remarks.

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 23, 2014 at 18:20:00
michaelhigh
Audiophile

Posts: 839
Location: midwest
Joined: August 18, 2010
 1) Read LOTS of reviews and find consensus
2) Listen if you can
3) Exceed your budget whenever possible
4) Upgrade as your appreciation of true quality increases

That's a winner!

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 23, 2014 at 23:39:49
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thank you very much indeed for the valuable advice.
Just to explain a little more i saw a bad an prejudicial attitude towards a specific TOTL product of a specific company.
For instance if i say ... i listened to the Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF speakers and i could not stay one minute more in the room.
I had to run away ...
I would expect a storm in the forum, i have to add rightly so.
Because this would be clearly unfair and not right.
In the specific case i listened to this equipment and i am sure that if the sound was so bad was not its fault. I am sure.
The same unit has convinced experts from different audio magazines also in USA.
Personally i prefer positive reviews ... better to spot good things that spending time bashing bad ones.
This was clearly an attach to the brand bashing one of their best products.
I do not know the reasons of this wicked bashing.


Kind regards,
bg

 

Life is like that, posted on July 24, 2014 at 12:40:14
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 If you look at social media, I think you will find attitudes are similar.

In person, a harsh critic will tend to be a little muted.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

RE: Why not keep bad personal experiences personal ?, posted on July 24, 2014 at 12:58:14
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 beppe-

inmates must always share the positive, as well as, the negative experiences here.

 

" inmates must always share the positive, as well as, the negative experiences here ", posted on July 25, 2014 at 03:57:31
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and yes i agree with you on principle.
But i think, maybe wrongly, that a product good enough to get a Golden Ear Award from The Absolute Sound deserves at least a second chance.
Let's be honest ... it cannot be that bad, don't you think ?

Kind regards,
bg

 

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