High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet

Thanks for clearing that up, posted on April 18, 2014 at 12:33:39
Brian Walsh Distributor or Rep Posts: 10768 Location: IL Joined: December 6, 1999	Here is the video you linked, which you can embed in your posts by clicking on Share, then Embed and checking the box "use old embed code" and copying the code and pasting into your post. Brian Walsh

Inmate 'tinear' is on YouTube?, posted on April 18, 2014 at 12:34:36
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Who knew? First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

Reviewers, like yourself, were the old prophets; they didn't get us very far. nt, posted on April 18, 2014 at 12:42:50
viridian	nt

Still?..., posted on April 18, 2014 at 12:50:17

musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
Since: January 28, 2004

Jeez, I thought it would have been reborn again since last time this was posted.

Maybe Sunday?

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure

HIGH END AUDIO DOES NOT EXIST!!!

Maybe since Alf's post two weeks ago, posted on April 18, 2014 at 13:24:21
Cpk Audiophile Posts: 1518 Location: PA Joined: May 13, 2005	he's found his hifi savior; tape!

AnoiseLog and DiJitter, posted on April 18, 2014 at 14:13:40

Condorsat
Audiophile

Posts: 1909
Location: NE Ohio
Joined: January 13, 2003

AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitterAnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitterAnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitterAnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitterAnoiseLog and DiJitter AnoiseLog and DiJitter

I keep seeing DiJitter as DJjitter..., posted on April 18, 2014 at 14:39:30
musetap Audiophile Posts: 31879 Location: San Francisco Joined: July 8, 2003 Contributor Since: January 28, 2004	who, of course, only spins CDs - no laptop OR turntable for him or her! Makes KILLER mix tapes though! "Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure

RE: Where's The Controversy? He's Right., posted on April 18, 2014 at 15:35:02
amioutaline?	Pick your poison, I'll take a little noise.

Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 18, 2014 at 16:15:33

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

In the spirit of the linked hogwash...

Live music does not exist. There is subway noise, air conditioning noise, people coughing, rich old ladies rattling their jewelry, bored husbands snoring and sometimes the trumpet players aren't sober, as can be seen by looking at them prior to the first note played. Just saying...

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

You need to put more in the plate. nt, posted on April 18, 2014 at 16:29:01
tinear Audiophile Posts: 65782 Location: Kansas City, KS Joined: April 9, 2006	d

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 18, 2014 at 17:51:41
c1ferrari Audiophile Posts: 640 Location: Southern California Joined: March 16, 2001	Analogue reel-to-reel tape is his reference -- I'm cool with that! Vbr, Sam

Where have I seen this before? , posted on April 18, 2014 at 18:04:17
morinix Manufacturer Posts: 528 Joined: October 19, 2000	http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/67/671775.html

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 18, 2014 at 18:25:04
Audioquest4life Audiophile Posts: 1842 Joined: March 6, 2004	This was also posted in the Vinyl asylum and subsequently deleted after it went down a rabbit hole. Lots of feedback and differing opinions on what high end is. This is another one. Nor sure how one can define what high end is before it is properly defined. I mean we have people who believe Bose is high end, and perhaps, for them, it is.

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 18, 2014 at 18:49:30
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	I like this guy!!!!! Maybe it's the accent.

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 18, 2014 at 18:52:11

hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006

A wasted, but harmless argument. The man listens to lousy reproduction(he says all of it is) and seems to get enjoyment from it or he wouldn't listen to it. No one ever said high end was perfect or even indistinguishable from live sound, just that it(at least some of it) is closer than average good gear. High end is simply the best we have and therefore it has to exist. Hopefully it gets higher with time.

"High End Audio" is just a label and means different things to differnt people ... , posted on April 18, 2014 at 19:41:45

three_sox

... Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Ask inmate, tinear, he thinks he knows everything about high-end audio.

As an aside, folks always rabbit on about how "live music" is best. No caveats but just a straight out blunt statement, "live music is best".

I have listened to a 15/16 piece band in one of my machinery sheds. Concrete floor, 60' x 40' x 15'. I can tell you listening to live music in a steel shed is not very pleasant ~ (caveat, it was not pleasant to my ears, maybe others will like the sound of a band playing in a steel shed) Move the band out into a grass-covered paddock and it sounded wonderful. Same band, same music, different sound altogether.

Was any of it, "high-end"?

d:o)

EDIT; syntax

If perfection is the definition..., posted on April 19, 2014 at 06:52:25
wazoo Audiophile Posts: 4062 Location: Middle GA Joined: December 6, 2006	...of High End, there will never be such a thing. That renders the argument moot and somewhat silly.

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 19, 2014 at 08:01:42
Peter Breuninger Reviewer Posts: 601 Joined: August 28, 2002	Funny you mention this, I like this guy too. His voice is almost soothing. Also, the accent is appealing to me.

Wow, the shed experience was news to you, huh? I bet you had to eat a lot of , posted on April 19, 2014 at 08:26:40
tinear Audiophile Posts: 65782 Location: Kansas City, KS Joined: April 9, 2006	manure to find out it tasted bad, too.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good." , posted on April 19, 2014 at 08:41:41
tinear Audiophile Posts: 65782 Location: Kansas City, KS Joined: April 9, 2006	His point about noise ruining vinyl struck me as accurate, for a moment. Then, I recalled that I've never experienced a "silent" live performance, either. Shuffling, sniffing, coughing--- all as intrusive as snap, crackle, pop if you let it be. Don't let it be (apologies to the Fab Four).

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 19, 2014 at 11:45:56
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	He reminds me of the guy in the beer commercial..The Most Interesting Man In The World.

RE: "The perfect is the enemy of the good." , posted on April 19, 2014 at 12:15:04
House13 Audiophile Posts: 337 Location: SE TN Joined: February 17, 2008	Do you really want to accept any extraneous non-musical sounds to intrude on your enjoyment of the performance? I do not enjoy driving over potholes although they are an unavoidable nuisance on many roads.

Found this on YouTube, posted on April 19, 2014 at 13:48:14

jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003

to drive home the point on how ludicrous this all is!

Audiophile Dreams 1

RE: Found this on YouTube, posted on April 19, 2014 at 14:07:16
Tadlo Audiophile Posts: 1925 Location: midwest Joined: March 8, 2003	They cut off the ending of the Coriolan.

Duelund CAST Caps........, posted on April 19, 2014 at 15:41:13
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	I was a sucker for trying these.... Caps had a slow top end.........

He complains about analog, but..., posted on April 19, 2014 at 17:03:33
MWE Audiophile Posts: 2202 Location: Burlington, NC Joined: June 8, 2000	there's a VPI turntable behind him. Mark in NC Mark in NC "The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

RE: He complains about analog, but..., posted on April 19, 2014 at 17:25:09
House13 Audiophile Posts: 337 Location: SE TN Joined: February 17, 2008	His complaint is about less than accurate high end fidelity to the source. It doesn't mean he gave up on listening to reproduced music.

Not news but practical experience beats theoretical bullshit any day ..., posted on April 19, 2014 at 17:56:57

three_sox

... A piano sounds ok in a steel shed, as does a triangle. I'm sure you knew this already. Other instruments and voices sound terrible. (to my ears)

We have a piano set on travertine and sided by plate glass. It sounds fine, not ideal but fine nonetheless. Most instruments in the same space sound terrible, I'm sure you knew this also.

Why don't you tell me how my main speakers sound in various positions in my room? Surely you already know.

Have you got anything else salient to add or do you just want someone to agree with your manure, as usual?

I agree High End Audio is an illusion, a Maya, and a hallucination, posted on April 19, 2014 at 19:10:06

bullethead

I have to agree with that man (and by the way as a prophet he has a nice beard)

There is no way High End audio exists, I've had small and short experiences where I thought it existed, it happens usually when I install new equipment or am high, however it is Maya, an illusion!

I agree with the prophet, but I will not follow him, instead choosing my own path, and I also allow no followers. Find your own truth, I'm going into the mountains to meditate!

Most 'live' music is amplified anyway. And it sucks. (though small acoustic groups are good). nt , posted on April 19, 2014 at 19:28:15
Elizabeth	.

Wot *were* you thinking, sox? :-)) ..., posted on April 20, 2014 at 02:26:24

andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12551
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000

Live music from a 15/16 piece band in a Colourbond shed? Shirley, the only musick that will sound good in a steel shed is ... steel-drum-based Reggae! :-))

Which, probably, would also sound good in a paddock. :-))

BTW, what's your definition of "live music"?:
* music you are listening to directly, at the venue (which is heard via speakers)?
* or music from instruments which are not amplified?

*My* definition of 'live music' is the latter. :-))

Regards,

Andy

RE: "The perfect is the enemy of the good." , posted on April 20, 2014 at 06:43:05
MWE Audiophile Posts: 2202 Location: Burlington, NC Joined: June 8, 2000	The idea is to tune out the (often unavoidable) non-musical sounds and just enjoy the music. Too many folks get obsessive over "purity". Mark in NC Mark in NC "The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

RE: He complains about analog, but..., posted on April 20, 2014 at 06:47:45
middleground	And that is your best argument?

RE: High End Audio Does Not Exist, we have a new prophet, posted on April 20, 2014 at 10:51:40
mkuller Audiophile Posts: 38130 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003	...reality? It does not exist - it is only an illusion.

RE: If perfection is the definition..., posted on April 20, 2014 at 12:06:36

Cinequadom
Audiophile

Posts: 74
Location: Cuernavaca
Joined: January 25, 2009

Perfection is not the point, is false audio formats.

The most expensive turntable in the world is the Clear Audio Statement: $185,000.00 with the Goldfinger cartridge.

As a machine I think it is very close to perfection but it cannot eliminate the noise on vinyl records that would be reproduced even better than a used commercial turntable of less than a $40.00

This is absurd!

“High End” CD/SACD players or DACs costing tens of thousands of dollars and with the last of technology, could be also close to perfection as machines but cannot restore the inexistent information of the 16 bit digital Compact Disc, four times less than the 24 bit formats and even with a Rubidium Clock, they cannot eliminate or even reduce Jitter originally recorded on the digital master tapes.

This is another absurd!

There is not noise and time base errors in the original analog master tapes that are not perfect either, but currently audio formats are far away of them.

So the terms AnoiseLog Vinyl and DiJitter Audio are precise and correct.

RE: "High End Audio" is just a label and means different things to differnt people ... , posted on April 20, 2014 at 12:18:14
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	It is not necessary to know too much about Hi End Audio to see just the simple facts: Vinyl is a noisy format, and digital audio has jitter. And that's all. So the terms AnoiseLog Vinyl and DiJitter Audio are precise and correct.

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 20, 2014 at 13:06:05

Cinequadom
Audiophile

Posts: 74
Location: Cuernavaca
Joined: January 25, 2009

I never heard scratches, clicks, pops and hiss in a live concert.

Also all we know that recording studios are insulated of external noise and it is not necessary that performers play naked to avoid rubbing of their clothes when they move.

The matter is the current formats are defective, limited and corrupted.

The simple facts are that vinyl is noisy and digital audio has jitter, both flaws not from reality.

There is not noise and time base errors in the original analog master tapes that are not perfect either, but currently audio formats are far away of them.

So the terms AnoiseLog Vinyl and DiJitter Audio are right.

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 20, 2014 at 13:16:10

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

Jitter comes from the process of taking an event that takes place over an extended period of time and mapping it onto a fixed medium that takes up space, and then later taking what was stored in that space and mapping it back into an event that takes place over time. There is nothing special in regard to digital that makes it prone to timing errors. Every storage media has them, but different names are used. Tape has flutter. LPs have wow. Jitter is just a new name.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 20, 2014 at 15:33:36
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	Please tell me which is the term used to indicate the time base errors present in digital audio?

Just a snarky observation, nothing more. nt., posted on April 20, 2014 at 17:43:25
MWE Audiophile Posts: 2202 Location: Burlington, NC Joined: June 8, 2000	nt. Mark in NC "The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

RE: If perfection is the definition..., posted on April 21, 2014 at 04:57:55
kerr Audiophile Posts: 4376 Location: Central Indiana Joined: November 10, 2003	>As a machine I think it is very close to perfection but it cannot eliminate the noise on vinyl records that would be reproduced even better than a used commercial turntable of less than a $40.00< So "Higher" End exists, but "High" end does not? In other words, we can achieve "better" but not "great" (or pick your top-level adjective)? Works for me!

I don't understand your point. In my world, there is no perfect. nt, posted on April 21, 2014 at 07:33:16
tinear Audiophile Posts: 65782 Location: Kansas City, KS Joined: April 9, 2006	d

Like anything else, system dependent ...., posted on April 21, 2014 at 08:31:10

rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
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Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003

I find them to compliment FOSTEX T500's. Removes much of the infamous PING sound and they seem just as extended to my old ears as they ever did with a reduction in artifacts.

They cannot speed things up ... for those with slow tweeters that might need some peakiness to heighten the illusion.

You should know I am not trying to be a jerk - but if you were using them with the ALTEC coax I think they would not be ideal in that situation.

Ah, a logical worm. Perfect. nt, posted on April 21, 2014 at 08:35:20
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	Nt.

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 21, 2014 at 09:38:14
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	The answer is in the Digital Domain Page: Jitter is time-base error. Here is the site: http://www.digido.com/articles-and-demos12/13-bob-katz/15-jitter.html Oh, another question but about noise. Tell me please, why million people use headphones to listen to music?

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 21, 2014 at 14:43:17

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

Flutter on a tape transport is similarly a time base error. The time that a particular piece of tape crosses the head gap varies, e.g. because the capstan is slightly eccentric or because there is scrape flutter (the tape is vibrating slightly longitudinally). LP playback suffers from off center holes and warp wow, which in turn depends on geometry. Turntables suffer from the effects of bearing noise, which adds time base errors that modulate the music as well as rumble which is present even in the silent grooves.

Excessive use of headphones is a symptom of various problems, including a poor domestic situation and excessive multi-tasking. At its limit, the headphone disease is fatal, e.g. when the ambulatory listener steps out in front of a truck that he could not hear coming, thereby meriting at least runner-up status for a Darwin Award.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Most 'live' music is amplified anyway. And it sucks. (though small acoustic groups are good). nt , posted on April 21, 2014 at 15:00:21

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

If I were to become World Dictator, my first decree would be to outlaw the use of amplification at musical events open to the public. Not only would the sound be better, there would be employment for more musicians and there would be fewer "stars". The lip-syncing "babes" who can't sing in tune would be "culled" and would have to find another career more suited to the non-musical "talents" that probably got them their present positions.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Live Music Does Not Exist., posted on April 21, 2014 at 23:33:54

Cinequadom
Audiophile

Posts: 74
Location: Cuernavaca
Joined: January 25, 2009

Hi Tony,

Yes, as I know and as you said Wow is a slow speed variation and Flutter is a higher speed variation also.

Those things are natural. Singers and musicians make wow and something like Flutter (tremolo) in their performances. And those terms does not have time base errors which as I know is a totally different thing and is unnatural.

As I understand in a compact disc there are dark tracks let’s say representing “zeros” and bright tracks representing “ones”. And those are not of the same length. A “zero” can be longer than a “one” and the next “zero” is shorter and the next “one” even shorter than the last “zero”, etcetera.

The reading of these longer and shorter tracks causes time base errors in sound and that is jitter and it is not in Nature.

And jitter I think has other definitions but in the past for wow and flutter was and still is speed variation and is measurable in terms of percentage.

Until now, jitter cannot be measure with accuracy, even nobody knows how could be measured. That is why you are not going to find a digital audio machine with a specification like this: Jitter 0.03%

Well, this is what I understand about jitter. But something worse to me is that the sound of Compact Disc hurts my ears in a moderate volume levels, causing me pain and even inflammation and after the listening I have some internal buzz that cease in an hour or two. With some cables this effect is less aggressive.

I wrote several years ago to Kevin Berg of Elusive Disc about the XRCDs that have less jitter than standard CDs and one of my questions was this: Do you know or have heard about the harm to the ears of CD sound to other people apart of me?

His answer: YES. I have heard the "JITTERING" in some CDs bothers people. I hear this complaint more with MP3s etc. XRCDs K2 Process was created to reduce the "jitter" affect.

Well I know now that many people have stress when hearing CDs and other feel some pain with MP3 with earphones.

Maybe in 20 or 30 years with many people with deafness, doctors discover that the cause is for listening digital sound. Who knows?

I think I will place a post about this in Digital Drive.

About headphones you are absolutely right. Those are not for streets, also people driving cars with their stereos at high sound levels and with closed windows are dangerous to them and others.

Headphones in home I think are for two situations:

1. For people that abstract from the real world trying to have the maximum concentration, avoiding the surrounded noise and other distractions and
2. Just to listen to music at relative high levels with freedom to not disturb the people in the house and the neighbors, or for both reasons.

The point is that music exists in reality even with noise, but most people do not like that.

And to me and many others the vinyl noise is annoying and it cannot be a high quality sound. If quality is the goal at least now Hi End Audio does not have it and for that reason the term is a fallacy and therefore does not exist.

Thanks for your interest in my comments and sorry for my bad English and please receive my best regards.

Alfonso

Perfection is not the point?, posted on April 22, 2014 at 06:25:41

wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006

Your recapitulation (thanks, but I fully grasped what was said) is all about imperfection. Calling that a different name (false audio formats) does not change the gist of the complaint. The formats are false because they are not perfect. Oh my, welcome to reality, where nothing is perfect. Sorry if I seem a stubborn contrarian, but I think sublime music reproduction is achievable via analog and digital. Let's call that 'high end'.

Many things are reified by labels. What makes 'high end audio' off limits to such categorization? It is what it is - an abstract concept. What constitutes 'high end' has changed during my lifetime - it has evolved.

As I said (my turn to recapitulate) before, absolute perfection is not possible. Declaring the abstract construct of 'high end' false as a concrete entity because of imperfection is moot (I think we're already aware of the fact that we are arguing over a label) and silly (harping about imperfection in the real world is pointless). Cheer up and enjoy the marvels which are available today.

High end exists and it's in good health. Vinyl is still with us and digital formats have remarkable capabilities. Listening to music via either medium gets me high - there is a neuro-chemical basis of addiction to music, at least, for many of us. So, there's another 'high end' for you. Complain all you want, but you only deny it for yourself. It still exists for me and will persist in spite of your protests.

Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I've heard high end vinyl rigs and they handled some of the surface noise better than lesser setups. In 'other' respects, they positively blew away lesser setups (like mine). If sampled audio disturbs you so much, you better not look into what happens to sound inside your brain.

RE: Perfection is not the point?, posted on April 22, 2014 at 08:52:22

Cinequadom
Audiophile

Posts: 74
Location: Cuernavaca
Joined: January 25, 2009

Thanks for your comments.

Hi End Audio is a commercial name that tries to influence people to think that in this concept, it is the best possible audio quality over any other and for that reason, the cost is from high to ultra high.

Vinyl with noise and digital audio with limitations and jitter cannot be high quality audio.

So if there is not true high quality in the formats, high end audio is a false concept.

This is another way to see that and I think this is not very difficult to understand.

I wrote before about the original analog master tapes and I received a few days ago an email from Elusive Disc (I am a client of them) with the new things and a very interesting add about new reel to reel tapes.

Here are the links:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?shva=1#inbox/1456c8ed862828c5

http://www.elusivedisc.com/Groove-Note-180g/products/253/

http://www.elusivedisc.com/Jacintha-Heres-To-Ben-A-Vocal-Tribute-To-Ben-Webster-Master-Quality-Reel-To-Reel-Tape/productinfo/GRVRR1001/

Let me tell you that Jacintha’s recording was sold out in less than 24 hours.

I think as many other people with all the imperfections of the reel tapes, that these recordings are far superior to any other analog and digital formats of today.

The dream of most audiophiles is to have a true replica of the original master tapes but at $600.00 each is not affordable and this is because the production of a few copies has to being costly and at this time making hundreds of that format is absolutely impractical. Only few people have open reel recorders with 2 tracks and at 15 ips.

I respect your opinion, but do not share.

Saludos

Crazy...imagine you have an acoustic jazz group..., posted on April 22, 2014 at 11:50:45

Steve Parry
Audiophile

Posts: 2470
Location: No. California
Joined: August 19, 2002

and to hear it it has to be amplified. He is in essence saying it doesn't matter what equipment is used because amplification is altering the source. But if amplification is necessary...let us call it "transformation"...as in our system paradigm, of course it matters how well that transformation is done! You can't say "I don't want to listen" or "what difference does the system make?" if as in my example amplification (transformation, or the system paradigm) is a necessary component of the listening experience. How else am I supposed to listen to John Coltrane these days!?

Would he be happier if we called it "higher fi"?

Steve

if it's an acoustic jazz group it shouldn't need amplification, posted on April 23, 2014 at 16:19:54
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	, should it? The idea that we HAVE to amplify stuff is just an unthinking habit, along with close mono miking. Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

RE: Crazy...imagine you have an acoustic jazz group..., posted on April 27, 2014 at 10:19:23
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	The problem are the current wrong audio formats not amplification.

RE: He complains about analog, but..., posted on April 27, 2014 at 10:22:26
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	Necessary to listen the noise of vinyl.

RE: "The perfect is the enemy of the good." , posted on April 27, 2014 at 10:36:40
Cinequadom Audiophile Posts: 74 Location: Cuernavaca Joined: January 25, 2009	High Fidelity or High End Audio supposes purity. That is the fallacy of those terms.

RE: if it's an acoustic jazz group it shouldn't need amplification, posted on April 27, 2014 at 10:56:39

genungo

Amplification is often required because many performance venues have crappy acoustics or are way too large for small ensembles.

Companies like Audiokinesis, Decware, and others do make "audiophile-grade" music amplifiers and loudspeakers but not many groups or venues use such products.

RE: if it's an acoustic jazz group it shouldn't need amplification, posted on April 27, 2014 at 12:10:30
petepappp Audiophile Posts: 10 Location: N. E. Ohio Joined: January 28, 2013	Ah yes, the old absence of perfection negates all the good theory. The only logical conclusion for this guy, ritual sepuku.

RE: it shouldn't need amplification?, posted on April 27, 2014 at 12:29:35

genungo

I never said (or implied) that "absence of perfection negates all of the good", or any such rubbish. I do believe that, because of of the nature of pro sound equipment, many of us have never heard amplified instruments sound as good as they might sound. Such would still be pretty far from "perfection" in sound transmission, however.

It would be more accurate to say that I believe that, while good and bad elements continue to co-exist within everything, "fullness of potential" is usually worth striving for anyway.

The use of close miking negates hearing them as we would in the audience, , posted on April 27, 2014 at 14:52:44

Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002

close miking alters timbre, did you not know that? Far more damage than amplifier limitations. It also, by definition affects timing, and interplay. The playing together aspects.

No matter what the amplifier's quality, the PA speakers - all speakers, are coloured.

Close miking and amplification so that it is LOUD is a habit. Nothing more.

With the result that few people have a clue what acoustic music sounds like and this makes it very difficult if not impossible for people to judge home audio equipment.

Lost in audio?! :-).

Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

Well then, that's just too bad., posted on April 27, 2014 at 15:56:12
genungo	What other way is there for larger audiences to hear soloists or small acoustic ensembles even halfway clearly? In order for a live performance to generate big money, a big venue is needed. If we MUST mike and/or amplify and we can afford to do it in the best way possible, then...

String trios and quartets do it regularly., posted on April 27, 2014 at 16:07:08
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	As I wrote, LOUD is a habit. Well established and unquestioned by you and most. Listening and enjoying does not require LOUD. Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

Yes they do do it regularly..., posted on April 27, 2014 at 16:28:31
genungo	And so long as the venue acoustics are good and/or the venue is not overly large then things will sound good and work out fine, and no miking or amplification will be needed for the sake of those seated out in the backmost rows. Unfortunately, the stars do not always align just the way we'd like them to.

my point which you persist in ducking is that it is rarely necessary, posted on April 27, 2014 at 16:40:05
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	And, that close mono miking mixes is not the best way to do it. That it's the standard, doesn't make it the best. Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

RE: my point, your point , posted on April 27, 2014 at 17:04:27

genungo

No, I'm not trying to "duck your point". I understand what you are saying but I am of the opinion that miked/amplified acoustic performances are sometimes seen as a "necessity", and more often than you'd care to admit. Even if everyone were to change their living/listening habits to suit your preferences, amplified acoustic performances will continue to be needed.

In the event that such is necessary, why choose shoddy pro gear when we might be able to do the job using the finest components available? That is all I'm saying, and it should stand true for both electric and acoustic performances.

When I'm recording here in Canberra, I always ask if we can turn off the usual voice PA reinforcement systems, posted on April 27, 2014 at 18:24:05
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	As it will interfere with the recording, mikes picking it up when people often don't. No-one complains about the sound, and I'm happy with what I will broadcast. The venues haven't changed, people's expectations have changed, because music without close-miking and amplifications is beyond their ken. Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

RE: Natural volume levels "...beyond their ken.", posted on April 27, 2014 at 18:50:12
genungo	Or possibly, beyond their hearing capabilities as well?

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