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Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?

98.157.193.242
Posted on May 15, 2009 at 20:59:30
Greg P


 
I just moved up from K Spe to J Lx. So far I am not happy. I had never heard J's but had hear E HE's and love the E's. I don't know if it is the character of the J (i doubt it is) to have boomy bass in the 40-60Hz range. I have move the positioning back and forth and it got a bit better at about a 1.5' from the wall. However I can't get rid of it and the boom boom boom from bass guitar and drums just annoys the piss out of me. It doesn't image as well and it just ruins the whole experience on most songs. The usable room is about 12' x 18' with high 12' ceilings.

I don't know what I should do. I could go and try some room treatment, but I may be moving in a couple of months, or I could go back to the K Spe's. Some of the qualities of the K's I miss. There romantacism and earthyness that is character of Vifa/Scanspeak drivers, and the centered thick midrange. What I was looking for with J's (which I thought I would get) is the unusaul impecable timing the E HE's have, with that very organic tone. So far I feel I have not got the goods of the K's or the goods of the higher end E's. Is is because of the bass problem? Possible, the only other thing I could try to blame on them is break in, but they have about 250 -270 hours on them. , looking for any one else's experience and advice

 

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RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 15, 2009 at 23:04:24
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005
Are they sitting on proper stands? Audionote speakers are very good
they should not perform the way you describe. Maybe email Audionote and explain your situation, maybe they could give you some answers......

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 16, 2009 at 00:40:12
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 The J sounds very much like the E's - they use the same woofers and tweeters. The J's have a little less bass and a little less organic.

I moved from the K to the J and getting the bass right takes some work. Several weeks. I would suggest putting them as hard into the corner as they can possibly go - the stands you're using are at the correct height right? They need to be lower than your average standmount.

Hard in corners with significant toe in such that the tweeters are firing about 3 feet in front of your head. Placing them closer to the wall is counterintiuitive to reducing bass problems but that worked in my room.

The K's sealed box makes it easier to position and it's lighter weight bass and fast rolloff has a different character - you may simply like it better - it's certainly easier to get right in a room than the J. Still get the J right IMO and there is no going back. The superior treble and bigger more organic sound is tough to beat.

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 16, 2009 at 01:58:47
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 Correct positioning should sort the problem out - finding the right position could be a bugger however.

If you've got the speakers against the 12' wall, no matter how far you move them away there's obviously still the side walls coming into play.

If could well be that the K Spe is better suited to your present room, but if you may be movign in a couple of months it could be worth holding on to the J's as they may well be able to sing in another room.


Best Regards,
Chris redmond.

 

Also, posted on May 16, 2009 at 04:32:49
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I don't have J pictures available because I'm in China and they block practically everything. I can't even access dagogo from this country.

Anyway position them something like the E's seen in this picture.

One thing to check as well and it may seem mundane but if you are not running them biwired make sure the silver connecting piece on the rear that connects the HF side to the LF side that BOTH are making full contact - this can get loose when transported. Want to make sure your tweeters are actually fully engaging.

My room is 12 X 15 or so so it should be similar to yours. An inch here or there goes from beautiful to boomy. Spend some time - if it doesn't work go back to the K's. They're no slouch!!

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 16, 2009 at 04:36:50
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Hi Greg,

I know nothing about AN speakers but it could be that the room you have is the problem?

You said "The usable room is about 12' x 18' with high 12' ceilings". If that's the actual size of the room ... you do have got a problem IMO - firstly, because 2 of its dimensions are the same and secondly, because of the width relative to the length.

Your first room modes will be (if I've got the maths right):
* 12' width: 47hz ... and this is the same for height.
* 18' length: 31hz ... so the second length mode is 62hz.

You said you "have boomy bass in the 40-60Hz range" ... seems like it's because of your room modes?

So it would seem there's not much you can do about it, save extensive "room treatments" like bass traps but, if you'd like to PM me your email address, I can send you a 10 page paper on optimising your speaker location for bass (which makes sense to me, anyway!). :-))

Regards,

Andy


 

"I may be moving in a couple of months,", posted on May 16, 2009 at 08:08:17
Richard BassNut Greene
 Use headphones until you move.

Uneven bass frequency response is almost always caused by the room dimensions and the locations of the speakers and listeners in the room.

New speakers in the same location as the old speakers will have an almost identical bass frequency response and the same booms with one exception:
--- A small speaker with little output at 40Hz., for one example, won't excite a 40Hz. standing wave (that causes a bass boom at the listening seat) very much ... while a large speaker with full output at 40Hz. will.

That doesn't mean the large speaker is boomy at 40Hz. -- it means the room is boomy at 40Hz. and one speaker has such weak bass at 40Hz. that you don't notice.

A room boom at the right frequency could extend the bass frequency response lower for a small speaker -- similar to an "enclosure boom"
(this sealed enclosure speaker builder's pet name for the operation of speaker enslosure ports)

Placing speakers and ears far awauy from room corners "in the middle-of-the-room" reduces excitation (by speakers) and reception (by listeners) of standing waves, reducing the magnitude of the bass peaks and bass troughs caused by standing waves.

The worst case would be speakers located in/near both front corners amd listeners sitting in the rear corners of the room.

Since the dimensions of your room are all multiples of each other, you will have some stacked (at the same frequency) room modes.

It would be best to avoid sitting 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4 of the way between the front wall and rear wall. The explanation is complicated, but the advice is sound,.
.
.
.

Richard BassNut Greene.....................................................................
The "Cliff Claven" of Audio
and the "Floyd R. Turbo of Bingham Farms Michigan"

 

Maybe the Ongakus and Dac 5 helped a bit NT, posted on May 16, 2009 at 14:46:09
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 NT
"Live free or die"

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 16, 2009 at 17:50:08
pennfieldgreen


 
Hi,

I have the E-Spe's with the hemp drivers in a small room ( 12x15 )in a house that I am renting now and had the same problem with the bass. It took me 2 weeks to dial them in. I ended up with them 42 inches from the back wall and 20 inches from the side walls. I also had Robert at Starsound build me a pair of his magnificient stands, that really tightened up the bass. ( No affiliation to Starsound)

Good luck and let me know if you would like to discuss. Also. Peter Q at Audio Note is a wealth of information and a great guy to boot.

Cheers,

Richard

 

The bass problem is room problem, posted on May 16, 2009 at 19:29:44
Greg P


 
The bass problem which to my ears is originating from the port is causing "vibrating" frequencies that to my ears are somewhere in the 40-60hz ranges. I will keep playing but it is very agravating after paying so much money for upgrades. I have them on the "yet to be released" Star Sound second generation stands(these are replacing the sistrum at a higher price point)


The vibration through walls, floor etc. screws up the timing of the music(to my ears this is what is sounds like) The bass I have heard on E HE's if anything was a tad dry, and there was no "port noise" I feel like even though I have improved the problem, it is still screwing up the timing. There is this sort of delayed unnatural harmonic coming with the sound, through room "vibration" and second harmonic port noise. making the speaker disappear less. I can leave and even like a bit fatter bass in the upper mid bass (80hz - 120hz) but what its doing is robbing the magic from the system. The bass problem isn't just a bass problem it screws up the midrange and everything else. I may be exagerating a bit as it does not sound like a car stereo, but at certain instances that buzz, vibratiion kicks in in a lot of music. This is what none of us are shooting for unless we are 16 installing some kickers in that back of our Firebird. I also tryed stuffing the ports with paper towels which helps a teeny bit.

I was almost positive the problem is the room, but it is a pain in the butt moving around Star Sound
Stands.

 

This is the placement manual for the E which should be the same as the J...but my J manual..., posted on May 16, 2009 at 20:00:09
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 wasn't nearly as complete as this one

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 16, 2009 at 20:15:03
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Richard.

When I first had the J's and was positioning them I got a lot of bass boom - they offer significant bass from a relatively small box and will show up room issues far more than the AN K.

I had them positioned well out into the room as well for a time - but the problem is the "magic" and in room instrument pressure is lost and the AN speakers then start sounding like typical free standing speakers from their competition - albeit excellent ones but still closer to other standmounts (that's not a good thing IMO).

Peter Qvortrup talked awhile back about finding the room/speaker hot spot and a few inches here or there matters a lot. I would take some time when you get the time to work on finding it really hard in corners. toeing in and out and then edging them out a few cm at a time.

My room is roughly the size of yours and hard in corners I have far less room related problems than when they were well out into the room. A few cm goes from boom tight and clean.

It took me several weeks to a month or so to finally get them in corners and to get rid of bass boom while retaining a proper soundstage and more importantly to eliminate directionality. Tonally they sound good everywhere even facing directly at eachother which is quite interesting.

Still my big advice is to not give up on the corner - I almost did too - it was not about bass either - the sound in the midrange and treble improved dramatically.

Peter Q on why to put them in corners.

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 17, 2009 at 09:44:03
pennfieldgreen


 
Hi,

I agree that by bringing them out into the romm does take away the magic and present them as normal speakers. Peter Q has encouraged me much in the same way as you have. I think my biggest hurdle is that I am a 30 year Maggie owner, most recently with the 3.6's. This is a quantum leap in terms of change in design philosophy and presentation and I am still getting used to them as I have only had them for a month now. Did you ever document the final distances from the walls that you were happy with?

BTW: I still have the Maggies if anyone is interested. ( How's that for shameless plugging)

Thanks again for the encouragement. I appreciate your thoughts.

Richard

 

Actual Room size is 12'-6" x 24' - Speakers are on the long side toward the corner, posted on May 17, 2009 at 09:50:19
Greg P


 
NT

 

If you have to do so much to improve it ..., posted on May 17, 2009 at 10:26:44
NGeorge
Audiophile

Posts: 1354
Joined: March 28, 2000
 ... then it's the wrong speaker for you. Time to consider something else.



 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 17, 2009 at 10:57:09
R Browne
Audiophile

Posts: 1710
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 14, 2002
 I had the same problem with the AN/J's when I moved and put them in a small room (10.5' x 12' x 8'). The room modes of that room contributed to the boom I heard in the 45-50 Hz area. Due to the small size of the room and furnishings there were limited options in siting the speakers and listening position. In my previous room, which was much larger, this was less of an issue and the speakers sounded much better.

Introducing a pair of Spendor S3/5 speakers eliminated the boom as the lower frequency output did not excite the room modes and with proper positioning the bass extended lower than the published specs. The Spendors were perfectly suited for the small room with a well balanced presentation but were lacking the dynamics of the larger more efficient AN/J's.

Missing the distinctive qualities of the AN/J's that I liked I decided to try the corner positioning that in recent years has become recommended with Audio Note speakers. I think I ended up with them about .5" from the side walls and 1.5" from the back of the 10.5' wall with the speaker axis crossing 3' in front of the listening position which was an improvement. The boom lowered and the bass extension increased. Corner positioning does require some time and experimenting as an inch or so either way can result in big differences in the sound.

The other informed respondents to your question have offered some insights and possible solutions for your situation. Your room modes are likely the biggest contributer to the problem and the lower end response of the AN/J's is causing you to experience the boom that also masks the midrange detail that the AN/J's are capable of producing. With the AN/K's this would be much less of an issue. Personally, I would first try moving your listening position closer to a bass null point to see if that improves things and then try experimenting with the corner positioning. It may take some time and effort but in the end it will be worth it.

The AN/J's are fine speakers that one could live with for a long time with great satisfaction. I've moved on to a different speaker that is better suited to my room but will always hang on to the AN/J's hopeful that in the future I can use them in a room that is best suited for them.

 

RE: If you have to do so much to improve it ..., posted on May 17, 2009 at 11:12:49
R Browne
Audiophile

Posts: 1710
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 14, 2002
 In that particular room and in the general position he has them with little in the way of alternative siting that could very well be the case. As good as any speaker has the potential of being the room itself can be the dealbreaker. Twelve years ago I tried a pair of Impulse Lali speakers for a month but just couldn't get them to sound right in my room at the time. Unfortunately I didn't have many variables in positioning them as the room was not dedicated solely for music listening. They were fantastic speakers in many ways but in my situation they had a thick booming bass that was disconnected from the rest of the frequency response. Correctly sited in the proper room they had the potential to be lifetime speakers. For me, unfortunately, that was not the case so they went back to the dealer.

 

If the speaker sounds great out of the box ..., posted on May 17, 2009 at 11:20:28
NGeorge
Audiophile

Posts: 1354
Joined: March 28, 2000
 ... regardless of room or positioning considerations, then it's one hell of a speaker to own.

Speaking from experience, the Rega RS3 (what I currenly have) is one. But don't take my word for it, try auditioning it against anything up to $3,500.

And you need at least 20 watts to do it.

 

RE: Actual Room size is 12'-6" x 24' - Speakers are on the long side toward the corner, posted on May 17, 2009 at 11:46:46
R Browne
Audiophile

Posts: 1710
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 14, 2002
 If this is the case, then I'm not surprised you're experiencing the problems you have. Unless each speaker is in the same position relative to the room boundaries you are going to experience an unequal frequency response from each of the speakers. This will mess up the imaging as each speaker will have peaks and dips in the frequency response that is different from the other due to unequal positioning. Its also quite possible that one speaker is positioned in an area that is creating the boom you are experiencing. I experienced something similar to this when I had my AN/J's in a large room along the long wall where one speaker was very close to the center of the long dimension and the other was about four feet from the corner. Moving them to a relative symmetrical position was much better.

If you have a Radio Shack SPL meter measure each speaker separately from your listening position with 20-20K Hz 1/3 octave test tones to see how they differ in their current position. Don't be too concerned about the meter's ultimate accuracy as you are measuring each speaker relative to the other. My guess is that you will see a definite difference in their response and one may be the boomy culprit. If that is the case, repositioning the speakers for the smoothest and more equal frequency response relative to each other will give you much better results if that is feasible in your room. Good luck.

 

One more thing..., posted on May 17, 2009 at 12:01:04
R Browne
Audiophile

Posts: 1710
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 14, 2002
 Don't be too concerned in attaining a relatively flat response when measuring both speakers together after you've done the separate measurements and tried to optimize the speaker positions relative to each other. Due to the speakers' response and room interactions that is nearly impossible in real life. Final positioning should be done by listening, not measurements, as it is you who will determine what sounds best. When listening if you're thinking about the music and forget the sound, you're done.

 

That's good to hear., posted on May 17, 2009 at 12:15:50
R Browne
Audiophile

Posts: 1710
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 14, 2002
 Consider yourself fortunate compared to many who seem to suffer such angst in selecting suitable speakers, etc. My Tonian Labs TL-D1 speakers are similar with respect to room or positioning considerations in my particular experience.

 

RE: Actual Room size is 12'-6" x 24' - Speakers are on the long side toward the corner, posted on May 17, 2009 at 18:54:54
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I'm trying to see a picture of this in my mind. You have a 12.6 short wall, a 24 foot long wall and 12 foot high ceilings. By the sounds of it you're room is a lot better than mine in size for this speaker so there is definitely a way to get around this problem.

Though I'm not sure about having them on the long wall since I've never tried them that far apart. The High Ceilings.

Is there a way to get them on the short wall? Still at the VSAC show in 2008 the AN E was placed very far apart in corners and many felt it was the best sound of the show so being far apart should not be a problem. I'd still put them as close to the corners such that you can't even put your finger between the cabinet and the wall with toe in firing 6 feet in front of your head. This will be severe - then gradually turn them to face you but still in front of your head.

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on May 21, 2009 at 01:31:43
Peter Qvortrup
Manufacturer

Posts: 940
Location: South of England
Joined: December 8, 2000
 Dear Greg,

Can I ask you how close you have placed the speakers to side and rear walls?

Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on October 20, 2014 at 11:00:33
jasonpatrickbrowne



okay, I have tried all possible ways to avoid boominess in my small 10x11 room with the AN J.
I have tried in the corners, not in corners but close to rear walls, 4 feet away from the back wall close to side walls, ECT

I have done all those test using ARTA and a soundcard and a MIC. No matter the position, I had a big peak at 50hz and a big dip at around 200hz. PLEASE NOTE that all my measurments was made from the listening position!

The only way ive acheived to remove the major peaks and dip in the bass is using HUGE 14 inch thick floor to ceiling bass traps place in the corners of the front wall. This is a lot of foam. for each corner, ive used one package of http://www.lowes.ca/sheet-insulation/roxul-r6-comfortboardtrade-insulated-sheathing-board_g1363092.html

Ive went from 12 db peaks and dips to reasonable 5 db paks and dip at the listening position. Im happy with that!

cheers

Ive attached my before and after measurments all at listening position.

the measurments where you see the yellow line with the big 50 hz peak is the one taken without bass traps. please forget about the other two lines.

Finally, my MIC limit is 50hz so all the response under 50hz cannot be measured.

 

RE: Audio Note J's Boomy Bass - What to do?, posted on October 20, 2014 at 11:02:04
jasonpatrickbrowne



the other measurments is left right speaker with bass traps in my room again at the listening position.

as you can see, improvements are impressive and bass traps have been the only way to deal with the boominess of the an j in my room.

The subjective improvements are as impressive as the measurments show.

cheers

 

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