Just over 40 years ago, those words were echoed across the world as the Who rocked stadium after stadium announcing to young and old, that yes in fact, this generation was doing just fine thank you very much. Politics aside (yes baby boomers, you spent a whole heck of a lot of money and now my poor Gen X has to figure out how to deal with no pension ;) I think this is true as much today as it was in 1965. Many bemoan that our children (I guess myself included) have lost a sense of quality, have lost a sense of music and that the active pursuit of listening to music, not as background music, but as something all-encompassing, may be gone forever. No. This is not just erroneous it is completely ignorant to think this way. Folks, the kids are alright.

I’m 30. Not young but not old either. I’m just slipping out of the target demographic for the RIAA, that 16-25 is a top group but they know that if they can score the 25-35 guys, they can likely count on them for life. I grew up listening to cassettes until, at the age of 15 I purchased a portable CD player. Thus began my journey into serious music collecting, not because CD was better than cassette, or that my little pdcd through stock ear buds was somehow better than my boom-box cassette player, but rather because it was a time that I was getting into music, music started to define my life, or at least relate to and even explain a few things about it (as seems to be the trend for most teens). I felt that buying music was a long-term investment. The media didn’t deteriorate and music is good for the mind, and I like investing in my mind. Best of all CDs didn’t get mangled in decks. CDs, thus far…are for life! I’m OC so each of my CDs is in mint condition; to this day I’ve never had a CD with a scratch.

>1000 albums later and I only love music more and more each day. I started out buying what was hot, mostly the tail end of “hair metal” and “glam rock” bands and a good dose of “grunge,” that elusive “alternative” rock that was ushered in predominantly by the likes of Nirvana, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam. It was a great time in my life and I still listen to these bands.

When I entered into university in the mid-90s I had just over 100 CDs. No one was using vinyl, and the web was just beginning. MP3 was still in its early infancy and so CD was it! Sure, the rave scene was blazing hot and vinyl was the source of choice, but unless one was spinning in a club, one was buying CDs, copying CDs, trading CDs, and of course listening to CDs. By my third year, broadband had hit campuses nation-wide. The lossy age had been birthed and was raging. Trading 128 kb/s mp3s, maybe 160 kb/s if one had the room was THE way to get bootlegs. The net was a dream for sourcing out rare and impossible finds. No doubt my collection grew. Mightily so! By the time I left undergrad, I had upwards of 20 gigs of mp3s. In the late 90’s 20 gigs was an enormous collection. Why so much? Many argued that it was wasteful, gluttonous even; there was no way I could listen to all that music. Not only did I listen to it all, but I downloaded more and more and more! Before the ethics and legality of downloading came into play, there were people like me amassing huge collections of mp3s. Yet, something was shaking up the “scene.” After only 1 year of downloading music and using the cheapest stock PC speakers, I and many others realized that 128 kb/s was not good enough. 192 kb/s became the standard and many, me included, began replacing our 128 kb/s files with the higher quality files. Wait…you mean “kids” who were listening on their PC’s (iPod had yet to be introduced and the only real hard drive-based player was the Nomad Jukebox weighing in at about oh…I don’t know…as much as a Volkswagen Beetle? ;) and they were focusing not on volume but on quality? They wanted better files? Why yes, yes indeed. In fact, it was and are these same people who later pushed for 256 rips, then 320 and then finally lossless.

Now, many will read and feel that my comments betray my argument that the kids are alright. That music is safe, and that this hobby will not die out. Because, that is exactly what I meant by “the kids are alright.”

My music collection is vast. Not as substantial as many here, but my collection would not be embarrassed either. As I wrote, when I left undergrad, my lossy collection was enormous but so was my CD collection. Within 4 years my CD collection had gone from just over 100 discs to just over 600. I had spent a great deal of my scholarship money on CDs. What else are KD and Ramen for if not for students to sacrifice their health for something else? Most did this for alcohol, bar cover and tabs; I ate this synthetic stuff so that I could buy more music. Sure I could download the stuff, and heck I likely already had, but I wanted the real thing in my hands, the liner notes, the lossless quality only a CD could provide. At that time, CD’s were typically in the 15-20 range, and I have eclectic tastes, something that many “older folks” may be surprised at. My collection ranged from rock and pop to jazz and a very healthy helping of all things classical (and by that I mean baroque, classical, romantic, modern, symphonies, chamber works, ensembles, duets and solos). The more I downloaded, the more I was exposed to, and the more I wanted to buy. Now, at $15+ taxes (I live in Canada) to about 25 + taxes at the time I would say I was averaging about 20/album. In just 4 years I had spent $10 000 on music. I was lucky to have the means to do this, but I was not alone in my spending and moreover, I was not alone in those that were buying more because they were exposed to more.

During this time, I had been listening through a horrendous sounding Pioneer system. It was bloated, didn’t have adequate power to drive the very inefficient speakers and besides holding 25 CDs, was pretty well useless. It couldn’t even read that many CDs, but it was all that I owned. My roommate was a morning person, I a night owl. To accommodate each other, we opted to either not listen to music while the other person was sleeping, or we agreed to buy some headphones. I had some ear buds that I used with my pcdp, as did he, but because I was such a music nut, I didn’t want to have these tiny, uncomfortable things in my ears for hours at a time. It was then that I started to research headphones and in the early days of the web the options were: www.goodcans.com, www.headphone.com (Headroom) and later www.headwize.org. Good Cans and Headroom proclaimed the Grado SR60’s as the best headphones for portable use and were said to be very good for all around listening. Since I wanted something versatile, a pair of cans to replace my stock earbuds and something to listen through my Pioneer system, I ordered myself a pair. $147 CAD later (in 1997) I was absolutely BLOWN AWAY by the sound. This was my first step into what I would later call a serious addiction, an illness that has overrun my system: Audiophilia 

Music had never sounded better and I wanted to listen to all my music through these headphones and moreover I wanted to buy more music. I was starting grad school and was about to get married so funds were still tight. I no longer could drop the kind of cash I was blowing during my undergrad on music and a serious stereo system was out of the question. Still, I didn’t much mind, the Grados were treating me well and so long as my wife didn’t mind the odd CD purchase here or there, I was happy. Well, my wife turned out to be my addiction’s biggest pusher! Not only was she supportive of this hobby but she okayed the purchase of some upscale gear!

I had longed for a unit that could play CD-R’s full of mp3s because well, I had so many. But I also wanted something that would play my CDs well and that would sound great with my Grados. The more I researched the more I began to lust after better equipment. I convinced my wife that upgrading my current headphones would be ideal, she would inherit my SR60’s and I could listen to the RS-1’s! I noted that the RS-1’s deserved an amp and so, for our first anniversary, she purchased the RA-1 for me and later that year, for our second Christmas, she helped purchase the RS-1’s for me. Both of us still students, she recognized how important music was (and still is) to me. I continued my downloading but I also continued buying music. In the nearly seven years I have been married I have more than doubled my CD collection.

Six months after the purchase of the RS-1’s, I really started to hanker for a serious player. My idea to buy something that would play those mp3’s was slowly waning. Instead I wanted something that would make my lossless music sound spectacular. Still on a grad student’s budget (my wife a starting teacher made less than I did), I began to research great entry level players and was lucky enough to buy the Shanling CD T-100 early. The cost was something we could manage and the difference between this unit, my pcdp and *cringe* winamp playing lossy mp3s through pc speakers, was night and day. I was at the first listen, forever hooked on the idea of superior sound through excellent equipment.

Since that time I have moved into the realm of tube gear and vinyl. I’ll leave the merits of these old techs for another thread, but I must say that vinyl has taken my enthusiasm for this hobby into a whole new realm. My vinyl collection is just over 1000, 20% came from kind donations from a good friend, 40% from garage sales and used shoppes and the other 40% I’ve bought new. Most know that new vinyl ain’t cheap. But it is worth it to those that love it!

I still don’t own speakers, mainly because of my living conditions, but once space permits, I’ll buy a nice set and all that will be left will be the endless tinkering this hobby seems to encourage and of course buying more and more music.

I’m but one example of a “kid” that went from listening to “crap music” to appreciating every style under the sun. A kid who grew up with cassette and then later CD but was and still is fully entrenched in the digital downloads culture. But I am a guy who grew into this hobby and have been happy the whole way. I’ve spent more than many gross in a year on music and my audio gear takes up another year’s worth of salary. I’m apparently a kid that made it out of the cloud of ignorance many think my generation and those younger than I live in.

Do you know what is interesting? I’m not the only one. Of course not, and not by a long shot. In fact, I’m but one among many budding audiophiles, big spenders in the making. Myself and those my age and younger are the next wave of 6+ figure salaried folks willing to drop a serious dime on a rig that will bring out the most from our music. Don’t believe me? Head over to the most popular audio forum on the web – www.head-fi.org. Note the typical age of the member, I’d say >80% of folks there are under 35, maybe even under 30. Nearly every single one of these guys “gets” music and “gets” good gear (which does not necessarily mean pricey gear). Each of these guys wants the good stuff, and will buy it eventually, once they finish school, get a secure job and are able to afford it. Heck, some like me threw logic and reason out the window long ago and simply sacrificed to get the stuff early.

But wait! Isn’t the iPod (and DAPs like it) the top selling audio playback device around?

No doubt it is! In fact, I own 3 iPods myself! I own a Shuffle for the gym, a Nano for around the house and mostly for nodding off before bed, and a 60 gig iPhoto for the car and work/school. My wife owns one as well, a 30 gig unit that has every CD she has in her collection plus some interesting podcasts of kids music.

Hmm, I can see some musing now: “I thought this guy had this crazy audiophile-approved rig, thousands of real media and the enthusiasm and desire to listen high end? Why is he listening to lossy digital hash on an iPod! See, the kids aren’t alright.”

Well of course I have, I have a great system and lots of music, but unless someone manufacturers a means of transporting my collection to wherever I am at a given time and moreover figuring out a way to get my system there with me, I have no other option but to listen with some type of portable device. Certainly a device with sufficient storage to hold multiple albums beats the pants off of crating around stacks of discs! You betcha! So even though I have a great system, I am “forced” to listen my portable setup 85% of the time if not more. If I want to listen to music I have to do it with my iPod and high-end IEMs. Because of school and work its that or go silent.

Some will say silence would be preferable to listening to an iPod but then ignorance is once again dominating judgement. An iPod can play lossless files which are EXACTLY like the CD they were ripped from and with the right amp and some headphones (or a nice office rig) one can have excellent sound and plenty of music to get one through the day. Why deal with silence when one can enjoy great sounding music on the go?

“Ah…” some will declare! “You and others are merely using music then as background music, I want no part of that.”

Heh, think again. Though undeniably many people listen to music in this way, don’t blame the kids, blame the adults because when kids listen to music they LISTEN to music. Kids typically know not just the tune but the lyrics as well. They sit with friends dissecting tracks, analyzing them, remixing them, playing them on real instruments etc. Kids know their music. They may be listening through an iPod, it may be 128 kb/s, but they are listening so intensively their parents have to nearly smash down the door to their bedrooms to get their attention. Kids get music, something must happen between the typical “kid” age and “adult” age to transmorph the listening experience into something that would make any of us here sigh a sigh of sadness.

What’s more, the irony of the “audiophile scene” is that where vinyl typically reigns supreme, it is from the depths of the youth and their “garbage and compressed music” that the rejuvenation of vinyl or rather the sustaining of the medium, is kept healthy. Reports of vinyl outselling audiophile-approved digital formats such as SACD and DVD-A have been documented for the last handful of years. What’s more, whereas some may assume it is the older audiophiles buying this vinyl, in fact, they don’t even make a blip in the sales. Most vinyl sales are hiphop, electronica and indie rock, targeted towards DJ’s and young music connoisseurs. In fact, indie rock groups are releasing their albums on vinyl more and more with the INCLUSION of a digital download so that one does not have to be without when they are listening with their iPods. Say that again? Many indie labels are including special one time use codes for downloading the album purchased on vinyl in a high quality digital format. Most will release it in 192 or better mp3 format but some are starting to release in lossless FLAC. This means that those young folks hooked on vinyl get to listen to what I feel is the superior format, at home, yet when on the go, they can also enjoy the same album, legally, on their DAP of choice. Why can’t “audiophile” labels do the same? I just recently paid $60 for a new heavy virgin vinyl pressing of a famous jazz musician. Did I get the option of downloading the album? Nope! Luckily I had this on CD, a gift I received for Christmas the previous year. Yet, for the typically less then $20 CAD I pay for indie vinyl releases I’m also getting digital copies. Incredible value! This is cutting edge marketing! This is value for the dollar and this keeps folks on the side of the law (in the US anyway). And why shouldn’t this happen? I mean, it is legal to make a back up of one’s music and vinyl is notoriously difficult to back up, so yeah for the convenience of a few clicks and a drop and drop onto on iPod!

Now, what if all vinyl releases came with this option? Imagine that…one can have their cake and eat it too! Perhaps audiophile labels and the labels releasing jazz and classical will as a rule, offer the option of downloading a digital copy along with the sale of the vinyl LP. One can at least dream can’t they? Music is demanding to be available 24/7/365. I want access to my collection when I want and that means at any given moment. I’m not so delusional as to think that my vinyl collection will magically be recorded to some digital format (and frankly I have neither the time nor patience to undertake this grand task) but had I had the option of clicking a few links and downloading a perfect copy of my albums, when then certainly I would and then fortunately I would have the luxury of having my music with me at all times. DAPs are always increasing in capacity and it won’t be long until 1 TB units are being sold and then 10 TB units and then 100 TB units. Eventually one will be able to walk around with every song and TV episode, picture and movie one has in their possession. I can’t wait! But behind all this convenience is still my longing for a slow quiet night, a fine merlot or cab sauvignon, sitting by the fire listening to music through my meticulously assembled rig. I don’t pretend to think that I will get this experience through some headphones and an iPod but neither to I expect my wonderful home listening sessions to be the same as my “on the go” ones with all the convenience immense storage, digital playback and high quality In Ear Monitor phones and a spectacular portable amp can give. These are distinct but one is not necessarily greater than the other. They both prove proficient at giving me what I want at that moment…a gateway to my music. In the end it should always be about the music. Right?

Well, if it is about the music, then the kids are alright. Head-fi, dominated by young folks, is the most popular audio board in the English speaking world, and perhaps still the entire world. If it is second, then it is second only to another headphone board, this time out of East Asia and once again dominated mainly by folks under 30. These folks are all about the music and they are all about the music through awesome gear. They may not be able to afford it all now, but they know what they want. They are working towards it. They start with iPods and IEMS, then they move to full sized headphones and amps, then on to full sized amps and speakers and then the circle is complete, fresh blood injected into the apparently forever dying hobby of high-end audio.

These kids are buying records by their favourite bands, deemed utter putrid crap by quite a few around these parts, yet these bands are the ones releasing on vinyl, exposing kids to the merits of this aged format. At the same time, they don’t battle the market head-on, rather they massage the market in their favour, releasing the album on CD, LP and then on MP3 and ALAC or FLAC too. Heck, with the purchase of that LP one often gets the digital rip free of charge!

So why aren’t the kids alright? Is it because many don’t understand the DAP era? Is it because many have lost touch with modern music? If so, then ignorance and misunderstandings aren’t excuses for a poor argument. An open mind to what is happening would be a better strategy.

Of course there are plenty that not only embrace this mentality but also embrace the change the digital era has brought forth. Many an aged audiophile has moved to a system comprised of a server streaming to a high end DAC wired to a preamp and then to the rest of the typical setup. Digital <> garbage and lossless files <> garbage digital.

The majority of folks will fall into the same traps as our parents did (and I use the term our parents to denote my gen and those younger than I). For you see, it was my parents and those a bit older and a bit younger that sold off their stereo systems for the convenience of new formats. They are the ones that sold their LP’s and are enabling younger folks like myself to pick through a goldmine of gems. My father is a prime example, a man who had a wonderful setup in college, sold it off shortly after my younger brother was born in favour of cassette and an all-in-one unit. Components and vinyl were out to the side walk. How many others have a similar tale? Yet it is the kids of my generation and those younger than I that are finding solace listening to these wonky ancient black discs. We are listening and buying the discs of our fathers and our fathers’ fathers. The key is to ensure we continue to do so and that we encourage our children to follow in our footsteps.

How can this happen? One way would be for this hobby to open its arms wide WIDE WIDE for all that have even the most minor interest in listening to music. This is usually the standard I’m exposed to and there is no doubt that my entire journey has been cradled through the arms of older friends, friends my father’s age and older who have taught me all that I know of the hobby. However this means that the insults regarding music must remain behind closed doors, for it seems that each generation irritates the previous ones in the choice of music predominantly listened to. From the early 1900’s Dixieland bigband and jazz to bubblegum pop, rockabilly, rock and blues to stadium rock, punk, pop, grunge alternative, electronic, hiphop, rap, emo etc. Everything irritated someone at some point. The key is to encourage music appreciation, appreciation of quality recordings through quality gear but also the appreciation of the merits of each genre because each genre does offer something to someone, if not everyone.

A second way would be for B&M stores to be more accommodating and accepting of younger folks. I’ve been highly insulted by many a clerk mainly because of my age and younger appearance with little regard to my enthusiasm, knowledge or wallet size. Too bad for them when I’m willing to drop serious cash on an item. Too bad for them indeed and too bad for this hobby. No wonder we are bombarded with announcements of stores closing left right and center. At the same time, there are numerous B&M stores who are the exact opposite and bend over backwards to expose my demographics to high end audio. These folks should be promoted and moreover, we should be informing people about the merits from buying from such outlets, because of their knowledge, their service etc. One must remember that we are raising children in the age of the internet with online sites dominating sales and that North America culture is all about the bottom price. Value in service is rarely appreciated, this is something that must be indoctrinated among the youth. Paying a bit extra to those that help a person out is a value to be protected. The lowest price is usually a short term gain.

This post is getting long and pretty verbose. I don’t want to come off too preachy but I’ve been reading so many posts here and at other sites about how the youth of today are lost because of the overly compressed music they listen to, the crap styles they listen to, the crap systems they listen to etc etc etc. This may be true for some, but it sure is not for many and it is not unique among the young. Heck, most adults listen to musak. Where is the argument for that one?

Kids listen to music more than any other demographic. How can we keep these people listening to music at the same intensity if not greater throughout their lives, like most of us do day in and day out? The kids are alright. It’s the adults that are completely lost. Let’s then strive to foster this love of music among the children. Perhaps this love will grow into a love of exception audio playback and keep this “failing” hobby alive. It’s been dying forever, perhaps we can keep it that way. 

 If your wife.... - pburant 09:42:15 05/09/07 (6)
 Re: If your wife.... - Zanth 12:00:42 05/09/07 (5)
 2 kids. Cool. I have newfound respect... - MarkPR2 14:57:01 05/09/07 (4)

...

Show full thread outline!

 If your wife.... - pburant 09:42:15 05/09/07 (6)
 Re: If your wife.... - Zanth 12:00:42 05/09/07 (5)
 2 kids. Cool. I have newfound respect... - MarkPR2 14:57:01 05/09/07 (4)
 "the world is being overrun by 3rd world morons. " - musetap 15:39:24 05/09/07 (3)
 response inside... - MarkPR2 17:34:21 05/09/07 (2)
 That really narrows it down while clearing things up. VERY clear indeed!...N/T - musetap 10:27:54 05/11/07 (0)
 You're just one click away from bliss. - bjh 19:08:33 05/09/07 (0)
 some seem to be interpreting... - BJordan 18:41:43 05/08/07 (2)
 Re: some seem to be interpreting... - Zanth 23:40:22 05/08/07 (1)
 thanks for the clarification...nt. - BJordan 09:57:09 05/09/07 (0)
 You are an exceptional man. - SalD 16:39:09 05/08/07 (1)
 Re: You are an exceptional man. - Zanth 23:28:41 05/08/07 (0)
 Couldn't read your whole treatise but can't stop crying about your having to deal with no pension. nt - MarkPR2 14:58:05 05/08/07 (1)
 Re: Couldn't read your whole treatise but can't stop crying about your having to deal with no pension. nt - Zanth 23:14:10 05/08/07 (0)
 now THAT ladies and gentlemen - Green Lantern 14:34:12 05/08/07 (1)
 With BOTH hands I'd guess? ~t - three_sox 19:05:08 05/08/07 (0)
 Re: The Kids Are Alright! - bjh 11:24:02 05/08/07 (0)
 Re: The Kids Are Alright! - middleground 10:16:23 05/08/07 (1)
 Re: The Kids Are Alright! - Todd Krieger 13:14:28 05/08/07 (0)
 Re: The Kids Are Alright! - Don T 10:09:31 05/08/07 (1)
 Re: The Kids Are Alright! - Zanth 10:26:57 05/08/07 (0)
 Re: I think we have a winner... - NewGuy 06:51:52 05/08/07 (0)
 This Must Be a Candidate For.... - Todd Krieger 01:59:40 05/08/07 (10)
 Re: This Must Be a Candidate For.... - Zanth 08:28:16 05/08/07 (8)
 The music industry is in fine shape. Audiophiledom? - kerr 09:29:45 05/08/07 (6)
 "The Music Industry is in Fine Shape." Could Not Disagree More...... - Todd Krieger 22:01:33 05/08/07 (5)
 You're referring to modern pop? - kerr 04:31:38 05/09/07 (4)
 ain't it the truth - tunenut 15:54:21 05/09/07 (1)
 Noise - kerr 05:25:58 05/10/07 (0)
 The Problem Isn't Not Expanding Horizons..... - Todd Krieger 14:28:55 05/09/07 (1)
 Yeah - I didn't intend to sound so patronizing - kerr 05:42:49 05/10/07 (0)
 So shines a good deed in a weary world - Sondek 08:38:47 05/08/07 (0)
 another vote for Sufjen Stevens - dave c 03:40:34 05/08/07 (0)
 music will be saved by people who love music - dave c 23:05:34 05/07/07 (4)
 Re: music will be saved by people who love music - Cosmic Closet 17:08:31 05/08/07 (3)
 \\\Because the blitheringly dumb kids I come across in all walks of life these days definitely aren't///..... - three_sox 19:38:55 05/08/07 (2)
 Re: \\\Because the blitheringly dumb kids I come across in all walks of life these days definitely aren't///..... - Cosmic Closet 22:16:07 05/08/07 (1)
 Re: \\\Because the blitheringly dumb kids I come across in all walks of life these days definitely aren't///..... - three_sox 00:49:11 05/09/07 (0)

Just some short comments.....

Much of what you've stated I've been preaching here.... At least there's hope since you happen to be a lot younger than I am..... A pleasant surprise that made my day. Your post I'll go back to whenever I go into "audio depression".....

Someone once asked me why I post here. My answer is twofold- One is the more people learn about audio, such knowledge can be priceless. (I've learned more from here than any place else.) And two is there is a lot of good music out there amongst the muck. You just have to find it....

Great audio is born from great music. We have lots of great examples in both domains. We just need to build upon them. And cite the standouts in both domains.

And I love citing the obscure that I happen to think is exceptional.... Especially if it's also recent.....

The problem is most digital playback is crap. Just like with the music, you have to be diligent to find the good stuff. And contrary to popular belief, what's marketed today isn't better than what's been marketed ten or even 15 years ago. (I just got a Magnavox CD changer, and I think it's fabulous.)

And speaking of the Who, in case you haven't heard it, "Endless Wire", released last year, is a FABULOUS release. Both music and sound. Those old kids are alright.

Some other good artists in recent time are Nickel Creek, the Bad Plus, Charles Dutoit, Sufjan Stevens, Ana Torroja, and Gary Burton's Next Generation Band.

And for audio..... There is a designer in Phoenix named Don Allen. Remember that name. If you want his contact, email me.

For a guy who's 30, I say your post is one of the biggest signs of hope I've seen in quite some time.

• My Favorite Artist Since 1990.....

The great thing is that at the same time, while the younger folks are receiving wonderful music recommendations, they in turn can do the same for those that may not be current. Todd you list some excellent bands and folks like you and Elrod Tom over at Head-fi are prime examples of people who just want to listen to good stuff, no matter what it is or when it was made, so long as it is good, they'll take it.

Another great artist is Steve Burns of...if one can believe it...Blue's Clues fame. He left the show to pursue his music career and his first album, which was very well received by the indie press, was produced by members of the Flaming Lips. There are plenty of sleeper albums and sleeper bands out there to be sure.

The net has been the best thing for younger folks because they are able to get exposed to music that is not pushed by the RIAA via ClearChannel. Places like MySpace are superb for finding new and up and coming bands. Sure 90% may suck, but the 10% that don't are wonderful! I suppose 90% of most genres suck pretty hard. Many people want to be musicians, few have the prowess to do it well.

Sites like Audio Asylum and Audiogon are awesome too. Like you, I've learned more about this hobby, the tech, music etc, than anywhere else. I come here daily, I read through a number of the boards and I'm an avid poster on Head-fi. Interacting with people who have far more knowledge and experience is a golden resource not to be overlooked. What is great too is the mix of people, those that have 30 years in the hobby and who have had the means to have a 6 figure+ system but have over time narrowed it to a just over 5 figure or below. Yet they achieve incredible sound. It means that even on smallish budgets one has hope! At the same time it is awesome to read about guys who have rigs costing more luxury homes in some areas of the world.

Many claim that this generation is bombarded with media and is therefore brainwashed. This may be true to a large extent but it happens in everything. Many claim the likes of Stereophile and TAS do nothing but harm the hobby. Certainly mainy bemoan their recommendations and fear that it is all advertiser driven. If true, that means the young and old alike have to worry about sifting through the muck here too. Reading posts gives a broader perspective and certainly in an ideal world a more balanced impression of the gear available.

Like anything serious, one has to work at it. This hobby apparently has more manufacturers now than at any other point in history. If true, this says something about how the hobby is growing or at least changing. Maybe the big big players have moved on but the cottage industry is healthy and offering some great value. This combined with all the new music available means there is a good future for the hobby. It might not be like it was in the golden age of high fidelity but hopefully it won't embarrass it either.

I can't honestly say that the audiophiles I know get more out of their music than many MP3-wielding youngsters. And as a musician myself, I can tell you that most pro and semi-pro musicians have systems that would make you cringe. Yet they hear as deeply or more so into the music than the average audiophile. And I run across few individuals that are as music-savvy as one friend of mine who uses a Sony rack system. He has no interest in pursuing "sonic nirvana" and he doesn't dig the music any more when in front of a $50K system than he does in front of his $800 one, even though he admits the "sound" is clearer. Go figure.

There is more good music available today than ever. Perhaps it's simply because there's more *music* available. We still have the 60's rock and jazz I grew up on and now we can even look back on the grunge and punk era's, the jazz fusion era, and folks like Morton Feldman who are no longer with us. I've recently discovered a whole new world of music and I've been a software collector since 1971. If I lived to be 1 million years old, I will never hope to be able to hear everything worth hearing.

I wish I had some answers for the state of audio. It seems like appliances for most people and, indeed, it's a means to an end... or should be. No matter how many people come here or how many you deal with on the boards, it's an extremely small niche group of music lovers. But I'm happy to hear that there are younger folks getting in tune with what a well thought out audio system can do for them.

I'd like to add a different perspective.

As an older audiophile I find vinyl much more convenient than CDs and CDs much more convenient than downloading songs. Over the years I had developed a ritual around listening to vinyl. Sure I can and do listen to CDs during dedicated listening sessions but when doing so I'm less able to experiment with different bands and different recordings. I think the vinyl experience is the unique and for me the ultimate in home audio listening experience and well worthy of preservation. Unfortunately it's not completely possible because it really is music that drives my interest in this hobby and it's impossible to ignore so many great new releases that aren't available on vinyl.

Yea sure I have to keep CDs and LPs organized in a fashion so I can find them when needed. And at one time I found it to be a somewhat enjoyable task, maybe still do somewhat, but it's a PITA.

Recording, downloading and organizing music on the computer? And managing all that stuff onto a variety of disks and portables. I've always thought organizing records/CDs to be a geeky kind of task especially when one could be making love to the wife or going out instead. Sitting on a PC and fiddling with with music files? Headphone listening? To me I find it sad the younger generation find this so engaging. Never really understood why just about everyone walking down the street is talking on the cell phone or wearing a headphones. But then it makes some sense when I consider these are probably the same people who are into organizing music files on the computer when the get home.

When I was in my middle teens I supplemented my music collection by recording cassettes from FM/AM broadcasts. I could rarely afford LPs but bought them when ever possible. This "recording" period was over by the time I was 16.

I agree that seeds are being planted in the minds of many of these youths. I feel fortunate that I got to miss the download/mp3 era when I was young. The organization and book keeping involved with nothing, I mean music files, can give me a headache.

Agreed the Kids are Alright - yet I feel very fortunate that I didn't have to fiddle with the mess they have to deal with.

Give me rhythm or give me death!

As for listening to headphones, sure some find it repulsive but many don't have any other options. One situation, like the one I am in, I have a very small house with a young family. I get to listen mainly after midnight, this would not work for them. Headphones provides me with a means to listen, not to mention it sounds great to me. No doubt I would love speakers and I know what I want, but I just can't at them yet. But in time.

Listening to vinyl is sublime to me and the 20 minute max, the tactile experience, the rituals, the cleaning all of it keeps me ever the more interested ironically enough. Some hate this, others love it. It also seems to necessitate that one sit down and really listen rather than keep the music in the background. It seems to promote active listening more than any other format has for me.

But anything that promotes folks listening to music and more of it and different types is a good thing in my books. Keep them interested and maybe they will think to purchase something decent to play their music on. If not now, then in the future.

After decades of being one you'll sit back and wonder about the heavy presence of the anti-hobby morons and the lunatic fringe, and yes, the odd post from some budding green behind the ears audiophile whose produces a "the kids are all right" manifesto, all the while thanking your lucky stars that you mind is being nourished by Sibelius, Beethoven, Dylan, Kristoffersen, et al, and not being poisoned by Cable "News", "Reality" TV, or whatever gods awful monstrosities they manage to invent between now and them.

OH, you'll also become more selective and will have abandoned a very large part of the crap you now listen to; you'll still be listening to the good stuff of course.

Welcome, step right in, but remember you can check out any time you like but you can never leave... which explains the continuing presence of the anti-hobby morons and lunatic fringe, a small price to pay for fisrt class accommodation when you think about it.

No Guru, No Method, No Teacher

The problem isn't Gen X, and nobody has ever made such predisposition.

"Live life as if you'll die tomorrow...
Learn life as if you'll live forever..." -Gandhi

 

I have always liked the line that goes: Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. And as nanny-like as that sounds, I think it is very valid.

Because the poster talks about how "the kids" are oh so observant and are buying into the whole good music/good gear philosophy.

And yet what I see continually in the streets is teens shooting their ears to hell by having a cranked Ipod up enough that 3 seats away on a loud Metro, I can still hear it. And I don't mean a few. I mean a lot, every day. The notion of real appreciation of quality, both in sound and pictures, is being slaughtered on a daily basis at the altar of portability.

What happened to the idea that you can WAIT 'til you get home or to a friend's and listen? And actually have somewhat fresh ears (assuming they have survived the city noise) with which to listen? And then perhaps, just perhaps, enjoy it more?

To me, at least, the whole estethic about 'serious enjoyment' of music has always been linked as much to place and time as to the music itself. And it is something that one cannot convey in words; someone needs to try it themselves to understand.

I hate, hate to have to use the junk food metaphor, but it's the one that fits well. There was a standard of meals in the home. Heck, there was a standard of meals away from home. And then came fast food. And home cooking, or as importantly, the UNDERSTANDING of why homecooking was important, have become niche concepts.

And if the Bright Young Things our original poster seems to have met are indeed interested in upholding some of the things we discuss, that's all for the better, and I hope it is so.
Because the blitheringly dumb kids I come across in all walks of life these days definitely aren't.

CC.

I don’t doubt your observations for one moment but as far as I know there are more super-successful under thirties than there ever has been.

I’m sure there are kids who blast ipods in their ears way too loud but there has been SOME kids listening to music way too loud for decades.

I see nothing wrong with ipods and the argument that kids should wait till they get home to listen to music is ludicrous. Maybe you think all of us middle-aged old farts should never turn the radio on in the car and wait till we get home to our lounge rooms to listen to music?

I think there are more extremes in society today but most young people I see are decent & optimistic members of society and certainly better company than the folks who as they get older fall into the “doom & gloom brigade”

Lastly, when I was a teenager I didn’t know a single teenager with a high-end rig; not one!

Of course, YMMV.

Smile

Sox .

It's like, I now regret bashing Kurt Elling. In the scope of what's out there now, he's not so awful.

Stupidity is the oldest profession.

"I don’t doubt your observations for one moment but as far as I know there are more super-successful under thirties than there ever has been."

There is a strange elasticity in your reasoning when you include adults in what's being discussed. I didn't realize that someone age, say, 28 is now a kid. But ok, let's bring them in too.

"I see nothing wrong with ipods and the argument that kids should wait till they get home to listen to music is ludicrous."

Ludicrous....well if you are of the "all-or-nothing" school of thought, I suppose that would be the word. Here is another word:

Balance.

As in: is there no middle ground between not listening at all and having two earbuds jammed in your ears from the breakfast table on, and throughout much of the day?
Personally, I think there is, if for no other reason than by the time they become the young achievers you reference, they will be, if not deaf as posts, most likely without a goodly amount of high-frequency hearing ability.

"Maybe you think all of us middle-aged old farts should never turn the radio on in the car and wait till we get home to our lounge rooms to listen to music?"
I think you know how that statement sounds without me adding anything to it.

"...and certainly better company than the folks who as they get older fall into the “doom & gloom brigade”
Doom and gloom, unfortunately, isn't always just imaginary. Granted, some folks do like to live in it. I presume you are trying to suggest that I do.

CC.

Too often I read how the kids are only interested in their crap mp3s and their crap iPods and their crap ibuds. Though this is true quite often, this is also true for many adults who have pushed serious listening to the realm of background filtering out chit chat, noise etc. However, if kids, who seem to engross themselves in music are willing to branch out and discover new genres so that they are no longer under the thumb of the RIAA and the top 40 hash, then there is also hope that in learning about new genres they might appreciate gear that can fully reproduce a wonderful experience. I noted that an iPod with some excellent headphones is quite a step up from the stock ear phones and that if one is so inclined to go even this one small step, they may well be interested in building a full stereo at some point. Not once did I claim that to enjoy music or this hobby one had spend enormous amounts of money.

What you have ignorantly or purposely put forward is the Motive Fallacy something neither I will fall victim to nor with any astute reader.

If I was not clear enough I meant to indicate this:

1) kids love music, engross themselves in it

2) the iPod and daps like it have provided a means to store vast amounts of music and it seems with the internet and sites like MySpace, kids are discovering quite a few new bands

3) with each new discovery, particularly indie artists, these consumers fall out of the range of attack of the RIAA and their top 40 garbage

4) these same kids tend to talk a lot about the music they love, amongst each other and now with online forums such as this one and sites like Head-fi, kids are being exposed to genres they might never have had the opportunity to explore, they are getting input from folks their own age as well as older folks

5) quite a few people immediate upgrade the stock ear buds with a full sized pair of headphones. Though sometimes for aesthetics and sometimes for thumping bass, more often it is for an overall increase in fidelity.

6) if kids are willing to go this step, then there is a good chance that with the right information, usually circulated around the forums that are active in discussing music, these kids will migrate towards higher fidelity formats like CDs or Vinyl, or if lossless becomes the standard in downloads, then their only need would be a good dac, an integrated amp and some speakers

7) given the enthusiasm at the most popular audio sites on the web, which are dominated by folks under 30, my above reasoning is not based on hypotheticals but case after case after case as elaborated by the individuals themselves who have purchased music and the gear to listen to it. This translates to an injection of "fresh blood" into this hobby and those that continually cry that the kids don't know what they are doing and that this hobby is on its last legs are in fact mistaken. We may be out of the golden age, but it is not dead yet. In fact, if what I continually read here, at audiogon, at other forums and in print, that in fact there are more manufacturers now, and more products available than at any other point in history, the arguments that bemoan this hobby's death are further contradicted.

I mostly lurk here, but I do so regularly and I would easily say a few times a week I read some post by an older member who flatout insults kids, their musical tastes, their listening habits and their listenings rituals. It gets depressing and I wanted to offer an alternate point of view based on information that is easily verified by a few clicks in a web browser.

It was late, I didn't edit my post at all. I guess I should have because spending big money is not what I think this hobby is about, but to those that have spent a good deal of money and often believe kids are merely "stealing" music and listening to the horrendous 128 kb/s mp3s are living in a bubble. Though this surely does occur, there is a healthy number for folks that want more for their musical enjoyment and that translates into higher fidelity.

You say \\\Stupidity is the oldest profession./// Yes, I agree. Not much different, stupidity wise, than when you & I were kids. I got the impression from your initial post you were implying kids being stupid is only a recent thing?

You say \\\There is a strange elasticity in your reasoning when you include adults in what's being discussed. I didn't realize that someone age, say, 28 is now a kid. But ok, let's bring them in too./// I think my reasoning is correct and logical. It is my understanding that the majority of people who fall into the “super-successful under thirty” crowd don’t all of a sudden become successful at age 28, 29. USUALLY, but not always, they are successful from their late teens onwards and almost always in their early twenties. The perspective of people in their 40’s 50’s 60’s & 70’s nearly always refer to people aged 17,18,19,20,21,22 etc as kids. I’m not sure any successful person aged 29 was thought of as blitheringly stupid in their teens & early twenties? Of course, YMMV.

You ask \\\Balance. - As in: is there no middle ground between not listening at all and having two earbuds jammed in your ears from the breakfast table on, and throughout much of the day?/// Of course there is balance. Are you seriously suggesting the majority of young people fit your description or just the blitheringly stupid young people?

You say \\\Personally, I think there is, if for no other reason than by the time they become the young achievers you reference, they will be, if not deaf as posts, most likely without a goodly amount of high-frequency hearing ability/// I think your comments are predicated on a wrong assumption. I don’t believe the high achievers I mentioned OR the majority of young people fit your description in the first place.

You say \\\I think you know how that statement sounds without me adding anything to it./// It wasn’t a statement it was/is a sincere question. A question you didn’t answer. Reading these forums there are plenty of middle-aged inmates who listen to music in the morning before work, listen to music on the way to work (some on ipods), listen to music at work, listen to music on the way home from work, listen to music at home & listen to music in bed. Do you classify these middle-age inmates in the same manner you classify the blitheringly stupid kids you come across? Or does the balance you speak of only apply to kids?

You say \\\Doom and gloom, unfortunately, isn't always just imaginary. Granted, some folks do like to live in it. I presume you are trying to suggest that I do./// Agreed, doom & gloom isn’t always imagined, but mostly it is. After such limited correspondence on a very narrow subject matter I don’t presume anything about you at all.

It seems the kids I encounter are of an entirely different calibre than the blitheringly stupid ones who you seem to encounter. For that, I’m truly thankful.

I have every confidence in the younger generation as well as the future of high-end audio. Of course, YMMV.

Smile

Sox

But I just got a load of new jazz, some new Xenakis discs, the latest Hafler Trio, some Nurse With Wound from the last few years and a bunch more modern classical (Tod Dockstader's electronic music is amazing!) and a few other things. None of these guys are rolling in dough. Suffice it to say that with all the new music I purchase monthly, I not even scratching the surface of the excellent stuff out there. You might need to expand your horizons a bit but it's there. Shoot me an email with some idea of where you branch out from pop and I'll be happy to send you a few experiments.

Sheesh, what's the last rock CD I bought? Um... Lee Michaels Live (from 1972) and... oh, yeah, the latest Dylan. Before that, I'd have to wrack my brain. Sorry to say that NOTHING would make Springsteen or his music attractive to me. :) Honest, hardworking rocker, to be sure, but it just doesn't move me.

Sorry - couldn't resist.

-Pete

but in seriousness, I use headphones (besides me actually liking them) mainly because we live in a really small place until I graduate and we have an 8 mnth old and a 3 year old and the baby is a notoriously light sleeper.

The problem is not being aware of the existence of potential horizons..... For every one I am aware of, there may be hundreds that I'm not..... I could have spent days, weeks, months on the web, and not find what you just listed. (And if I did see what you listed, the names alone are amongst thousands. I wouldn't have a clue which are the gems. I may have already overlooked a lot. Sampling music takes time.)

To give you an idea, let's say I didn't have the roommate I had, and this discovery (link) never happened. I'd probably be whining and groaning about the lack of decent music today even worse than I've been doing. Yet based on the stereotypes and musical exposure, I never would have imagined this kind of music being performed in that part of the world. (I've heard too much out-of-tune ranchero on the radio. And I do get strange reactions when I tell people my favorite recent rock artist is from Mexico.) It would have been a horizon that I never knew existed, and never imagined existing.

There may be 20 other artists like that. But if there are, I haven't been able to find them. Then again there may not be any. I don't know.

So as far as I'm concerned, posts like yours are like gold..... Please, list some more....

By the way, the state of the music industry is based on what most people are aware of. There are too many walls out there.

• http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/397495.html

My second thought was: where are your parents from?

"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison

For me, most of the discovery is in classical music and there are worlds to discover. I just got done with a week of repeatedly listening to Pollini playing Shumann's Fantasy in C and Lizst's Sonata. This is just very standard repertoire stuff, but I never spent time with either before. What a revelation this one CD has been. Fantastic.

And then I like to go way off the beaten track. Rubbra and Robert Simpson, one of my recent favorites, Saariaho, anything put out by the Arditti Quartet (and that leads into some unusual corners)...just got some Szymanowski and Scelsi...and there is no end to it. I'm thinking seriously of going for a complete set of Allan Pettersson's symphonies.

And although rock is not my primary listening anymore, I still hear plenty to like. Lately The Good The Bad and the Queen (I'm a sucker for that sort of Brit-pop) and the latest masterpiece from Nick Cave- Grinderman- and the new Bright Eyes is on my to get list...and every month Mojo magazine has a bunch I've never heard of...so I will never run out of music.

• http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/outside/bbs.html

Yes, the modern classicists seem to have a pretty fair lock on a lot of the new music I buy - which is cool since I don't listen to a lot of Mozart, Chopin, etc. You mentioned Robert Simpson who I really enjoy. Elliot Carter is rapidly becoming a favorite as well as Charles Wuorinen and Christian Wolfe.

As for "getting it"... well... sometimes you just have to bathe in it to get it. Sometimes getting it isn't necessary as long as you respond emotionally to the music. The first time I heard Sonic Youth, I flipped. It took a few years and some experience with Glenn Branca and Rhys Chatham before I "got" Sonic Youth.

I understand your point completely. For me, subscriptions to The Wire and Signal To Noise magazines are essentials... of biblical proportions. I like "weird" music, no denying. The interesting thing is that while some of it should certainly be feared as "noise", a lot of it is mild and calm, sometimes chillingly so. Quite by accident, I found a disc by Dead Voices On Air called "How Hollow Heart". They have a piece of there that scares the sh@t out of me. Spooky. Anytime music makes one react emotionally like that, It Is Good.

>By the way, the state of the music industry is based on what most people are aware of. There are too many walls out there.<

Yes, isn't it sad? It's almost like Frank Zappa's "Joe's Garage" and good music is illegal. :). I have a suggestion that's free. Go to Amazon.com and find your 5 favorite discs, preferably ones that aren't too mainstream (no using the first Boston or Lynyrd Skynyrd). Open up the album description. Usually to the right and/or left are lists created by listeners. In some manner, each of those lists equates to your album. The trick is finding the lists that take the music you love and steer you in another direction. As an example, a list under a Sonic Youth disc (which I mentioned in a post just above) might be about Thurston Moore's musical influences. It would then list several discs by those influences. Check 'em out and give one or two of them a try. Usually that sends you in a whole 'nuther direction.

Sampling music is hit or miss as well as time consuming. But I'll never forget when, being a HUGE John Zorn fan, that I bought a CD by a Japanese rock band named Melt Banana. I bought it because it was on Zorn's label. Shortly after hearing it, I bought a few more of theirs on a different label. Not long after that I discovered more Japanese bands such as The Boredoms, Assfort, Friction (KILLER) and Boris.

By the way, if one likes modern classical, thrash, noise, jazz, lounge, improv, string quartets, surf music, punk, or film music, there is a John Zorn disc waiting for them. He's gotta be the most eclectic composer ever. He has an apartment on The Bowery in NYC and he took all the kitchen appliances out so he could store more CD's and books. My kinda guy! :)