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Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto

207.71.192.252
Posted on March 27, 2000 at 01:10:53
jlee


 
My digital front consists of Pioneer DVD-525 + Bel Canto DAC1 connected via Kimber optical cable. I don't have much complaint about the musical performance, but I'm getting more impatient these days by

1) the noise that Pioneer makes on some CDs: I previously posted that the Pioneer is noisy on DVD but quiet on CD, and I apologize if I misled some people which was not my intention. The noise is not present in all CD, but in some CDs I can hear it in quiet music even though I'm 10 feet away. I'm not sure, but I suspect that the ratio of noisy CD is growing.
2) the inability of the pioneer for tracking less than perfect CD: the slightest amount of dirt/fingerprint etc. confuses the DVD player and often it refuses to track it.
3) jitter noise (?): sometimes I hear a high-frequency, short "tick" sound in the middle of the music that is similar to the noise that CD player makes when completely unable to track the CD. Or similar to the sound that some digital wristwatch makes every hour, but much shorter and higher-frequency. Is it the jitter noise?

I'm seeking an option that doesn't cost a fortune. I am considering the auric illuminator tweak, having my DVD player tweaked by Ric Schultz of EVS or buying a new transport. Any suggestion that doesn't involve raiding kids' college fund would be appreciated.


 

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Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 01:25:22
Rodney Gold


 
You are most likely having a problem with digital locking or tracking , the clicks indicate that the dac is finding difficulty locking on to a signal
The noise the DVD player makes as well as its sensitivity gives me the idea that it may be faulty

So try this

1) Use another transport to see if it is indeed the DVD player
2) Reroute the optical cable and make sure its inserted correctly

Personally (albeit never having heard the dVD525) I havent found a DVD player to equal a good transport in respect of CD playback , do you perhaps have a spare CD player with digital output?

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 01:45:17
jlee


 
Thanks Rodney. Let me clarify that the noise in 1) is mechanical, coming from the spin of CD. And the click is intermittent and I'm not sure if it is reproducible. Will pay more attention.

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 02:05:17
Robert


 
Even if you bought the Auric Illuminator, you still will have discs that generate the clicking sound you describe (at least I do), but it's possible that the AI may cut down on how often the clicking happens. Also, I still have heard clicking after Ric modified my 525, so the EVS mods won't guarantee a quiet unit, either (Ric's mods are worth much more than he charges, but if the unit is still going to be making noises I don't know how satisfied you'd be in the long run).

I rarely hear clicking from CDs, though. For me, it's usually a DVD that is clicking, and most of the time the problem is something that can be gently wiped off with the outstanding towels that come with the AI. The only discs I've ever had any Pioneer refuse to track were DVDs that I put smudges on when I first got a DVD player. I didn't realize that I had to be so much more careful handling DVDs because of all the info that is stored on them.

Just my experiences...


 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 03:39:12
Rodney Gold


 
I definately think there is a problem with the laser mechanism , most likely its not tracking properly (mechanical sound) and then the clicks are the results of the mistracking.
there is a solution you can try if the unit is out of warrantee , go to the chemist and get the smallest syringe+needle you can get (ask for an insulin syringe) suck up a bit of Q20/WD40 (Or whatever your silicon lubricant/very light machine oil is) look to see where the laser carrier travels (normally 2 chromed thin rails etc) and perhaps drop a drop or 2 of the lubricant on the rails or on any parts that make the laser sled(carrier) move APART from ANYTHING rubber (Like belts) , lubricate the nylon gers if it has etc - cycle the machine a few times and hopefully the problem goes away - be VERY sparing with the oil , a little goes a LONG way.
DONT do this if the unit is still under guarantee - take it back.

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 06:04:53
Mikeh


 
See my post below on the bel canto/DV525 combo. I have tested almost a dozen DVD players as transports and found them all deficient. Almost any CD player will perform better. The Monarchy DIP will improve your combo substantially. A good used Marantz or other Cd player could be bought for about the same price as the Pioneer DVD player and would be a huge improvement. There are plenty of used Theta transports and others on Audiogon, AudioWeb, etc. I am presently using a CEC belt drive player with a bel canto DAC1 and find it to be fantastic. MUCH better than the Pioneer in almost every way.

 

Monarchy DIP + Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 27, 2000 at 06:58:49
paco


 
you write: "The Monarchy DIP will improve your combo substantially";
is this true no matter what CDP you use as a transport with the BC dac1?
I'm still using my former arcam alpha 9 CDP as a transport precisely
due to fear of DVDs, so wondering if the sound of my BC could be improved
by adding a jitter killer...
best, paco

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 07:28:33
George M


 
I've had decent results with the following used as transports for the Bel Canto DAC1 with a coaxial connection:
CAL Audio DX2, Pioneer PD 59 cd player, Sony XE500 cd player.

 

All DVD Players are not Created Equal, posted on March 27, 2000 at 08:01:48
Bill Spohn


 
I went through a lengthy trial period when looking for a replacement for a dead transport. I listened to quite a few DVD players and the only one I found (I'm sure there are others out there) that was as good or better than the old high end piece it was replacing was the Pioneer Elite DV-09. The lower end Pioneer stuff couldn't cut it.

Mind you, I don't like the D/A converters in it, but that really doesn't matter, as I never use them.

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 27, 2000 at 08:32:35
Mike Bates


 
My Pioneer 606 is not noisy but it often has a problem tracking CD's. I never tried the DAC-1 with anything but the 606, and plan on trying a CD player as the transport tonight. Seems to me you may be on to something here, if the Pioneers are having a problem tracking they could very well be going into error correction and doing other nasties that may be buried under the music even when it isn't "clicking."

I'll try a CD transport tonight and report back if there is an audible difference.

Mike Bates

 

"click" came from a relay..., posted on March 27, 2000 at 09:06:39
EdT


 
That "click" sound most likely came from a relay inside the DVD
player. It wasn't able to track the CDs. It rarely happens on
my transport, but when it did happen, I would turn it off for a while
and the problem was gone... good luck

 

Re: Monarchy DIP + Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 27, 2000 at 09:22:18
Mikeh


 
The DIP greatly improved the Dv525 because of the great amount of jitter. With the CEC transport it is not needed.

 

Re: Arcam Alpha9& Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 27, 2000 at 09:27:44
Mikeh


 
By the way, do you find the DAC1 to be a great improvement over the internal DACs in the Arcam? How does it compare?

 

Re: Arcam Alpha9& Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 27, 2000 at 09:56:15
paco


 
see this, please:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/digital/messages/83.html

all this matter is making me crazy; first I thought the alpha 9 + BC
would be fine; then I was convinced that replacing the alpha 9 by
the pionner 525 would be better; now it seems that the alpha should
be left untouched; then a jitter killer might improve the former
combo; now the killer is said to improve just the pionner combo,
but probably not the alpha 9 combo... what to think??? I don't know...
best, paco

 

Re: Arcam Alpha9& Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 27, 2000 at 10:20:29
DK


 
paco,

I think you would be better served by selling the Alpha9, a fine CD player, and putting the money in a dedicated CD transport. I would imagine a used Alpha9 would bring $900 to $1000 on the used market, and for that, you could get a used Theta Data Basic II or Meridian 500 which would outperform the Alpha9 as a transport substantially.

Don't get me wrong, I have always liked the Arcam CDPs as players, I used to own a 7 and have heard the 9 many times. But as a transport, they suck. From what I've heard from people that have opened up the guts of an Alpha, the digital output is pretty much of an afterthought; they put their money into the DAC output stage obviously. Though as a transport, the Alpha is probably still better than most DVD players ;)


 

Send it back. . ., posted on March 27, 2000 at 10:51:31
Possum


 
What a drag! That's got to be very disheartening in the midst of your speaker search. I wouldn't try any DIY surgery. If at all possible, I'd recommend calling your dealer to replace or repair the unit. If this isn't possible and you are unhappy with the Pioneer, you could keep it for video use only, or replace it with a CD player from Rotel -- they make high-value-for dolllar, generally reliable gear. The 971 gets a lot of good press. I've heard it with SF Signums, which are very revealing, and it was very musical and un-CD sounding.

Good luck!

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer...My $.02, posted on March 27, 2000 at 12:23:07
Dan


 
I have a Pioneer 525 DVD player used as a transport with a Monarchy DIP MKII into a stock MSB Link DAC with (just received) Monolithic HC-2 power supply. I have been using an AA PS-4 power supply. The cables are .5 meter Millersound digital coax cables.

I have had similar experiences with the noisy transport in the Pioneer, although I have not heard any 'clicking' and have not had a problem with tracking CD's.

I first damped the chassis, lid and transport mechanism with blue-tack and cord squares. This served to damp the mechanism noise and benefit sound quality. I then damped the crystal with a piece of blue tack and found a huge improvement. Next, the addition of the Monarchy DIP MKII ($150) made a HUGE improvement in sound. Lastly, I made an isolation platform out of a 3/4" piece of particle board an a half-inflated 12-1/2" bicycle inner-tube. The series of tweaks, for little $$ outlay pushed the performance of my Pioneer 525 and Link DAC combo way over the top.

IMHO if you feel that the unit is defective, send it back. If not, consider trying some of these tweaks. If you are still not happy, then spend more money and get a better unit. For the price, I feel that the Pioneer offers excellent value and versatility (24/96, CD's, CDR's and DVD movies). For me it is a good value and tweaked is an EXCELLENT value. Each to his own.

Dan

 

also, in my system, the 606, posted on March 27, 2000 at 13:10:35
vacman


 
imparts a 'closed in' or 'tunneled' sound when the CD is not perfectly centered in the tray. Sometimes I have to turn the power off and on to get ithe player to sound normal again. Obviously I am getting the strong impresion that I am NOT getting the most out of my Bel Canto Dac with the DVD player as transport. I had the Bel Canto modified at BWS consulting who does a GREAT job with stuff and does not like the DVD transports at all with the Bel Canto. Even when the DVD player is working and tracking well, it's sound was described (by BWS) as slow, uninvolving, and more distorted than a CD transport (theirs). The plan for a cheap CDP as xport sounds good- I will be getting mine soon and can report the differences- I will be getting the BWS custom made transport- costs around $900 or so. It starts out as (get this) a Harmon Kardon CD player (using a Sony based transport) and gets a major reworking- new power supplies, damping, disabling of the digitial section, cryo treatment, etc... Good luck,

Bryan


 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer...My $.02, posted on March 27, 2000 at 13:20:22
jlee


 
Thanks for the info, Dan. I suspect that the tracking/clicking problem may not go away with simple tweaks, but if some blue-tack silences the mechanical noise it would be worth a try.

Do you know where I can find more info on the damping? I have clumsy hands, but I'm great at following directions :)

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer...My $.02, posted on March 27, 2000 at 13:49:13
Robert


 
Dan,

I did the inner tube thing and the DIY rollerblock thing, and all I can say is, if you like the inner tube you'll love the DIY rollerblocks... My 2ยข!
Robert

 

Thanks everybody!, posted on March 27, 2000 at 14:18:11
jlee


 
I think I will try some simple inexpensive things and try to be patient. If it doesn't work, I'll bug you again with transport choice!

 

Re: How much have you expend already with......., posted on March 27, 2000 at 15:01:52
Jose Garcia


 
the Bel Canto + BC Modifications + BWS Transport + Other modifications (additional power supplies, shipping, cables, etc...)?

Is it that bad the DVD as a transport compared to the heavily modified Harmon Kardon? It looks like you are relying on what they are saying about the DVD compared to what they sale. Have you considered other options like the Ah Toeb or other CD transport?

Excuse me but I'm curious about the combination. Please print your findings after listening to them. Good luck.

 

Pops when switching tracks w/ Bel Canto Pioneer combo, posted on March 28, 2000 at 17:31:18
C


 
I use the Pioneer 525 Bel Canto Dac1 combo, and here a electrical pop after hitting play or moving from one track to the next or to the previous. It is not horrendous, but is disconcertingly loud when the volume is at a reasonable level. Has anyone else experienced this problem, or is this a problem with my player. could it be anything else in the line? Thanks. C.

 

Re: Pops when switching tracks w/ Bel Canto Pioneer combo, posted on March 28, 2000 at 19:15:47
jlee


 
I hear it in the beginning of a CD. Not very loud, but clearly audible.

 

Re: Pops when switching tracks w/ Bel Canto Pioneer combo, posted on March 29, 2000 at 05:40:56
Walt


 
I have the same set up, and I hear a very distint pop at the beginning of every track when switching tracks. Occasionally, it is pretty loud. Also, the 525 cd transport mechanism is far from smooth and quiet. I purchased mine just recently, and can still return it, which I am thinking of doing. Denon has a model for about $500 that claims to have a better transport. I may give that a try.

 

Denon output 96/24 for CDs?, posted on March 29, 2000 at 06:31:32
C.


 
Hi Walt,
Does the denon model output 24/96 PCM for CD's? I want to take advantage of the BelCanto's upsampling and would be willing to spend a little more than I did on the Pioneer. Thanks.
C

 

Re: Denon output 96/24 for CDs?, posted on March 29, 2000 at 11:12:32
Walt


 
I think it does -- it's the Denon dvd 1500. I asked Bel Canto about the Pioneer. The guy I talked with said he uses the entry level Denon dvd which still has 24/96 -- the 1500 is the entry level (I think), and costs around $500.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong..., posted on March 29, 2000 at 14:01:20
jlee


 
my understanding is that the 24/96 output affects the DAD format, but not the CD upsampling. Otherwise the choice of transport would be truly limited.

 

Very bad news, posted on March 30, 2000 at 07:58:18
Rodney Gold


 
Those pops can blow tweeters (I have done so)
Its a case of the DAC not locking onto the signal propoerly or a muting circuit gone wrong or badly designed
My z-sys caused that with some of my other stuff , nothing cured it barring a replacement main board that was redisigned to stop that.
The pop didnt "burn" the voice coils , it actually seperated the voice coil from the diaphram - the problem here is that you might have a partial seperation yet the tweeter still works but is down a DB or so or buzzes and distorts at certian freqs and levels.
Digital pops are dangerous and shouldnt be ignored , they can contain massive amounts of HF


 

Re: Arcam Alpha9& Bel Canto DAC1??, posted on March 30, 2000 at 16:37:41
Paul


 
Buy the Pioneer 525 and give it about 96 hours of non stop music to break in and then you will have heard the Bel Canto Dac 1. You must do this with a toslink cable! And, you must set the 525 at 24/96. (See the manual)The best toslink for the bucks is the Vampire- very inexpensive and excellent! For more information speak to Louis at the Stereo Shoppe in Augusta, ga.(Martinez, Ga.)I didn't believe my ears.

 

Re: Pops when switching tracks w/ Bel Canto Pioneer combo, posted on March 30, 2000 at 16:45:45
Paul


 
I have experienced the same POP! I even exchanged my first unit for another but to no avail! Please let me know how the DENON works!. YOU KNOW, THE BEL CANTO IS WORTH THAT FIRST IRRATATING POP!! It is the single biggest improvement I've ever made in my system in twenty years as a highly disturbed audiophile suffering from nervosa!!

 

Re: Help! Not happy with Pioneer + Bel Canto, posted on March 30, 2000 at 16:49:43
Paul


 
You can control the problem with the 525 for less than twenty dollars. E-mail me and I will explain if you are interested.

 

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