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Gieseking's Debussy -- still worth a listen? On sale for $13 at Presto

73.116.103.52

Posted on October 5, 2021 at 16:50:31
Some legendary performances are just that: legendary (see: the Furtwangler/Flagstad Immolation Scene with the Philharmonia, $6.50 for a glimpse of the gods!) but others may very well be "legendary" because they were the first competent and insightful performances available.

As for modern performances, I've enjoyed Ogawa's BIS set for years, as well as Paul Jacobs' magical (and magically-recorded) recital on Nonesuch, but I haven't yet heard the Bavouzet/Chandos which has received raves all over the globe.

But back to Gieseking: what say you? (And please, let's not get into mono vs stereo vs multi-channel, thanks.)

 

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THis one?, posted on October 5, 2021 at 17:13:49
Ivan303
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5 CDs $18 on Amazon, for those without QOBUZ.

For those with, 74 tracks at 24/96.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Yes. nt, posted on October 5, 2021 at 17:15:12
.

 

OK - Fair enough - Let's leave aside mono vs. stereo, etc., posted on October 5, 2021 at 17:47:52
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The last time I heard the Gieseking performances, it was decades ago, and my impression was that the sound was awfully dim and vague. I suspect that, for some listeners, this is their idea of what "impressionism" should sound like. Ergo, viva Gieseking!

HOWEVER, I strongly suspect that with the improvements in remastering in the 21st century, the Gieseking recordings MIGHT now have a more clearly defined sound than those old, somewhat wispy Angel LP's which I heard did.

BTW, this is another good opportunity for me to put in a word for the recordings of Daniel Ericourt of the complete Debussy piano music. Ericourt had a direct connection to Debussy and knew the composer personally. His recordings were actually made in stereo, on the Kapp label, at the very beginning of the stereo era - but they are not very available these days. The best current incarnation of part of this set is the Naxos remastering of the Preludes - not officially available in this country, but available in the UK (e.g., Presto) and the European continent.



Another small part of the Ericourt set is available on DG's "The Debussy Edition" - a 20-CD set, of which the Ericourt performances of some of the smaller, miscellaneous pieces comprise not even an entire CD. The last I heard was that the Kapp masters of these Ericourt performances were in DG's vaults in Hannover. I'd love it if they could see their way to releasing a remastering of Ericourt's entire Debussy set.

 

Yes, yes and yes. He plays a Bechstein, incidentally., posted on October 6, 2021 at 04:23:43
andy evans
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Don't expect the piano to sound like a Steinway - it's a Bechstain and the tone is rounder and warmer.

But once you get past that the performances are timeless. He was an individual voice and had plenty to say about these pieces, just like Paul Jacobs and Cortot. Plenty of insights and a very convincing vision.

I don't share Chris' enthusiasm for Ericourt in any way. Just don't see it. Ah, well. But yes, snap up Gieseking.

 

And it's Debussy, FFS..., posted on October 6, 2021 at 06:09:00
Ivan303
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not Liszt.

I've gotten through most of it last evening. Agree, Gieseking has a lot to say.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Yes - what you say is true - but Debussy himself hated the term, "Impressionism", posted on October 6, 2021 at 11:39:34
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I'm not sure how much we can extrapolate from Debussy's own performances (derived from piano rolls), but, FWIW, they sound to me way more like Ericourt's (who, I'll repeat, knew the composer personally) than Gieseking's. Not that I'm knocking Gieseking's, which, as I also mentioned, probably sound more "defined" now than they used to, and represent a valid alternative in any case. ;-)

 

RE: Yes - what you say is true - but Debussy himself hated the term, "Impressionism", posted on October 6, 2021 at 12:07:27
was Claude's work 'Art Nouveau' then?

did he invent background / elevator music at the tender age of 12?

irregardless, artist never get to define themselves

though they all try

regards,



 

Dang, rv - that post is so typical of you! [nt] ;-), posted on October 6, 2021 at 13:45:34
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RE: Dang, rv - that post is so typical of you! [nt] ;-), posted on October 6, 2021 at 14:08:14
you mean typically consistent unusually high standards of low brow humor

a simple thank you would do

you're welcome

 

Just checked and it's actually $10 now, but...-., posted on October 6, 2021 at 22:42:47
Russell
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Over at Qobuz, they're offering the 24/96 remastered version for $15 (or just $10 for Studio Sublime members), whereas Presto only offers it at 16/44.1. Don't like the fact that there's no digital booklet included, but at such a low price...-...-

Russell

 

RE: Just checked and it's actually $10 now, but...-., posted on October 7, 2021 at 06:24:14
PAR
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Yes, a bargain. My copy is pre 2011 so I didn't get the remastering to 24/96 which was subsequently transferred to DSD and issued as an SACD by EMI(NLA).

Did you buy the download from Qobuz? If not I would not assume that because a digital booklet is not available for streaming that it will not be included as a .pdf with the download (you can only find out by purchasing when you will see the zip folder and contents). Digital booklets are often not made available for streaming on Qobuz, no doubt due to copyright issues.
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

RE: Just checked and it's actually $10 now, but...-., posted on October 7, 2021 at 07:30:29
Presto has the hi-res as well

 

I had Gieseking's for years, now I mostly listen to Claudio Arrau's set. , posted on October 7, 2021 at 08:23:12
tinear
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I greatly admire Richter's Debussy, as well, but Arrau's slower pace, nuanced muted tonality--- it just seems of another world. That he was in his late 70s when the recording was made (when many artists have learned to eliminate fireworks in favor of poetry) is remarkable.

 

Yes, and no booklet...-.:-( (nt), posted on October 7, 2021 at 12:18:55
Russell
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nt

 

Weird...It doesn't show up when you search for "Debussy Gieseking", posted on October 7, 2021 at 13:32:40
Russell
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strange...

 

RE: Yes, and no booklet...-.:-( (nt), posted on October 7, 2021 at 14:26:01
PAR
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That is too bad. It is happening frequently these days with budget releases. I guess not having to pay fees or royalties for the essays in the booklet or for any photos in addition to the cover are the reasons.

I just hope that the metadata at least is correct (not always the case unfortunately ).

"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams

 

Well, since most of the Preludes, Images and Estampes don't demand a lot of fireworks anyway. . . , posted on October 7, 2021 at 16:57:48
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. . . it seems that Arrau's strengths (e.g., his deep, cultivated tone) are in harmony with this music and can do justice to it. I actually wouldn't argue with your Arrau preference too strenuously at all. Of course, what Arrau recorded is only a little over one-third of Debussy's piano output, but it's definitely worthwhile listening. However, there are other views of this music which are every bit as valid and accomplished (in certain ways, even more so) as Arrau's. You mentioned Richter, and that's certainly another excellent choice, but there are Moravec (also incomplete), Zimerman, Bavouzet, Koroliov (Preludes only), et al. too. As I like to say, we are living in a golden age of fantastic performances of much of the standard repertoire.

 

Arrau, posted on October 8, 2021 at 04:41:45
pbarach
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I saw an Arrau concert near the end of his career. The playing (Beethoven) was labored and tedious, but the Debussy encores were absolutely magical in shading and tone.

 

Really? Youtube has a selection of his Beethoven interpretations when he was, posted on October 8, 2021 at 07:16:35
tinear
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already old (Arrau :-)) and I wouldn't say they were anything but passionate, intense, and lyrical. They aren't typical, no, but I'd say they reflect the same sort of deepening of understanding also shown in late Rembrandt paintings, i.e. more feeling and less strict adherence to detail. When watching and listening to the Waldstein, it is obvious that he chose this later style; it was not an age-dictated one.

 

I saw Arrau in concert three times when he was old (in the 80's), posted on October 8, 2021 at 10:41:35
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Beethoven figured on every one of the programs on these concerts. Let's just say. . . he was variable - by which I mean it was NOT always obvious (to me anyway) that the technique and "style" he employed were intentional. (Some listeners might feel that "more feeling and less attention to detail" is a roundabout way of saying "sloppy".) Nevertheless, he had his moments and he wrote movingly about the late Beethoven Sonatas. And I still support the idea that Arrau's "late" playing was indeed suited to many of Debussy's piano works, especially the Preludes.

 

Did he sound like this?, posted on October 8, 2021 at 10:53:45
tinear
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Right around the reported time you saw him?

 

Similar, posted on October 8, 2021 at 11:50:15
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I can tell you this, tin: if a young pianist today played the first movement of the Waldstein like Arrau did in that video (with the memory lapse at 7:05 - 7:10, as well as other infelicities in the course of the first movement), he/she would not make it past the first round of any of the major piano competitions. Fact. This is not to say that there still aren't some admirable qualities in the performance, despite its dreadfully slow tempo (a far-cry from Czerny's suggested speed of half not equal to 88 beats per minute - the same Czerny who heard Beethoven himself play the work).

Here's an alternative, introduced by German President Franz-Walter (Frank-Walter) Steinmeier. The English starts at 2:44 and the performance starts at 4:10. After hearing this performance, you may still like Arrau better, and I can't argue tastes. But this performance below is for me much closer to the heart of the matter, without forcing me to make allowances for a pianist's technical limitations.






View YouTube Video

 

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