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about Celi....

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Posted on April 19, 2000 at 14:40:12
dex


 
I dont know if this will be of any help, but here are some facts about Celi....

Sergiu Celibidache was born in Roman ( a small town in NE Romania), on June 26th or 28th (you can find both dates if you do a search), 1912. My mother's family is from the same town. I spent many days walking by his house (now a museum).
He studied in the Berlin Conservatory under Thomas Gmeindl, Thiessen and Stein, and at the University of Berlin under the musicologists Schering and Schonemann. During the war he played in Paris nightclubs and in a dacing school. In 1945, although as yet inexperienced, he was appointed resident conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic Orch., with which he visited US in 1948, sharing the conducting with Furtwangler, from whose interpretative ability and example of musicianship he vastly profited (later he lost his position at Berliner Phil. to Herbert von Karajan). Soon conducting appointments with various European Festivals. He visited London in 1949 and Mexico in 1950. His centre of activity as a conductor, however, remained in Europe, where he could be seen and heard at the head of German, Italian, Swedish and Swiss orchestras. He spent 6 years as principal conductor in Milan (1960-1968), then went to Sweden for a period of 4 years, then to Zurich for a year or so. In 1979 he followed Kempe and he was appointed principal conductor and General Music Director at Munchner Phil. where he stayed until his death on 14 August 1996.
Celibidache produced several treatises on composing, a monograph on Josquin des pres and he composed, among others, four symphonies. As a conductor, Celibidache was a personality under tremendous self-control. His natural discipline and exuberance (he was practically dancing when conducting) was moderated by careful studies in depth of all works he took in hand. Although he was without question one of the most important and original conductors in recent memory, there aren't many recorded performances of his. Celibidache wasn't a prolific recorder. According to him, it goes without saying that music is caputred by a microphone, electronically processed and reproduced in another acoustical space is no longer music: "If you grind up a living person in a sausage-making machine, what comes out at the other end is no longer the same person he was before, but, at best, a new kind of sausage!"
He was a specialist in Sibelius and Bruckner. He recorded Bruckner with Munchener Phil. rather late in his life: Te Deum and 7th Sym. in 1982 and 1994. Sym. 3 in 1987, 4th in 1988, Mass in F minor in 1990 and 6th Sym. in 1991. Then 5th and 8th Sym. in 1993 and 9th in 1995. All of these will be release by EMI and are MUST HAVE!

Well, I hope I wasn't too boring and I'd like to mention that I had the pleasure of hearing him live in a performance of Bruckner 5th live in Munchen. The best live performance I've ever been to.

keep listening!

 

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Re: about Celi...., posted on April 19, 2000 at 14:56:58
Rob


 
Don't forget Brahms and Beethoven, Schumann and even Wagner. Furthermore his 'Pictures of an exhibition', his 'Bolero' and some other French pieces are in command imo.

His core business - cases for Celibidache- was the German repertoire and how to bring out the tonal language and harmonics in the music and he thought epiphenomena, the acoustic circumstances in which the music is recreated could never be captured on a recording since music is alive it's contemplative and reaches for things outside time and space. That's why he also said that a recording was like a picture of making love, it's static.

Celi has been hurt a lot in his life and making music together ( he knew every musician by their Christian name) was depersonilizing himself especially because he thought making music is rooted in the desire for freedom. Perceptions of sounds by human consciousness means liberation from emotions and trandescence of sound makes the musical experience possible.

Another feature is his use of tempi: Celi thought the human mind was not capable to find structure in high tempi where a lot of music was going on. ( Why do we accept this with a computer that the tempo of transmission is going down and not with the human brain, he once said angry again)

Interpretive freedom is a farce and the musical event is authorative and in his Zen idea the beginning and the end, like in all moments of the musical process one and that's why he focuses on consonants, because each note has a relationship with each other note.

Rob

 

addition (long), posted on April 19, 2000 at 15:41:54
Rob


 
Markand Thakar followed a course at Celi and this is an outline of his experiences in Munich:

Music is nothing.
Sound could become music.

The end must be in the beginning,
and the beginning in the end.

I am here because i am not here.

Music lives in the eternal now.
Music is the now becoming now.

"No! Too flat. No! Too sharp. Ahh, yessss!! Just so." A conflict of intonation systems disintegrates;
the sounds join as if indivisible. "No! Too soon. Why so? Yes! Wonderful." A conflict of temporal
placement (ensemble) dissolves; again the sounds join as if indivisible. "Basses, No! You cover the
tenors. Why so? You didn't listen? Wake up! Bongiorno! Again. Aaaaahhh -- Yes!! It is so. Do you
hear?" They do. I do too. Another conflict -- this time of levels of intensity (balance) -- evaporates
as the basses structure their volume in a musical relation to that of the rest of the choir. The sounds
cease to be sounds. They join, they melt, into a celestial balance. And we who experience them lose
ourselvesour selves -- in them. There is for us no more consciousness of subject, and no more
consciousness of object (certainly the experience could not take place without subject and object, but
they are not present for us in our experience). There is only consciousness -- pure consciousness. In
the English language the only word for this transporting experience is beauty; beauty on the highest
level.

Celibidache insists on no less than creating the conditions for this narcotic, celestial experience of
beauty without interruption in every piece. To create these conditions, we must present the sounds in
such a way that they are transcendingly beautiful; we must unfold the sounds so that the open listener
can, through focusing his attentive consciousness exclusively on them, have an experience
characterized by loss-of-self, an experience that is subject-less and object-less. The sounds must
be present so that the subject is not a necessary component of the experience: they are present in that
way when every attribute of every sound participates in a single entity -- a unity. Not that imaginary
emperors-new-clothes unity that is ascribed to a work if the main theme recurs from time to time,
but an experiential unity, an indivisible unity of experienced sounds.

The rehearsal process is one of reducing multiplicities. The multiplicity of conflicting intonation
systems is reduced into a unity of intonation systems; and the multiplicity of temporal placement
systems is dissolved into a unity. With each multiplicity dissolved, I the listener am no longer needed
as an active component in the process. I am not needed to connect the out-of-tune tones; they come
to me pre-connected, already within their non-conflicting logical relationships, and I am left free --
free to experience more sounds. But I am also not needed to connect the tones that are not together;
they, too, come to me pre-connected, already in their non-conflicting relationships. Again I am free
to experience more sounds. This freedom comes to me as beauty. When I experience a momentary
fragment of exquisite beauty in musical performance, it is because the sounds have come to me in just
this pre-connected way, freeing me from actively participating in their connection. My sublime
experience is rudely snuffed out by the first sound that comes to me as unconnected -- for example,
the first out-of-tune tone, the first tone experienced as not together, or the first pedestrian structure
of balance. Celibidache strives to eliminate these conditions that put an end to this magical
experience.

More enigmas fall. There is an almost durationless now-point that we experience as an immediate
now; it is past as soon as it arrives. There is also another vantage point from which we experience:
that is the extended present with which we experience temporally extended objects. For instance, the
sounding of the name CARNEGIE HALL has temporal extension; it has a measurable duration. But
we experience it all as a single, simultaneous, momentary event, all in the present. Although we do not
hear the sound C concurrently with the final sound L, the experience of the sound C is retained as part
of our experience in the now-point in which we hear the sound L. Likewise, although we dont hear
the sound L concurrently with the sound C, the sound L is part of the essence of the sound C. The
sound C would be essentially different without the context of the sound Lthe sound L is protended in
the immediate now-point in which we hear the sound C. The sounds C and L, and the entire
continuity of sounds in between, are experienced simultaneously in the experience of an indivisible
temporally extended object such as the sounding of the name CARNEGIE HALL. When we
experience a musical passage as beautiful, it comes to us in a similar way: simultaneously, and as
indivisible. (The difference is that I ordinarily would not have a loss-of-self experience through
listening to the sounding of the name, but, for a complex network of reasons, I do have it when the
experience of the musical passage leads to the highest beauty.) Thus, THE END MUST BE IN THE
BEGINNING, AND THE BEGINNING IN THE END. Only when the last note fully participates in
the first, and the first fully participates in the last, will I experience this highest form of beauty. MUSIC
LIVES IN THE ETERNAL NOW. MUSIC IS THE NOW BECOMING NOW. Music can happen
when the now-point experience -- in which the entire grouping occurs simultaneously as a
continuity of retentions, actual now-point experiences, and protentions -- is exchanged for a new
now-point experience -- in which again the continuity of the entire grouping occurs simultaneously
-- in an unboken continuum of such exchanges.

Some say he is eccentric -- that he demands too many rehearsals. That is true, if you listen to the
relationship between the sounds and the score, or the difference between the sounds of the
Celibidache concert and those of the Toscanini recording. If you are willing to limit yourself to
ordinary musical experiences (as pleasant as they assuredly are), then it is quite reasonable to stop
rehearsing when the ensemble plays together, and in tune, and with a beautiful sound, and with a
certain excitement. If, however, you insist on the highest, spine-tingling, magical experience of
musical beauty that is available, then there is no choice but to rehearse until the oboe joins with the
other woodwinds -- until every tone joins with every other. Nor is that as impossible a task as it
seems. It is eminently achievable if the musicians play with that experience as their goal.


 

there are lots..., posted on April 19, 2000 at 15:43:01
dex


 
...of facts about Celi...i was posting only in general for people that don't know him at all...

 

Re: there are lots..., posted on April 19, 2000 at 15:46:24
Rob


 
We should honour this man Adrian, with every possible cell in our bodies. It worked out with Gergiev, so why not try it with a slightly greater conductor?

Rob

 

Re: While you're on the subject(about Celi....), posted on April 19, 2000 at 16:11:14
Neil E.


 
I saw a few used cds with Celi yesterday when I picked up the Mahler, on the EMI Classic label. There were three, Mozart & Haydn and someone else. Are these recommened works?

Neil

 

you can do better...., posted on April 19, 2000 at 16:22:41
dex


 
...for Mozart and Haydn, but is worth trying....i have that cd...too slow, but very nice...

 

Re: While you're on the subject(about Celi....), posted on April 19, 2000 at 16:22:50
Rob


 
I understood his 'Jupiter' is very beautiful, but never heard it as my relationships with Mozart and Haydn are a bit cool to say the least, but if you want to hear the genius Celi I'd do it and compare it with other performances; you will notice lots of clarity in the performance, everything which happens has a purpose.

See my addition below,

Rob

 

TOO SLOW?, posted on April 19, 2000 at 16:24:14
Rob


 
Don't you see Celi's face getting red from anger up there in heaven, don't you see those dark clouds appearing?

Rob

 

some quotes:, posted on April 19, 2000 at 16:39:47
Rob


 
I hope you read German, but I'll translate them if you want:


Wieviel Manieren gibt es, von der Wahrheit wegzukommen? Milliarden. Wieviele Wege gibt es, bei der Wahrheit zu bleiben? Einen. Sehen Sie,
das ist die Einmaligkeit der Musik, die Alternativlosigkeit. Es gibt nicht zwei Erste Brahms.

Musik ist nicht fixierbar. Wenn Sie die Fünfte von Beethoven spielen - es gibt sie nicht, aber sie entsteht jedesmal. Das ist die einzige
Wahrheit.

Die Schallplatte ist die Negierung jeder Musikalität. Wenn Sie mir eine Schallplatte vorspielen, eine von mir sogar, eine Rundfunkaufnahme,
gehe ich ein. So quälend ist das. Was die Platte nicht kann: die ursprüngliche Spontaneität wiederherstellen. Die göttliche Präsenz, die ist ganz
ausgeschlossen.

Auf die Frage nach der Interpretation antwortete Celibidache: "Wenn Sie genau wissen, wo Sie wohnen und abends nach Hause gehen -
interpretieren Sie dann den Weg?"

Rob

 

Re: TOO SLOW?, posted on April 20, 2000 at 07:58:11
Dr. T


 
Celi is not in Heaven yet. He is still on his way. Not due to arrive for another century or two. He is savoring each step of the journey.

 

Re: TOO SLOW?, posted on April 20, 2000 at 08:32:08
Rob


 
In the stratosphere isn't much oxygene and this requires a slow tempo, otherwise you'd suffocate.

Rob

 

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