Please indulge a few newbie questions. Although I have a graduate degree in music, I have no background in electronics and am simply terrified of cables.

1. Are there any published studies (particularly on the web) with proper double-blind procedure to prove that people really can tell the difference between various cables, interconnects, etc.? I've been told by a number of people (albeit with no proof of their own) that it's all a big sham, so I want to make my mind up the right way.

2. Do those here have any recommendations for inexpensive starter cables (particularly speaker cables), or reasonably-priced sources with good return policies?

3. What physical process does a cable undergo as it is "breaking-in" and how can this affect the resultant sound?

Thank you in advance - I'm sure you must all deal with far too many questions such as these.

Simon

 Re: I want to believe! - Fred Barnes 01:07:13 7/29/99 (1)
 Re: I want to believe! - Simon 00:31:19 7/30/99 (0)
 Replies - Simon 15:29:21 7/23/99 (0)

...

Show full thread outline!

 Re: I want to believe! - Fred Barnes 01:07:13 7/29/99 (1)
 Re: I want to believe! - Simon 00:31:19 7/30/99 (0)
 Replies - Simon 15:29:21 7/23/99 (0)
 Re: I want to believe! - Jon Risch 19:53:46 7/22/99 (0)
 Re: I want to believe! - Bob Neill 07:06:31 7/22/99 (0)
 Re: I want you to read rules - gnat 03:55:01 7/22/99 (7)
 Distinction, Difference - Simon 16:42:01 7/22/99 (4)
 I don't blame you - Batman 11:45:34 7/23/99 (0)
 Re: Distinction, Difference - BobM 06:50:43 7/23/99 (0)
 Re: Distinction, Difference - gnat 01:07:32 7/23/99 (0)
 No, wait. - Keith 17:08:52 7/22/99 (0)
 Re: I want you to read rules - Stephæn 11:25:05 7/22/99 (1)
 Oh I got it. My sincere condolences, Stephæn! (nt:) - gnat 04:26:47 7/23/99 (0)
 Re: I want to believe! - Thorsten 03:40:09 7/22/99 (0)

You want to believe? Simply make a set of Jon Risch's or my own DIY Interconnects and Speaker Cables.... Then try for yourself.... Preferably using the testmethode that cannot be mentioned in this Forum....

>>>>Please indulge a few newbie questions. Although I have a graduate degree in music, I have no background in electronics and am simply terrified of cables.<<<<

Don't be terrified. Cables, although some look like large snakes are neither poisenous, nor are they constritors (well maybe to the bank account). At any rate, no cases of Cables biting anyone or swallong small childrens or pet's have been reported. So relax. Cables are perfectly safe.

>>>>1. Are there any published studies (particularly on the web) with proper double-blind procedure to prove that people really can tell the difference between various cables, interconnects, etc.? <<<<

This is a non-subject in this Forum. Please do not use the "D" Word again. However, I know of two British Magazine who engage regulary in testing (using the methode that cannot be mentioned here) of Cables, though for preference and not difference as such. These Are HiFi-Choice and HiFi-News.

These tests (as well as those of electronics) are carried out by People who do have a good deal of Credibility and take care to set up their tests in such a way as to eliminate any sighted prejudice.

Some of the stuff from the HiFi-Choice Cable tests is published on the net (www.hifichoice.co.uk). The German Klang + Ton Magazine (primarily DIY Electronics and Speakers) has also engaged in extensive testing (using the methode that cannot be mentioned here) of many so-called "Voodoo" and "Snake-Oil" things in audio and has found in many (but not all) cases reliably distinguishable differences.

There will be those who will claim that non of these tests have been carried out incorrectly (because they did give positive results where those people obtained negative ones) but I do believe this can be dismissed as "sour grapes".

>>>>I've been told by a number of people (albeit with no proof of their own) that it's all a big sham, so I want to make my mind up the right way.<<<<

There is only one. Try it out for yourself.

>>>>2. Do those here have any recommendations for inexpensive starter cables (particularly speaker cables), or reasonably-priced sources with good return policies?<<<<

Most Dealers will allow you to loan Cables. I would (personally - and that includes my Preferrences) suggest you try Goertz MI2 Cable if your Amplifier will be stable into highly capacitive loads.

Alternatively, I would recommend you try the DIY Cable Recipy I have published for what I call the FFRC....

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ffrc_e.html

This Cable, despite some criticism from various sides is meant as a good "allround" Cable, with electrical values (RLC) that promote relatively good performance from a very inexpensive Cable which will be extremely likely to work with any kind of Equipment.

I am the first person to note that it is a compromised design that can be bettered, but the compromise was done on PURPOSE.

>>>>3. What physical process does a cable undergo as it is "breaking-in" and how can this affect the resultant sound?<<<<

That is a good question. I have so far observed major break0in effects with only one specific Cable, that was with a Cardas based Phono Interconnect (Tonearm to Preamp).

All other Cables (commercial or DIY) I ever tried showed very little or no percievable breakin. I have however had some stuff to read from Bob Sireno (Bound for Sound) whoe describes a number of processes on a sub molecular/atomic Level (including Quantum Tunneling) which he attributes to the audbile Breakin Effects....

Given that everytime I try to seirously look into Quantum Physics and the associated Math I get serious headaches, I have to take his word for it.

BTW, I have also up to now found little evidence of directionality in Wire (there is a type of Cable Directionality that is down to the physical construction, but that is another matter), though again, I do not rule out the reality of the effect.

So, nothing from a Guru here.

All I can suggest is that you try for yourself and that you try to use solid-core / litz type Cables as opposed to ones using multistarnded Conductors.

Ciao Thorsten

Dear Wonderful Simon,

Please indulge some old-timer ramblings.

Have you read Asylum Posting Rules?
If not, please do it.
If yes, then you should know, that
"Discussion of DBT and ABX, either for or against, is strictly prohibited"
in Cables Section.

As I understand, you CAN post your questions in General Asylum.

Thank you in advance - I'm sure you'll understand if
moderators remove your message from *this*particular* forum.

enjoy,
gnat

• Click here for the rules.

I have found that interconnecting cables, speaker cables, and even substitute power cables can make a fairly dramatic difference in how a system sounds. So far, I have found the Nordost cables (they make all three)among the best -- in opening up a system, from top to bottom, and in generally smoothing out the response. [nordost.com] There are a considerable number of reviews of their various cables on audioreview.com
They take a devilishly long time to break in and I haven't a clue why: lining up recalcitrant atoms, I guess. Virtually all major high-end dealers carry Nordost. A web friend in North Bay, Ontario tells me that the Super
Flat Line speaker cable, far from their most expensive, transformed his system. His primary concern is music and his wife plays the violin.I'd be happy to send you his email address if you like. I use SPM interconnects between my cd player and preamp and between my preamp and amp; when I can afford it, I'll get SPM speaker cable as well. Based on what it did for my system, I can't imagine being without it. I tried out their ac power cord,called the El Dorado,and found that by lowering the noise floor, it let a good deal more ambient information through. A fine improvement. Electraglide makes a slightly better and a lot more expensive cable, which improves bass response and seems to increase overall resolution still further. I think the best level to begin auditioning Nordost interconnects is at the Blue Heaven model. Above that is Red Dawn, SPM, and Quattro Fil. You will hear what Nordost cable is capable of with the Blue Heaven. Above that it gets increasingly better but the value curve steepens considerably.

This is one man's opinion, based entirely on experience. I haven't a clue why any of this works but am also not one to throw money at imagined benefits. Email me directly if you like.

Bob Neill
Amherst, MA

Thanks a lot, gnat. ;-)

æ

I would not think of posting in a public forum without having read the rules. Moreover, my request specifically avoids "discussion of DBT and ABX, either for or against," instead asking simply to be directed to further reading off this site. The word "proper" in my posting attempts to side-step polarizing opinions on the subject (cited in the DBT rules sub-page as the principle reason for this policy) by acknowledging the difficulty in generating useful data.

Nevertheless, I accept your rejoinder and, excepting replies to you and to those who have graciously offered advice, I will not post here again.

Simon

Simon, I think most people here would recommend that you try some in your own system (where you're familiar with the sound) and hear it for yourself. No one's going to force you to either believe or not believe.

I'm sure people here would love to recommend you cables if you let us know your system so we can suggest cables that can nicely balance your components. What is your budget for trying out cables?

Hope it helps answer a part of your question.

While we do not want to generate a flame fest due to endless DBT debates, your request for information is a reasonable one, and I would be glad to direct you via private e-mail. Just send me a note.

As for your other questions, #2, I can provide details for DIY audio cables, both speaker and interconnect. See:
http://members.xoom.com/Jon_Risch/

These DIY cables are capable of performance to at least the mid price levels of the retail cvables out there, and in some peoples opinions, all the way to the top of the heap. They usually tend to be heard as handily outperforming entry level retail products, at a cost no greater than even the cheapest entry level cables.

Re #3:
Cable break-in is not a phenomenon I have been able to identify reliably via my own listening tests, however, there are scientific possibilities, and I do not discount the fact that other audiophiles seem to hear the effect. Under more casual listening conditions, I do seem to notice a little bit of the effect, but nothing I would characterize as obvious or easily noticable.

The most common and probable cause of cable break-in is settling of the insulation's polar molecules in terms of a neutral electric field position. All plastic dielectrics are somewhat polar in nature, and the individual molecules (which can be quite large) will tend to want to re-orient with application of an electric field. There is no guarantee that the molecules were extruded in a totally neutral orientation with respect to the opposite polarity conductors.

The fact that many of the large cable manufacturers still use the arc discharge method of cable dielectric testing during manufacture, where a cable is exposed to a HV to check for insulation coverage and quality, and that the cable extruding machines , even when grounded, can not totally discharge the electrostatic charges that tend to build up due to the internal friction of the dielectric AS IT IS extruded (after all, the dielectric IS an insulator, and the charge will not just flow away) and while it hardens from a flowing plastic to a solid, means that some of the dilelectric may hold a semi-permanent or temporary polarization.

The other popular theory is that the conductors may settle in, the crystal boundaries repair themselves with time and current flow, and that the sound gets smoother because of this. Bending a wire in too small a radius WILL fracture many of the copper crystals, and the grain boundaries will increase greatly. After a cable has been setting still after being plugged in, random thermal activity, and the flow of current within the cable could effective aid repair of some of those broken boundaries.

Jon Risch

>>>
Moreover, my request specifically avoids "discussion of DBT
and ABX, either for or against," instead asking simply to be
directed to further reading off this site.
<<<

I appreciate your honest intentions. However, questions
like your #1 ALWAYS produce DBT/ABX discussions, no matter
how you try to formulate 'em. "That's how it goes".

Seems I made wrong assumption that you knew it already, sorry.

And, as I've already stated, you can post this question
@ General forum... just don't wonder if it produces
*some* explosion over there. :)

>>>
Nevertheless, I accept your rejoinder and,
excepting replies to you and to those who have
graciously offered advice, I will not post here again.
<<<

Another hint: your questions #2 and #3 may produce the
same DBT/ABX discussion INSTEAD of recommendations that
you probably expect, if posted @ General Asylum - just
because that kind of discussions isn't prohibited there. :)

But you can get these recommendations @ *this* section,
of course. The whole idea of DBT-free zone was exactly
to separate scientific discussions from recommendations,
based only on scientifically uncontrolled subjective
experience.

I hope that it explains the Difference between your questions,
and now you can make a proper Distinction to place them into
appropriate Asylum forums.

regards, gnat

Don't go away, mad or otherwise. Don't take the slap on your wrist personally. There's still lots to learn in this forum. Ask your questions, just don't ask for scientific proof, and do expect a whole host of personal preferences. There is definitely a good amount of science, materials, engineering design and other theories discussed here that prove enlightening and sometimes educational if you keep your mind open. Differing opinions make for good discussions, as long as the condescending behavior is left at rec.audio.opinion.

Of course, if you are a member of the "D" team then there other forums for these discussions, both here and at other sites and newsgroups.

Enjoy,
Bob

Bob Neill, I'm afraid I am not the Simon of rec.music.classical.recordings, and have never visited that forum, though I've offered an opinion or two elsewhere on occasion. At any rate, I'll look into Nordost and have printed out your other remarks.

Keith, as I mentioned, I am an audio newbie, so my first system is quite modest compared to most here: Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers, Denon PMA-525R integrated, Sony ES CD player, Audioquest Turquoise interconnects, unknown (.60/ft.) speaker cable. I love the speakers very much (especially for the price) but will soon upgrade the amp and speaker cables, then the source. In time, I will upgrade the speakers to the Dynaudio Contour 1.8 floorstanders (which will make the current first system into a second system for my practice studio), so will be looking for an amp and cables that will ultimately bring out the best of the better speakers. Hopefully, that all makes sense.

John Risch, I will try to e-mail you sometime for the information you said you had regarding you-know-what. In the meantime, I've already read through much of your website and have learned a lot. Thanks for that and for your other advice.

Simon

At 50 years of age, with electronics hardware background, well, wire was
wire, at audio frequencies.

Then, at many peoples suggestion, I went with my cables (speaker and interconnect), and auditioned them against "specialty" cables.

To make a long story short, I heard for myself, and bought new cables (Straightwire brand). Not expensive. About $40 a set for 1m interconnects and about $3 A foot for speaker cable. Not $100 a foot, or 99 cents a foot, but a reasonable amount for me. I heard a great difference between my cables and the new $40 ones. A slight difference between the $40 and $150. I was happy with the $40 ones (Straightwire Chorus).

My system is modest, but I can hear the difference. I am very happy with my choices.

You must be happy with yours. Let your own ears, not someones blustering, make your choice for you.

Fred

And I will look into the Straightwire Chorus. At this price, I could even pick up a few new CD's.

Simon