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Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics

72.133.34.30

Posted on September 20, 2016 at 15:23:08
It seems that Rick is now selling cables under the name "High Fidelity Cables". Rick told me over the phone on more than one occasion that god designed his cables. Now I read on another website that Rick is actually an electrical engineer. True? I have to admit I don't much care for the guy after the way he treated a good friend of mine, but an electrical engineer? That's news to me.

And in case you're wondering, the price of his top of the line power cord is a mere $12,995. At least according to one of the reviews I read.

Does anyone remember the first Virtual Dynamics power cord retailing for only $50?

 

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RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 20, 2016 at 15:57:05
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3349
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 4, 2000
Does anyone remember the first Virtual Dynamics power cord retailing for only $50?
Yes, I gave mine to a friend several years ago. I found it to be stiff and awkward....plus it didn't bring anything to the table for me sonically. I think it might still be hidden away in his closet of unused audio treasures. We both concluded that it would have been a better weapon than a power cord. As always however, YMMV.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 20, 2016 at 16:03:09
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
No "seems"....Rick established HFC several years ago, manufacturing his new line since that time. His "new" cables have been well-reviewed, if you care to look that up via Google.

Regarding your comment "god designed his cables"....Rick is a devout Christian, and speaks from his heart. Having known him for many, many years, he has never proselytized in my prescence, but will certainly share his feelings when asked.

Your comments about his "old" and new pricing, with such purposeful extremes, are rather inflammatory....to what purpose (of yours) do they serve? Rick has always had several different build levels over the years, especially during the Virtual days. Some were a few hundred, and some were well into the thousands of dollars....nothing new there. And he sold a boatload, to very happy customers.

So what's your point?

 

Reads like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed... N/T, posted on September 20, 2016 at 20:22:39
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31815
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2004
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Sue, My cables were designed by..., posted on September 20, 2016 at 21:44:41
yup, you guessed it ,Casper the Friendly Ghost. Only $12,994,free shipping. Very transparent sounding! And believe me, I say this in all sincerity. Believe me. I mean like really. Like cross my heart. And this ghost is extremely friendly, I would say he is the friendliest ghost that I have ever come across. Maybe the friendliest ghost in the whole wide universe. Maybe we can get together compare these cables, yeah, god vs Casper. That would be a gas! T456

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 21, 2016 at 05:33:57
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
Is Rick Schultz also Ric Schultz?

 

RE: Sue, My cables were designed by..., posted on September 21, 2016 at 05:35:50
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
"yup, you guessed it ,Casper the Friendly Ghost. Only $12,994,free shipping. Very transparent sounding! And believe me, I say this in all sincerity. Believe me. I mean like really. Like cross my heart. And this ghost is extremely friendly, I would say he is the friendliest ghost that I have ever come across. Maybe the friendliest ghost in the whole wide universe. Maybe we can get together compare these cables, yeah, god vs Casper. That would be a gas! T456"

Whaaaaaat are you saying? I know not...

 

Protect yourself..., posted on September 21, 2016 at 05:37:23
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2229
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
by putting the word "Virtual" in the name of your company. That clear demonstrates that nothing is "real" in the claims that you make.

 

Actually, his top cord sells for $20,900 for a 1 meter cord, posted on September 21, 2016 at 06:28:03
Justlisten2
Audiophile

Posts: 1266
Location: SE PA
Joined: March 8, 2001
Quite pricey indeed. I have to admit that I am not a fan of Rick's sales methods, nor I was not a fan of his Virtual Dynamics designs, but his High Fidelity cables sound pretty good to me.

I am still using his interconnects. I have used his speaker cables and power cords, and though they are good, I think they are waaaaay over-priced.

 

NO! No, no, no... , posted on September 21, 2016 at 07:57:41
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31815
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2004
Definitely not.

Easy to confuse the name; difficult to confuse the men.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

You do realize Casper is a wimp? nt., posted on September 21, 2016 at 08:14:05
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
Shave and a haircut, 2 bits..

 

RE: You do realize Casper is a wimp? nt., posted on September 21, 2016 at 10:17:13
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
I knew he was a wuss at age six watching those cartoons back in the 60's. I never understood why anyone was afraid of him.


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

An aside: who was the guy busted selling ordinary wire in garden hoses years back? Cannot find.., posted on September 21, 2016 at 13:10:52
Anyway, I hope this question is not too fr off topic. There was a fellow busted for selling common extension cords he wrapped in garden hose and sold for big bucks.
This was somewhere about ten years ago?
Anyway trying to find his name. Anyone remember??

 

RE: Sue, My cables were designed by..., posted on September 21, 2016 at 13:43:37
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
...proving you are as skilled at humor as audio tweaking,

 

RE: An aside: who was the guy busted selling ordinary wire in garden hoses years back? Cannot find.., posted on September 21, 2016 at 14:08:44
Well SS, I can tell you one thing, it wasn't god.

 

RE: You do realize Casper is a wimp? nt., posted on September 21, 2016 at 14:13:13
When Sue and I compare Casper's cable to gods we will see who's the wimp!

 

I'm curious have you...., posted on September 21, 2016 at 17:11:02
Mossback
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Washington, the State
Joined: November 17, 2001
Have you tried one of those power cords yourself? Not taking sides in or calling you out just curious.

 

Quote from 3/24/2008: "$300 Virtual Dynamics Power 3 cables contain about $15 worth of components.", posted on September 21, 2016 at 21:47:46
Found it. Here it is.
I knew it was the same guy... LOL

I heard he 'apologized.. Yeah, but did he refund them all?
I remember some said they forgave him. He still should have done the right thing and gave them the money back. It would have been the Christian thing to do.

Maybe some other folks also remember..
"Fool me once...."

 

RE: Quote from 3/24/2008: "$300 Virtual Dynamics Power 3 cables contain about $15 worth of components.", posted on September 21, 2016 at 22:32:34
I wonder if god designed them also. Probably not, god designed stuff demands the big bucks. What a crock.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 22, 2016 at 03:30:28
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Alan,

what kind of crock are you pushing? Usually, I respect your thoughts/impressions...

 

PVC and THHN, posted on September 22, 2016 at 04:50:42
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
I took apart a power cord from a well-regarded manufacturer (not VD) some years ago and found.....you guessed it, as the title suggests, the PC was constructed from three twisted runs of THHN inside of a clear PVC plastic tube with some damping stuff inside the tube. Connectors were common Wattgate like from the hardware store. Amazing part was how many posted about what a great sounding cord it was. This began my descent into skepticism.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 22, 2016 at 08:00:09
calloway
Audiophile

Posts: 729
Joined: February 12, 2000
Alan is 100% correct regarding his post. Rick is no different than a great many other cable makers. I use his cables and have met him and find him very honest and a credit to his craft.Have you tried his current cables...? They are superb, and, as Alan stated,start at a very reasonable price...especially as good as they are. So.."What is your point'..?

 

Maybe indirectly ... (nt), posted on September 22, 2016 at 08:06:18
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001

 

Seriously?, posted on September 22, 2016 at 10:12:28
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
I described MY experience with Rick over many, many years. I'm "pushing" nothing. Take it or leave it.

It sounds like you have your own agenda.

 

RE: PVC and THHN, posted on September 22, 2016 at 10:20:54
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
Hey, Mitch....that cable could have sounded good to those ears. That's their experience, regardless of the inexpensive materials.

There is another long-time cable maker (I shall not say in public, much to the consternation of many here) that used THHN, weaving it in a particular way, for many many years. A lot of people bought a slew of those cables as well. I was quite surprised when I ran across that very wire at Home Depot so long ago, whilst shopping for 10-gauge Romex. I thought...."how about that".

 

RE: Seriously?, posted on September 22, 2016 at 10:20:56
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
No agenda here. You did not answer Sue's query about Rick being an EE?
There are many, many flakes in this hobby.

 

RE: Seriously?, posted on September 22, 2016 at 10:26:13
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
If you are so concerned whether Rick is an EE, why not contact him directly? It matters not to me whether he is, or is not. And what does Rick being an EE, or not, have to do with my posting, on this forum or others?

I know (and have worked with) quite a few very talented individuals who excel in this hobby (and business), that don't have the vaunted EE degree. They are no less qualified to do what they do, since they follow Ohm's Law, natural law, physics, and are quite adept with a multimeter and O'scope. Some of them are brilliant, and I'm fortunate to know them.

 

I bet your cables are particularly transparent... In fact at times they 'just disappear' nt, posted on September 22, 2016 at 19:30:51
.

 

Got to know the business end of the stick, posted on September 22, 2016 at 20:13:16
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
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Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 1999
What the parts cost, and what the product sells for often bear no relationship to one another.

It is not at all uncommon for appliances, clothes or other consumer products to sell for ten times or more what the materials cost.
These are mainstream consumer goods, manufactured in quantity and with every cost reduction benefit known to man and machine.

See:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/34038.html

Given the manufacturing methods of the high-end, $15 worth of parts can easily turn into a $300 retail price. This would be with what are considered "normal" profits for a manufacturer, nothing out of the ordinary at all.

What my referenced post and comments above refer to, are typical industry mark-ups of 50% to 100% throughout the product distribution chain.

Tell me, why should anyone manufacturing an audio product take LESS profit margin than someone else making blue jeans or refrigerators?


Jon Risch

 

RE: PVC and THHN, posted on September 23, 2016 at 01:15:53
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
What is THHN?

 

RE: PVC and THHN, posted on September 23, 2016 at 05:02:38
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
Thermoplastic High Heat-resistant Nylon-coated
Common wire used for AC electrical wiring purposes because of the properties of the insulation.
The stuff you can buy by the roll at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
Most likely not "audiophile approved"

 

Agree..., posted on September 23, 2016 at 07:31:42
Vinyl Valet
Audiophile

Posts: 1342
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Joined: November 13, 2003
After working as an engineer for 26 years in the design and test of large scale integrated circuits for implantable medical devices, the two most brilliant and creative electrical engineers I have encountered did not have electrical engineering degrees.

Claiming you are a EE, does not necessary mean you have that degree. It can simply mean that you function as an electrical engineer. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

I rose to the highest engineering level at my company. My degrees are AT (associate degree in technology; i.e. TV, stereo repair) and an EET (electronic engineering technology) from ASU. When folks ask me what I did for a living I tell them I was an electrical engineer because that's what I did and did very well for 26 years before retiring.

One of the reasons I did so well is because I didn't get an electrical engineering degree. Roger Skoff wrote a great article somewhere explaining that an EE degree is the basically the same now as it was about 100 years ago; training to be a telephone engineer. I shot past many of the EEs in my company, many whom are still working. I believe one reason is that my degrees were more appropriate to modern technology. Another reason was that I am fully functional in a lab. Many EEs have to rely on their technicians for that.
Open up your mind, in pours the trash. - Meat Puppets, 1987

 

RE: Got to know the business end of the stick, posted on September 23, 2016 at 08:15:31
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
I have assembled power cords from THNN and any number of other wire topologies. For the most part each cord contributed it own sound to the audio presentation. As a hobbyist, I have enjoyed the experimentation with differing power cable topologies and the resultant sound. Cost was the last thing I considered as to what sounded good or bad in my system.

It has been better than a decade ago since I last performed these experiments. I tried shielded and unshielded, Teflon clad, individual copper shielding for each conductor, etcetera, etcetera.

Overall, I found that I shared Jon Risch's preference for Teflon clad wire. I prefer copper over silver or silver plated copper. Over time I just narrowed my choice for power cables to the Belden topologies recommended by Jon Risch. In most instances I have used various plugs on each end suggested by Duster or Jon.

I have not taken the time to listen to the various plugs on power cables. I am quite satisfied with Pass & Seymour plugs for terminating my cables. The P&S plugs sold at big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes are quite often "contractor grade." That is, some corners have been cut on the big box offerings. Purchasing parts from electric supply houses, in my experience, are more expensive and of higher quality than the big box offerings.

I am fascinated by those that post here about the cost of components. One setting the price of something may or may not denote quality. Those that place cost of an item over all else, to me, is why this is an Asylum. I am more interested in listening to performances, rather than beating my chest about the cost a component.

Trumpeter, Clifford Brown, was told to buy a trumpet and he came back with a student horn. When questioned why he didn't purchase a more expensive horn, he responded, "it's not the horn that makes the music -its me."

There is an old adage: It not the wand that makes the magic - its the magician!

Caveat emptor. YMMV

DaveT

 

I believe I took apart the same pc! n/t, posted on September 23, 2016 at 19:11:26
tweakmenow
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: East Coast USA
Joined: March 26, 2012
.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on September 24, 2016 at 06:31:28
FRO
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 76
Joined: March 8, 2001
I have all High Fidelity cables in system.
They are the best I have heard!!
As with all cables sold, Retail Price is just a reference and no one actually pays.

 

+1 good post (NT), posted on September 24, 2016 at 07:13:57
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
.

 

price and value.. Two different things.., posted on September 24, 2016 at 12:21:46
It is true some cheap stuff can be great.
My issue is charging a lot extra.. for what? Maybe "god designed it"?
Some audiophile manfacturers/sellers think they can automatically charge more. just because.
Others just price the item at what is a fair profit.

So some guy finds 10,000 ft of silver wire at $0.20 a foot. makes up some wires and thinks 'silver IC cost a LOT'. so 'naturally' he asks $900 a pop for stuff which cost him twenty minutes and $20 to make.
Where some other guy, same deal, sells his cable for $90.
(the original Western Union wire was this sort of situation)
Why should anyone praise the dude selling them for $900. He is IMO a moral crook. Cheating anyone who cannot figure it all out. No one forced anyone to buy them? SO why IS he a crook???

On the other hand some proprietary things may (or may not) be 'worth' the extra. Bybee gizmos.. They cost little, and the parts are cheap parts.. But the product is based on the 'idea'. SO he charges a lot.
Anyone could make them for the small amount it takes to build them. Yet the Bybee still sell.

Like Shakte sticks. A few bucks of wood. Sells for $800.
So is it a fair price?
To each their own figuring that out.

Particularly in cables, it is very hard to have any idea what the actual value is..
Go only by the ear?
Take into account the maker? Brand's general quality and appeal?
I tend to buy ONLY stuff like Cardas or Kimber since they have the track record..
(The only reason I bought Pangea powercords was they cost LESS than I could have made myself!)

Anyway, it irks me that no small makers of any sort of Audiophile cables can be "TRUSTED" to sell cables at a fair market value. I guess I am just no willing to trust folks 'At their word'. Other are.

I am perhaps too cynical. But maybe I just refuse to buy the 'pig in a poke'?

 

RE: price and value.. Two different things.., posted on September 24, 2016 at 13:55:59
How can you be too cynical in reference to god designed $12-20K cable. Especially if someone actually bought them.

 

Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on September 24, 2016 at 14:29:00
...and only charges half as much :-)

 

Wow... I am jealous... nt, posted on September 24, 2016 at 15:53:32
.

 

RE: Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on September 24, 2016 at 19:24:43
Ok Sue, you win. Spock trumps Casper. Well, that's if the dilithium was mined on Rigel XII?? That's the good stuff. T456

 

RE: price and value.. Two different things.., posted on September 25, 2016 at 06:39:59
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
SmellySsocks,

I think I get your point. You have a set of internal values whether; it be brand name or material cost; that inspires you to make a purchase. You are entitled to your values, but to belittle someone for exercising a choice contrary to "your internal" values is comes off as rather pious.

I agree with you regarding what I view as snake oil. However, I don't tend to lambast those that do not share my "internal" values. Seldom, if ever, do I purchase components on brand name alone. The only exception I make is in TVs, I compare everything to the picture of a Sony, but I digress.

After reading your response, I thought about the time and effort I put into building one of my experimental power cords. I started with THNN cable. I stripped the insulation off and then wrapped each cable in two layers of Teflon plumbers tape. I stripped the copper sheathing off a Belden coax cable. The Teflon clad THNN was then inserted into the stripped copper sheathing. This sheathed cable was wrapped with another layer of Teflon tape. I then braided 3 of these assemblies together and held the braid together with a few plastic zip ties. I terminated this braided cable assembly with a Hubbell male plug on one end female spade connectors on the other end.

Now, material cost at the time was probably $25. The bulk of that cost would be in the Hubbell plug. My employer at the time charged clients $225 an hour for my time. I estimate it took me maybe 16-hours of labor to complete the cable. So, if I had been in the business to sell this cable my employer would have marketed the cable for $4,000 dollars per cable. The extra $400 would be for research, inspiration, material gathering, and marketing.

So, I would presume you would say the above cable was a rip off because $25 worth of parts would be selling for $4,000. Take into account my employer would have to provide another employee to replace me at $3,600 while I assembled cables. The intangibles of research, inspiration, perspiration, material gathering, and marketing are not reflected in the $25 cost of materials.

Most likely you would poo-poo the above cable based on cost of material and my lack of brand name recognition. However, if my employer at the time (a major defense contractor) marketed the cable it probably would be applauded by the audio press as a testament to viability of hi-end audio, because the defense/space industry had ventured into the market bringing there eons of years of .....expertise.

There may well be any number of persons who would buy the cable and praise it to the heavens just because of brand name. Marketing wise phrases like: materials developed for the space race (Teflon); based on experience copper that has been extruded for the demands of outer space; etc.

So, if the name was Davet's Diamond Dynamic cable be a rip-off? Or if cable developed for the most rigorous demands of space and the defense industry sold by the likes of General Dynamics, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, or Raytheon make it worth price?

I built the above cable as a labor of love for this hobby with no thoughts of renumeration. My internal value is based on how it sounds. I don't know Ric nor have a used or heard his power cord. There seems to be room enough for Rics or Davets in this hobby. I, personally, don't equate price with quality in all instances.

I am curious what you assessment of the above?

DaveT

 

Thank you for this...., posted on September 25, 2016 at 07:22:42
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
LABOR. No one else spoke about this. Far too many naysayers and DIY gents only mention parts costs (or what they believe them to be), NEVER mentioning the labor, i.e. time that goes into building a given product.

And that labor can be all over the map, as many steps are unseen. While $225 per hour billable is quite high in audio circles, I don't doubt that's the case for aerospace. We could certainly agree that $25 to $50 is customary in the audio repair business. Using that as a model, your cable would require $400-$500 in labor alone....and that's at COST, without any reasonable markup for a distributor or dealer.

Thank you again for a thought-provoking and cogent post.

 

Hobby work vs a functional system to deliver a good., posted on September 25, 2016 at 10:49:20
When you are taking a wire, stripping off insulation then hand re wrapping it, That is not a business model of work. That is a hobby based fooling around.

IF someone thinks they should be paid for such stuff.. I guess if they make it clear what they are doing. (If you asked ME to pay for you stripping THNN then hand wrapping it in teflon tape? I would say your work is ridiculous, dangerous and totally unsafe, Since the voltage rating of the Teflon tape is not given, nor is just wrapping with it safe practice. I would have 'expected' you to actually BUY Teflon coated wire with proper voltage ratings to make a product to 'sell'. Since your hand wrapped wire is most likely no legal for sale as intended use is to carry 120V current.) stuff like that is the problem... And thinking you CAN sell it is also a problem!

In the original case the problem is the person under discussion does not say how of under what conditions he make his product.
What is actually IN his $13,000 or $20,000 cable?
Well, an issue is his own way of saying why his stuff is worth...
"God designed' and the EE claim when he has no such degree.
Both explained away by apologists.. But still left as nagging anyone wanting to have an honest playing field.

Maybe he is also stripping wire and re wrapping it, doing things which make the product unsafe and unfit for commercial sale?

I do not know. No one knows. I guess saying God designed it and making EE claims is supposed to make it all right?
On the other hand yes he can sell his toys, but some of us think folks should have a heads up. And this whole set of posts is to just allow folks to think about what sort of crazy stuff they may be buying.

You can make anything you want for your own use. When you start selling it for $13,000 or $20,000.. Some folks may ask questions, or make comments. Particularly when past issues show up.

 

EXCELLENT post SS!!! Rational, reasonable and TRUE!!!... N/T, posted on September 25, 2016 at 11:10:24
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31815
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2004
qq
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Hobby work vs a functional system to deliver a good., posted on September 25, 2016 at 20:19:49
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 1999
I don't know if you bothered to read the referenced post, so just in case you (and/or others) didn't, I am copying it down below.

The reason I suspect you didn't, is because you continue to rail on about labor as if it were free. As I noted in my referenced post, and as DaveT noted, labor is not cheap, and skilled labor to do proper soldering and mechanical assembly is even more costly than general purpose labor.

You also talk about wrapping teflon tape as if it were some sort of hazard, except that in the example DaveT gave, he was wrapping what were already 600V rated wires, with ADDITIONAL insulation. It would not suddenly degrade to less than 600V, so I don't know where you were going with that comment, other than some sort of general negativity to high end cottage industry practices.

Finally, one thing I seldom see mentioned, is the cost to get Safety Agency listing or approvals for an AC power cord. This runs on the order of $5000 to $8000 for UL, and multiple samples must be submitted to the agency.

If you only manage to sell a hundred cables over a period of a year or so, your cost for the UL portion is now a significant amount per cable.
It is also an amount that has to be paid "upfront", not on a running basis as you make cables to order.

Jon Risch


COPY OF REFERENCED POST
***************************************************************
Re: Why are cables sooo expensive???

Cables costs can be higher than you think.

Lets take a look at a well known DIY coaxial cable, Belden 89259.

It currently costs around $1 a foot (now up to around $1.80 a foot, so increase all following costs appropriately)), and this is a stock item for the manufacturer that they make in quantity when they manufacture it. The cost here is mostly due to the teflon insulation material and teflon jacket. If you wanted a custom run of it, say changing just one thing that did not cost any more for Belden to make, then it might cost $3 or 4 a foot, and you would have to commit to a minimum quantity buy of say, 50,000 feet. This uses a good grade of ETP copper, not 99.999% pure, or some umpteen nines purity silver.

Let's say that you wanted OFHC 99.99% copper, this might jack the price up to almost double what it was as a custom cable, now in the range of $5-7 dollars a running foot.

Not so bad you might think, as you only use about 3 feet per side in a 1M stereo interconnect cable for a total of say approx. 7 feet of cable. So only $35-49 worth of cable in the product. Ah, but then there is now the cost of the RCA plugs, these can run up into the range of $10-20 apiece wholesale for the really fancy ones milled from solid material and quality plated and finished.

Then there is the HS, maybe some Techflex covering, silver solder, etc. Then the most expensive thing of all: hand labor to assemble them, as there is no way to afford machine termination for custom cable sizes AND off the beaten path RCA plugs for the smaller companies. In many cases, the simple act of soldering them up PROPERLY costs as much as the materials. So $100 worth of raw materials may cost another $50 to $100 OR MORE to assemble and test/check.

Then there is the packaging, advertising, distribution, overhead, and so on.

In the electronics industry, the usual rule of thumb is to multiply the parts cost by 5X to reach what the retail price should be. This is for mass market consumer gear. High end gear, due to the limited production (loss of large scale production efficiency), tends to run around 10X the parts cost in order to assure making some amount of profit from selling the gear. (It needs to be kept in mind that many items typically get sold for 10X their cost to manufacture: clothes, many toys, many appliances, etc.)

For the above mentioned example interconnect cables, this would amount to a reasonably fair selling price of nearly $1000 for a 1M pair of what amounted to a simple variation on good old Belden 89259 (using OFHC 99.99% pure copper). This is for a simple coaxial geometry, if the cables used a fancy geometry, or required even more labor to assemble, or used pure silver as the conductor, then the costs and final retail price would be even higher.

Now, once we get past this point, we are starting to enter the realm of what the market will bear, what the consumer thinks the product is worth, and is willing to pay for it. Whether it is due to brand name prestige, or some other marketing ploy, if consumers are willing to fork over the cash, then they will make it and sell it. This is NOT unique to the cable or audio industry, just pounced upon by some who like to see it as some sort of conspiracy or such.

As for these particular MIT speaker cables, I am not immediately familiar with the details of their construction, but if they use the typical MIT network box, then these parts costs and assembly time can be added to the equation, and likely the cable costs would be higher still for significant amounts of copper in the cable (speaker cable vs. interconnect cables).

For a ten foot pair of not very fancy high end speaker cables, the costs to manufacture might easily reach $200 or more, if the 10X rule of thumb is used, then the retail price would be somewhere on the order of $2000 or more. How much more might depend in part on the actual materials and labor involved.
The difference between $2000 and $3400 might be partially due to particularly expensive materials and construction, or a portion of it a result of what the market will bear. Use of pure silver alone would pretty much make up for the difference.

More ambitious cables, such as some of the woven/braided types that interleave the wires in a helical criss-crossing winding around a core can involve tremendous amounts of labor, very costly materials, and so on, so that actual costs to manufacture would stagger your mind. Again, with very limited production, no economy of scale, these are one off hand-built products, and they need to recoup their expenses every time they sell a set.

A fully hand built custom car can easily cost 10 to 100 times what most cars sell for. Should everyone run out and buy one? Many folks are quite happy with their mass produced Chevy's and Fords, so I don't see the custom car business putting them into any trouble anytime soon. Same with the really high priced cables, they are there and exist for the same kinds of reasons as custom cars, etc. Someone knows how to build them ever so tweaky to the nth degree, and then offers them for sale.


Jon Risch

 

Bravo, Jon...., posted on September 25, 2016 at 21:44:01
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
Great points about Teflon tape. From memory, some of it is rated to 400V along with a very high heat rating. I took a look at my stash, and a couple of rolls are even marked "mil-spec"....and that's ordinary, Home Depot or Ace Hardware-bought tape. In other words, it's inherently safe.

because you continue to rail on about labor as if it were free

And a special thank you for saying this. Such an attitude is far too prevalent, and I've seen it for decades. Yes, perhaps there are abuses within the industry/hobby re: pricing, but very small economy of scale is something also not taken into consideration. While I build a modest amount of labor into my products, to be fair to my effort, I certainly am not going to work for 50 cents an hour. I am thankful many appreciate that effort, but understand there will always be those who don't.

 

RE: Hobby work vs a functional system to deliver a good., posted on September 26, 2016 at 08:29:49
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
First, I only cited my homebuilt cable as an example, and not as a real world example. However, I do have the electrical background to embark upon such a quest. The defense contractor I was working for at the time could easily have taken my idea, and mass produced the cable in its entirety without human intervention from source to packaging. To have custom automation machines made would be no problem. The R&D money of these companies and development of products rival the GDP of many countries.

These companies have the resources to have Belden and any number of other wire manufacturers build cable to their specifications at the same time. Reels of unused cable were often tossed to make room. Although, the company would via economies of scale manufacture the cables at a fraction of the cost of my example. But I can insure you that they would not discount the product one penny, and if anything they probably would use Jon's multiple of 10-times. Where I worked in the company the prevailing multiple was 7-times. Once the R&D and startup cost were recovered the price of the product dropped. Once the initial cost were recovered, from the company's perspective every penny, thereafter, was 100% profit. So they could position the product's cost to meet or undercut the competition.

SS, I could have easily and affordably opted for pre-clad Teflon wire, but for me that was not the fun. I did not undertake the project with the intent of manufacture. If I had - my approach would have been much different. You attributed intent to my example and then went on to make what I took to be a personal attack as to the folly of my experiment.

You stated you had a problem with Rick, his company, products, and his marketing statements. Again, I agree with you, that I feel there are many products that are ridiculously priced and the marketing hype is so much hot air. I don't bellyache all over the net because I think some products and the hype are crap.

On the other hand ,if you are forewarning us of possible safety concerns (as you did with my example) then I applaud you. Ranting for the sake of ranting is your right, but dismissing other factors that are involved (as a few of us here have done regarding labor, R&D) is not fair. I am not attacking you. If anything I was augmenting your argument. I just don't understand your concerns UNLESS it is specifically about Rick.

As I read your post, I, initially, read that you were saying the product was over priced based on the value of the components (period). If it is personal - count me out! I don't know you or Rick and I have no desire to intervene in a personal pissing contest.

DaveT

 

You are most graciously welcome, posted on September 26, 2016 at 08:44:43
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
I like to think I shed some light in my corner of the asylum. There are a lot of loonies here - that's why it is called an asylum. In my corner I just feel some of the constraints of the real world need to be observed - gravity, light, dark, hot, and cold. Screaming at the dark is just one of the attributes of the asylum.

Labor, R&D, initial concept, manufacturing, marketing, distribution are just some of the functions of the real world beyond the confines of the asylum. All too often more of the sense of sight is addressed than the beauty of sound. Post regarding visuals such as: price tags, topologies, component composites, specifications, etc. There are a number of august contributors who try to describe the aural impacts that various things have on the sound.

"Things are not always as they appear!"

DaveT

 

RE: Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on September 26, 2016 at 17:48:19
bcowen
Audiophile

Posts: 1076
Location: North Carolina
Joined: December 19, 2015
Charging more would be illogical.

:)

 

Rick Schultz cables and Ric Schultz cables, posted on September 27, 2016 at 22:29:53
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
I wonder if Rick Schultz cables are better than Ric Schultz cables. Actually does Ric Schultz make cables?

 

RE: Got to know the business end of the stick, posted on September 29, 2016 at 12:42:34
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Sure there exists a relationship between parts, cost and retail?
Additionally, it is very helpful for a designer or manufacturer to disclose the hour(s) of workmanship that goes into a completed piece of gear and / or cabling.

 

RE: Got to know the business end of the stick, posted on September 29, 2016 at 13:15:17
Bet those $20,000 cables take a real long time to make. Months probably.

 

RE: Got to know the business end of the stick, posted on October 1, 2016 at 14:41:25
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
No problem- so long as all of the details are disclosed. This includes country of manufacture- since many are guilty of junk-sourcing to china.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 7, 2016 at 13:39:16
agisthos
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: September 14, 2011
Rick Schultz has never, ever claimed to be an EE. Those who keep repeating this false statement, then attacking Rick for making this non existent claim, are engaging in dishonesty.

Rick is a Christian, who gets his inspiration and light bulb moments after praying. This is very different to him claiming God designed the cables, something he has never said to me. Again, this is just a slur by the OP, designed to make him look foolish.

What this is really all about, is some people unhappy at the price of his topline cables. Yes they are very expensive, but the entry level lines are reasonable as far as high end cables go.

The entry High Fidelity line performs better than almost any cable on the market. The new designs have nothing in common with the Virtual Dynamics stuff apparently.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 7, 2016 at 20:00:33
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Thanks- for the clarification- agisthos.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 8, 2016 at 01:47:23
It was the owner of AVShowrooms who posted on his own forum that Rick was in fact an EE. When I questioned the information I was ultimately told I was off topic and left.

Rick himself told me that God spoke to him in the shower one day and told him how to design his cables. Because Rick had sent me cables for possible review, I didn't think the information was private or confidential.

Let Rick himself come to AA to tell me this information is not true.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 8, 2016 at 06:18:13
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
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Nice follow-up, Sue.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 8, 2016 at 09:02:11
agisthos
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: September 14, 2011
Rick is an inventor, has multiple patents under his name, so perhaps the AVshowrooms guy has gotten this confused with being an EE.

In any event, you are basically saying 'I will continue to slur him unless he comes here and tells ME otherwise'. Get over yourself.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 8, 2016 at 09:43:00
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
Regardless of what you were told, how you were told or who told you, the OP was inappropriate coming from a reviewer. And I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it seems out of characteristics as well.

 

I actually agree with you, posted on October 8, 2016 at 11:15:45
I should not have started this thread and I plan to call Rick next week to apologies if I have cause him any grief.

While I have not said anything that is untrue, it would have been best not to say anything at all.

 

RE: I actually agree with you, posted on October 8, 2016 at 14:16:17
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
Hey, Sue,

Yeah, understand. I can't count the many times I've started things I shouldn't have.:-) It's all good. I'm sure Rick will appreciate your call and I again will look forward to your reviews. As a Bowers and Wilkins fan I especially liked the CM10 S2 review you did.

Hope you have a good weekend.

Best regards,

Scott

 

RE: I actually agree with you, posted on October 10, 2016 at 00:41:18
I for one think that pointing out insanity and extreme greed IS the right thing to do. 12-20K for an interconnect designed by god? Like really, does that pass the smell test? Ha? Not even you know who pulls this crap. Please don't apologize unless you maybe didn't pick up that he was just pulling your leg. If what you are saying is true and he wasn't kidding then you are rightfully warning people to avoid someone who is psychotic. Oh yeah, all this is in my humble opinion. Of course it is possible that he was talking to the man upstairs , right? Tweaker's got your back on this one. T456

 

RE: I actually agree with you, posted on October 11, 2016 at 11:51:52
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
By all means, keep reviewing- Sue.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 23, 2016 at 09:39:58
groovy.guru
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Location: Poway, CA
Joined: September 16, 2004
I'm late to the party with this thread, but I want to post my personal anecdote with respect to my dealings with Rick.

About 1 year after Virtual Dynamics shut down, I contacted Rick because one of my Master LE cables was creating a loud buzz through my speakers. I had bent it more than I should, apparently. He agreed to honor the lifetime warranty and repaired it for free, although VD was no longer in business. He also shipped it back to me for free from Canada, where he was still living at the time. In my case, he treated me with the highest degree of honesty and integrity.

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 23, 2016 at 21:00:43
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
Sounds like Rick Schultz is an ok guy and can make ok cables, also!

 

RE: Rick Schultz, former ownwe of Virtual Dynamics, posted on October 26, 2016 at 12:54:11
jhrlrd
Audiophile

Posts: 135
Joined: October 21, 2014
Didn't read every single post in this thread, so pardon me if it's been
said, but:
If the cable beats most others out there, and many believe the HFCs do, then what's that worth? even if it costs 50 buck to make, he's justified to charge appropriately. The kilo-buck price tag will definitely hurt sales, but that's for him to decide.

 

RE: Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on November 29, 2016 at 21:07:25
As it turns out, dilithium may be the best tweak of all. Less violence where there is more of it in the drinking water and it looks like it can slow and protect against Alzheimer's... It might be the best neuroprotective agent known. Very easy to get and use in microdose. Don't even need a spaceship. Tweaker

 

RE: Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on November 29, 2016 at 23:38:41
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
have you been using dilithium in your drinking water?

 

RE: Spock designs my cables using dilithium crystals, posted on November 30, 2016 at 05:48:07
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Laughing...

 

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