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home depot thermostat wire

70.24.105.33
Posted on June 29, 2016 at 08:36:59
BRab
Audiophile

Posts: 962
Joined: January 28, 2002
 I've been using the above, 2 lead 18 gauge solid core, and thought it an improvement over my previous Silversonic cables. Recently I changed to 4 lead thermostat wire, two leads positive, and two negative, and the improvement in detail, presence, etc. was remarkable. Does that mean that the earlier two lead stuff was starving the speakers? I would have thought that 18 gauge solid core would be sufficient for my easy load Spendors. Or does it mean that non audiophile grade copper has an effect and if so should I expect even better performance from proper, dedicated speaker wire? Very confused!

 

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RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on June 29, 2016 at 11:38:53
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002

Since you are now using a 4-conductor cable, the wires should be cross-connected (star quad), if so, the inductance has been lowered with better noise rejection vs. a 2-conductor 18 AWG twisted pair, and the cable cross section has been doubled to 15 AWG aggregate gauge, which is still a moderate gauge cable for a speaker cable application. Based on my experience of a similar solid core copper hardware store product, you can certainly find higher performance via entry-level audiophile speaker cables such as AudioQuest solid core speaker cable products, but what you currently have is a better option than typical stranded zip cord speaker wire, IME.

Make sure the conductors with the same polarity are opposed to each other within the cable bundle (cross-connected) rather than side-by-side (see image above of a stranded conductor star quad cable wired cross-connected).

 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on June 29, 2016 at 20:51:00
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3157
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 Weren't your Silversonics a dedicated speaker wire? We're they stranded? Is it dedicated solid core speakerwire you are wondering about?

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on June 30, 2016 at 06:17:54
BRab
Audiophile

Posts: 962
Joined: January 28, 2002
 The Silversonics were stranded so I'm fairly sure in my setup that solid core works better. What I'm surprised at is the magnitude of improvement going from 18 gauge to 2X18 gauge and the implication that cables matter!

 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on June 30, 2016 at 16:27:23
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3157
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 If you search the forum for posts authored by Tweaker or Duster you'll come across some excellent discussions on solid core wire.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on July 1, 2016 at 08:32:31
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 A sixteen gauge power cord works but most times a larger works much better even on gear that draws less than an amp.

You didn't say the length of each run which plays a role but 18 gauge is too light for good power or any distance. Dusters post has lots of good info too.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on July 1, 2016 at 16:39:29
BRab
Audiophile

Posts: 962
Joined: January 28, 2002
 Thanks for the useful information. I'm curious why the similar Audioquest product improves on the hardware store product.
An additional question. The wire I'm using has 5 leads. I only used 4 but I'm wondering if there's any advantage to using the 5th. If so, should I add it to the positive or negative side? Thanks.

 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on July 1, 2016 at 21:49:25
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Most notable is the purity of the conductor, how it's annealed, the design of the dielectric (insulation), and how a particular cable geometry is better optimized for audio applications, with understanding of LCR, cable resonance control, and RFI/EMI noise rejection/suppression issues. Designing products that simply sound better from a sophisticated perspective (delivers audiophile listening cues) is a primary goal.

Cables intended for audiophile use tend to sound better than hardware store wire which simply passes safe voltage and amperage ratings. Audio cable applications tend to be very sensitive to various subjective issues, which makes the audiophile quest so fascinating if you're not too afraid of slipping down the rabbit hole. It's a great hobby if you appreciate listening to good audio playback.

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: home depot thermostat wire, posted on July 6, 2016 at 20:57:20
Tweaker456
 Feel free to read my previous posts in this forum on how IMHO thicker wire is better , music has more body to it. So yes thin wire is starving the speakers, VERY well put. Actually I would say EXTREMLY well put. SUPER EXTREMLY well put. SUPERCALIFRAGALISTALLY well put. In experimenting with interconnects using ordinary magnet wire vs very high quality OFC copper wire of the same gauge the ordinary wire was warmer and had a fuller sounding bass. Smoothness, detail and sound stage are better with the OFC. Good questions. Of course all this is just my opinion, one which has been observed by millions and millions of other folks who have ears, about the thick vs thin thing, or adding more strands. Tweaker

 

EXPIALADOSUSHLY PUT!, posted on July 6, 2016 at 21:39:59
Tweaker456
 Did I spell that rite anyone?

 

RE: EXPIALADOSUSHLY PUT!, posted on July 7, 2016 at 01:56:24
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 One letter wrong :

SUPERCALIFRAGALISTALLY

should be :

SUPERCALIFREGALISTALLY

Anyway, to the topic at hand which I am sure has almost been discussed to death, I would not use 18 usually. Generally I am top dog at a shop but an ex-boss taught me a lesson about that. I had a nice bench setup, a patch bay the brought out the speaker wires from the bench am and used A & B speaker terminals robbed off a totally fried amp so I could test amps or speakers, I also had the whole thing wired, the tape monitor as well as phono inputs.

We were arguing this exact point, and by that I don't mean yelling or any of that, but I said it shouldn't make much difference. He hands me a bag with some cheap speaker wire, maybe is was 18 and said to strip the ends and insert it where my usual short jumpers were from the amp to the speakers. Now mind you these were not the greatest speakers in the world but I did hear quite a difference. I believe it was a 50 foot package.

But then since you got two of them that is 100 feet.

The resistances of different wire gauges is shown at :

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/wirega.html

Let's just say the wires were 50 feet, mainly because some people like me avoid cutting wires because the system might get moved in the future so it is folded up somewhere. That means 100 feet. It shows 18 as being 6.385 ohms per 1,000 feet so that means you are looking at 0.6385 ohms.

If your amplifier has a damping factor of 100, that means its output impedance is 0.08 ohms. Also bear in mind that a speakers impedance varies and can go down to very much below 8 ohms. My old Boston Acoustics had woofers with a 3.2 ohm DC resistance. Sealed system (A-150) and rated response down to 20 Hz. They called that 8 ohms but obviously it wasn't.

The only speakers that could possibly have a flat impedance curve, mmm now that I think of - none. Even planars or ESLs won't, though the ESLs will more likely be mainly capacitive.

So at 0.6385 ohms, that damping factor is reduced to about 12. That adds to the DC resistance of the woofer coil and lets it loose so to speak. It also impresses the impedance curve on the frequency response inversely. These things are rated by voltage folks, flat response within 0.5 dB is gone.

It is a different story with tube amps, most of which have much lower damping factors. I think people who like tube sound better actually like that looseness which, in a way it could be said it lets the speaker sound come out.

I am currently using 14, but on a very short run. I got a clunker Pioneer BFC SA-1270 with a fairly low damping factor and a Phase Linear with a damping factor of 1,000, the highest I have ever seen. I can definitely hear a difference and my ears aren't all that great. Most of the hearing loss in in the high range but I can still hear the bass quite well. And distortion, I cannot stand distortion. Not in integrated program material, on an electric guitar fine but I want the rest of it clean. Neither amp has a problem with that but I thought I would mention it.

But the difference in sound is there and I can hear it. And they design solid state amps to have a fairly high damping factor. And it does not require a ridiculous amount of feedback. It doesn't even require high bias, the Phase Linear outputs are class B, the drivers actually do the work up to maybe a half watt or so. Now they are biased kinda hard.

If anyone really wants to amplify the difference, set your stuff up with short speaker wires and get some power resistors, non-inductive. Cut a wire and put a 1 ohm i series with it, you will hear a difference. That lowers the damping factor to 8. then take an 8 ohm and do the same, that will lower your damping factor to 1. You will REALLY hear it then.

And that's the difference.

And, I am no slouch at technology and I think you should use solid wire for speakers. Like 14 or even 12 gauge Romex. Stranded wire was invented for one thing - to be able to be flexed repeatedly and not fatigue and break. These gold plated fine welding wire cable wound by silkworms in a secret laboratory in Antarctica are not necessary. In fact welding cable was developed because they know it was gong to be moved around all the time. There are only so many places in a given room that are sonically right for your speakers. Once you find it they usually stay put.

Another thing is most Romex now has a third conductor fro ground, if you are running a bridged amp you can connect the ground wire to chassis or Earth ground. It should not affect the capacitance but should reduce the radiation. If it is running right near your turntable it might make a bit of difference. I am not saying much, but we ARE splitting hairs here.

 

RE: EXPIALADOSUSHLY PUT!, posted on July 7, 2016 at 03:40:27
Tweaker456
 Magnet wire is THE way to go for these inexpensive alternatives. Very little dielectric compared to romex... Also thicker wire will sound better than thinner wire, up to a point even on short runs, not considering all the damping factor stuff. Of course, everyone out there, this is just my very humble opinion. Supercalifragilistically humble. Tweaker

 

RE: EXPIALADOSUSHLY PUT!, posted on July 8, 2016 at 09:10:32
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 When I worked at an electrical contractor years ago I had spools of solid core wire of all gauge sizes. I made up a bunch of speaker wires ranging from 10 to 24 gauge. The thinner I got the better the sound. Also bass actually got more defined and went as deep with the thin cable. I have over the years found no correlation between sound and wire thickness. None
Alan

 

negative correlation, posted on July 12, 2016 at 12:29:22
BRab
Audiophile

Posts: 962
Joined: January 28, 2002
 Yes you did, according to your post. You found that as thickness decreases, sq increases. That's called a negative correlation.

 

RE: negative correlation, posted on July 12, 2016 at 18:27:37
Tweaker456
 Or contradiction. Or...

 

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