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Cable Demo Trickery?

24.167.222.192
Posted on April 23, 2016 at 11:28:46
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 There has been two days of newsletters from Dr AIX on Nordost using suspect means of demonstrating their power cords.
If true, it gives all cable companies a black eye.

And if you read the posts from Mark's fans, they are all pretty much anti cable. I wrote a reply, don't know if he will post it. Below is what I wrote. Maybe not elegantly stated, but I felt my experiences needed to be shared. Below is my post.
___

While I don't think really expensive power cords are necessary, power cords can have an effect on sound. It may be the design, or gauge, or noise on the line, I can't answer that. Instead of looking at it as the last three feet, consider it the first three feet. I would hope you agree that having your system on a dedicated breaker, running something like 10 or 12 gauge from the box, using a quality outlet will give you cleaner power.

I personally have never been too concerned about power cords, years ago, I built some diy cables and recently bought some Pangea cords from Audio Advisor.

Ok, I have been having some problems with the transformer in my amp, audibly buzzing. I could hear it from my listening chair. I replaced a power cable with one that had a tighter fit. The buzz is intermittent. Well, it came back, and I inserted the cable that came with the amp. Sounded fine. Problem came back and I put in a diy cable. Now I have had no expectations of any change in sound. But to my surprise, bass became muddy and the high end was suppressed. I went to another diy cord, just a run of 14 gauge with a P&S plug and a Marinco IEC, sound was back to being balanced.

Now, I'm not saying you need to spend big dollars on a power cord, what I am saying is they can and do have an effect on sound. For those with highly resolving systems, go build some simple cords, using different wire and geometry of the wiring, consider shielded or not shielded.

I do believe that power cords should be the last step in optimizing your cables. I also believe that every detail matters in a high end system. It is a shame that some companies feel the need to use trickery to prove a point. It gives all cable companies a bad name. I say trust your ears, buy from a dealer or company that will allow returns, and listen. Do it in your own system, use your own reference material. A little common sense, and an open mind is needed to decide whether better/different cables are a value in your system. Not everything can be measured, or can specs always determine sound quality. I believed that in the '70s, when I bought Crown gear based on specs. That system sounded terrible compared to what I have assembled, based on adding listening to the equation. Yes specs matter, but they are only one part of the equation, to enjoyable high end sound.

For those who can afford it, a power re-generator, like PS Audio sells, can take all those miles of crappy wire out of the equation.

Mark, I do agree with you advocating for better recordings, and true high resolution, but the thing is a lot of great music is out there, and as a music lover, I choose to listen to those recordings, even if they don't sound as good as your limited catalog. If you put together a system that only is enjoyable with a few dozen LPs/CDs/files, then you need to work on that system.

 

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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing! (nt), posted on April 23, 2016 at 12:30:45
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 nt


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

I dont see, posted on April 23, 2016 at 14:03:42
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 A company, especially one such as Nordost, taking such a risk. Their reputation seems pretty good over many years. But with humans involved anything is possible. I think only entry level philes would percieve volume change to be a qualitative change. As to the assertion tnat changing only one devices power cord couldnt make a difference thats balony. Ive always bought just one at a time, added it to the system and listened for changes. Also changing anything like cabling at the source level always makes the most noticable difference.

Between speaker cables ,interconnects and power cords I think power cords make the largest difference. All aspects of AC delivery are critical to having a first rate system IMO. Every part of AC delivery must be addressed from outlet and vibratuon damping of it, regeneration with lots of headroom for sources only and parallel filtering, chokes for high current devices that wont affect dynamics. Finally Im a firm believer ALL cables sound better if unshielded.

Ill be interested in seeing if Nordost responds to the accusations. Was it determined if Nordost employee did the demo or a distributor? AC is dirtier than ever and needs lots of help and really shows the benefits.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: I dont see, posted on April 23, 2016 at 15:43:58
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 It's pure hearsay when I read these kind of reports. A key point within the accusation is when the writer says:

"...expensive power cords do not cause an audio system to get louder... if they do anything at all."

High-performance power cords tend to provide much better clarity, tonality/timbrel information, soundstage dimensions/spatial cues vs. 18 AWG stock power cords, which may be misinterpreted as sounding "louder".

As to the statement, "if they do anything at all", the premise of the report is not a credible evaluation. It's a futile example of biased opinion based on sheer ignorance of an actuality. If an opinion maker is unaware of something that is of great value to many end users, how can they refute sonic betterment due to high-performance audiophile power cords.

 

RE: I dont see, posted on April 23, 2016 at 17:14:37
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 I went for the middle ground in my post. I saw biases in what I read so I didnt want to come on too strong but we see things the same. The OP of the thread is of a similar ilk when you read some of his comments about power cords and his implementation of various cords with his gear. Im most sorry that even as a dealer it was about 2002 before I tried upgrading power delivery.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: I dont see, posted on April 23, 2016 at 18:38:30
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I felt the same regret when I discovered the benefit of power line conditioners vs. hardware store variety power strips. I wished I'd been aware of PLCs so many listening hours before then...

 

RE: Could you clarify? , posted on April 23, 2016 at 19:05:50
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 Are you referring to me as the OP, or Waldrep in the article I linked to? Similar ilk? I'm hoping that was meant as a good thing.

With my amp, I had not heard any real differences between the stock cord and the two others. So I was a little surprised at how much different that one diy cord was, compared to the others. I really hadn't been listening with any evaluation in mind, other than a quiet transformer.

If it wasn't clear, I believe and have heard the changes in sound that power cords have on a system. Other than captive cords and the cord to my batter charger/power supply to my phono preamp, I have no stock cords.

 

RE: I dont see, posted on April 24, 2016 at 09:15:11
jad
Audiophile

Posts: 228
Location: OH
Joined: August 23, 2002
 The fact of the matter is that if "high-performance power cords tend to provide much better clarity, tonality/timbrel information, soundstage dimensions/spatial cues" they would tend to make the audio sound less loud at the same volume level as the sound would be more pleasing to the ear which then interprets the sound as less loud. Distortion causes music at the same volume levels to sound louder due to the distortion. This why boom boxes sound loud even though they are only capable of fractions of watts output..they distort which sounds loud and even painful at low levels.

 

I disagree with Mr Waldrep, posted on April 25, 2016 at 06:32:09
johntoste
Audiophile

Posts: 459
Location: New England
Joined: March 20, 2004
 whoever he is.

Here is my bias:

From about '96 to '08 I worked for an audio dealership that sold Nordost cables. I loved them (still do). When they released their first power cable, the El Dorado, I ordered a pair for the shop without even hearing them. You can imagine my disappointment when they proved to be nothing special. I never recommended them to any customer.

Some time passed before I got a call from the Nordost rep who was then on the road and wanted to stop in and show me the new power cords. I was reluctant because of my previous experience and the fact that I was with a couple of customers. I relented and let him stop in.

We swapped in Nordost cords to the cd player, pre-amp and power amp. The numeric volume control on the c-j pre was set the same. First impression: it was louder, unequivocally. Everyone heard it.

I'll reiterate; no agenda, no "trickery", no expectations. The system was definitely louder after inserting the Nordost cables.

 

The fact of the matter...., posted on April 25, 2016 at 21:02:54
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
 (in my not-so-humble opinion) is that if a higher-performance power cable is causing the volume to sound louder, then that particular cable's design is providing (the given equipment's power supply) improved efficiency, and is clearly more sympatico than other designs.

Other parameters (tone, frequency extension, etc. etc.) are different issues, and many times are about personal preference. But a more efficient design is easy to hear. That's been my experience over 27+ years comparing and evaluating power cables.

 

RE: I disagree with Mr Waldrep, posted on April 25, 2016 at 21:54:26
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
 "Louder" seems like no substantial advantage, hey, save some
money and just turn up the volume a notch!.

 

RE: The fact of the matter...., posted on April 25, 2016 at 23:37:30
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Excellent point- Alan.

 

RE: Cable Demo Trickery?, posted on April 25, 2016 at 23:37:55
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing- Jeff Starr.

 

RE: The fact of the matter...., posted on April 26, 2016 at 11:14:06
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Your response brings to mind a perfect example of how two power cords, both featuring the same materials and geometry except for the gauge of the conductors can actually affect how obvious and profound the difference in loudness may seem; again with all things being equal except the gauge of the current carrying conductors:

The 10 AWG Acrolink 7N-P4030 II and 14 AWG Acrolink 7N-P4020III are identical power cord designs except for the fact that the 7N-P4030 II features over twice the cross section of the smaller gauge 7N-P4020III. Other than one being a larger gauge power cord, they are identical.

Anyone can tell the difference when comparing them, since the smaller gauge product presents a notably smaller scale soundstage (but with excellent focus), less forward image projection, leaner tonality, less dynamic drive, and most important to this topic, the sense of how loud the presentation seems via the 10 AWG power cord vs. the 14 AWG power cord, even for use with low-current source components. The difference is undeniably obvious, IME.

 

RE: The fact of the matter...., posted on April 26, 2016 at 12:03:51
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
 And one will interact with a given power supply differently, one being more efficient than the other, even though the materials are identical. In the case of differing designs and differing materials, interacting with differently designed power supplies, the results are not predictable either.

Even though I've been listening to and evaluating cables for over 27 years, the exercise is a crap-shoot. I've certainly had my share of surprises, both great and not-so-great. As you would agree, one's ears are the best tool.

 

I don't think it was trickery..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 06:12:58
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001

Unfortunately, this is kind of a "he-said, he-said" situation. I don't want to seem like I'm accusing the messenger, nor am I defending the demo, but without proof, this is a baseless accusation.

 

RE: I don't think it was trickery..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:43:17
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 I posted the link and my limited experience with power cords, hoping that someone more articulate would post on Waldrep's site.

If you read the comments, most are fans of Waldrep, and drag out the old lines about all the wiring to your house is not special, so why would the last cord matter. Those of us that use power conditioners tend to believe that the power cord does have an effect on sound.

Down near the end of the comments, Waldrep is now referring to cables as snake oil. What gets me is that most people who will buy his music are going to be audiophiles. He is dismissing his customers as being hoodwinked.

As to the demo he refers to, I do find it suspicious that the guy used different tracks. I have been to one audio show and that was in 1999,the Sony demo of SACD was poorly done. I wonder if some doing demos do manipulate them, knowing that all the ambient noise won't allow people to hear the very real differences. At home, in my system I can hear the differences. The thing is that they aren't always for the better. I proved that to myself with two very different diy power cords. The simpilar cord I think a Crump cord sounded better than a more complex design.

Like I said, it would be good if some of our cable guys would post some knowledge over at Waldrep's comment section.

 

RE: I don't think it was trickery..., posted on April 28, 2016 at 04:57:57
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 Well, I guess in the end if the end user is getting a money back guarantee and a reasonable time to audition the product, there shouldn't be any beef.

Getting upset at hearing a difference and assuming shenanigans is just sour grapes.

I would give his article a lot more credence if he said he had taken them home and put them in his own system with no result. But he didn't do that. He just called shenanigans.

Unless I missed something? Did he do his own evaluation? With his ears, not measuring equipment, or at least with both equipment and ears.

 

So, how did the Pangea compare to your diy?? nt., posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:38:56
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1482
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 Nt.

 

RE: I disagree with Mr Waldrep, posted on April 28, 2016 at 20:29:14
navman
Audiophile

Posts: 1264
Location: U.S.A.
Joined: January 26, 2009
 May have seemed louder because background hash was less.
When I have done a cable swap it seems louder but the sound meter reads the same. I think it sounds louder because more detail comes through....but thats just my opinion.


I have built cables and in the end i find Shunyata cables seem to work best in my system.
navman

 

RE: I don't think it was trickery..., posted on April 29, 2016 at 08:43:54
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Yes, you are correct that there is no proof, only a hypothesis. On the other hand, simple physics would indicate that with no change in the input voltage (at the most we are talking about millivolts) there can be no change in the output voltage. An extension cord from Home Depot will not drop any more voltage than a $6k cable.

 

RE: I disagree with Mr Waldrep, posted on April 29, 2016 at 08:49:40
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 "it was louder, unequivocally. Everyone heard it."

Did anyone measure it?

I am much more convinced by measurements than by perceptions. I admit to be being an engineer: unless there is a measured difference (extremely easy to do with a Stereophile test CD and a DVM) it is heresay.

 

RE: Waldrep got a Cease and Desist letter from Nordost's attornys, posted on May 3, 2016 at 17:34:44
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 Post and comments have been removed. See today's post for more anti-cable talk.

Someone in this thread asked if he had tried any cords in his system. Apparently one his Benchmark, said he and other engineers heard no differences. And he saying the Benchmark guy recommends using the stock cord.

Today he asked for a high end cord to test.

Anyway, read it for yourself.

 

RE: So, how did the Pangea compare to your diy?? nt., posted on May 7, 2016 at 12:03:08
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 Hi, sorry it took so long to get back to you. When I started swapping power cords on my amp, it was due to a transformer hum. Before I upgraded my preamp, I didn't hear much difference in power cords. It was subtle enough that I just made sure that I had a quality cord in place.

Audio memory is limited, but as I recall the stock cord and the Pangea did not have anything that stood out. Remember the Pangea was a 14SE Mk 1 [I think that was the name, it was the pre Cardas version.] And it was the 14 gauge designed for front end components. I only used it because it was .6m and the stock cable was also 14g. The Pangea did not have a tight grip, and that was why I replaced it temporarily with the stock cord. I have a bunch of cords I made up many years ago. It was when I put in the one that was a design posted here that involved a spiral ground wire, that I heard muddy bass, a loss of clarity, and a suppressed top end. Out came the other style of diy, a simple cable with P&S plug, Beldon cord, and a Marinco IEC. That sounded more neutral.
I have since moved around some cords and put a 1m of PS Audio 12g Micro cable on the amp.

I also got interested in trying some other cords. I missed out on a Shunyata Venom 3, but I did find a deal on a Venom HC, which I was going to try on the amp, maybe bypassing the PS Audio Duet, going straight into the Acme silver plated outlet. The thing is amp sounds so right with the PS Audio Micro cable, that I am going to try the Venom HC on my preamp first. Moving the Pangea 14SE MkII over to the Oppo. I have the better sounding diy cable on my tuner, but it is a little short, so I had to move the tuner back. The plan is the tuner will get the Camelot Sir Percival, and my transport will get the good diy, and I will remove another diy that is on the transport. I plan on doing one cable at a time.

I was looking at Audio Advisor's ad for their cords with "Cardas copper". I thought all the wire was from Cardas, but from the diagram it looks like it is one wire of many. I am hoping the Shunyata on the preamp will be an improvement, although there is nothing wrong with the sound of the Pangea, I am sure it can bettered. What will be interesting is the comparison of the Camelot vs the Pangea. Supposedly Camelot cables were very popular in Japan, years ago. I will see if that still holds true today.

If I have any worthwhile revelations, I'll post a follow up.

 

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