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Impact of jumpers

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Posted on March 22, 2016 at 09:15:24
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 Hi Guys.

My speakers are biwirable. Testing out a new pair of speaker cables. Presently have the cable connected to the woofer/mid posts. Using jumpers (different brand...lesser quality probably) to the tweeters.

Question is ... How much of the jumpers am I listening to...ie...how much do they contribute to the overall sonic presentation?

I have come across some forumers using jumpers of a different make in hopes of bringing SQ up to another level...I am intrigued by that...:) Or would using same cables for jumpers more often yield a better result and be less problematic? What problems with SQ could arise from using jumpers of a different make? I have priced out these 2 options and they would cost about the same.

 

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RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 22, 2016 at 10:59:11
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004
 I've always connected my biwireable speakers as Tannoy and Stuart Marcus of Vampire Wire fame recommend. That is; direct to the HF posts and jump to the LF. Using the same cable as jumpers isn't necessary but seems to make sense. I've never felt the need to change this arrangement after years of listening. YMMV.



"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:11:04
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 For me jumpers made a big difference. But now I both biwire and biamp so no more jumpers. The LF section is likely going to use at least 3X more power so I'm not sure about connecting to the HF terminals. Try both and let us know what you heard.

ET

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:15:15
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 When I made jumpers from the speaker cable I was using (8TC) they sucked. The original 25 year old brass connector 18 gauge wire jumpers were much better. Made me scratch my head for sure.

ET




ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 22, 2016 at 18:18:35
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I recommend a very large aggregate gauge multi-conductor bi-wire jumper cable. Both the low-pass and high-pass crossover sections benefit greatly when a high-performance bi-wire jumper is implemented to bridge the signal, since filters and drivers tend to be current-hungry for optimal performance.

Building a DIY bi-wire jumper can be an interesting experiment. I find the more wires you add to a twisted bundle, the more dynamic/energetic/coherent the bridged signal may be to either the low-pass or high-pass crossover sections. That said, a bi-wire jumper is an adapter, and most adapters are a sonic compromise. The best option is to choose a set of bi-wire speaker cables.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 03:01:38
sberamji
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: March 23, 2016
 The jumpers can change the sound phenomenally. Infact if you are on a budget and do not have a very high end speaker cable you can compensate for that by using a better jumper. From my experience the jumper tends to dominate the speaker cable and kinda superimposes its character onto the speaker cables character. For example I was using the Chord Sarum jumpers and they made the sound super articulate. I could hear every last syllable that was sung. When I switched to the Audience AU jumpers the sound became lush and sounded like the Audience's house sound. I was using a Supra 3.4 cable all the time and was able to refine the sound tremendously by including a higher end jumper.

You can try getting bare wire from vandenhul and using that as a jumper as it will be cheaper and will change the sound depending on what you are looking to get out of the same.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 06:37:56
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Nothing beats bi-wire with separate cables of the same manufacturer to one really good amp. Unless its to two identical really good amps.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 08:13:59
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 I call BS on this - just pull the plate from the speaker and look at the wire coming from the crossover to the speaker post. Use something similar to wire your post together as you would biwire on the outside. Save the kilo bucks spend on jumpers and buy more music!

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 09:21:57
sberamji
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: March 23, 2016
 What's with the aggression my friend? Jumpers do make a difference and they don't cost a kilo buck. Infact you can use cheaper speaker cables and save a kilo buck if you add a higher spec jumper. Please read others takes on using the Kimber monocle with the select jumpers and getting performance close to the select cables. What speaker did you use? Every speaker manufacturer voices their speaker using a set of electronics and cables that you and I have no clue about. When one mixes and matches components one has to try and get an optimum balance that appeals to ones perception of sound and that my friend may require tweaking the jumpers as well.



 

Very well said. (nt), posted on March 23, 2016 at 09:55:33
axolotl
Audiophile

Posts: 3955
Location: So. California
Joined: September 10, 2002
 nt
axolotl

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 11:21:37
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 daleda....the big problem with a site like this is that people make grand stupid statements that are completely false..... There should be a filter for such things.

 

First off, are the jumpers to tweeters ONLY, or to midrange and tweeters? matters..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 14:00:05
Smelly_Socks
 If the jumpers are to tweeters only, then a super quality single strand/solid core small gauge wire would be best, with no end connectors either.
If the jump is to both midrange and tweeter combo, then the best wire you can get.. of whatever type you want. (I would suggest not a small gauge solid core wire for the midrange...)

 

RE: First off, are the jumpers to tweeters ONLY, or to midrange and tweeters? matters..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 14:48:35
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 @smelly_socks. Thanks for your input. I think it's only to the tweeter. What gauge would be preferable if it's only to the tweeter? If I were to use a large gauge...eg 12awg (currently using and stranded)...would it cause more HF energy? I am seeking less treble energy...ie... softer and more relaxed treble. Would solid core be the way to go and should I stick to stranded? Thanks again.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 14:55:06
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 If you mean the op I have to agree!

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 15:06:09
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 Thanks so much Everyone. Really appreciate your input...:)

@Duster...I am experimenting with jumpers without going through the expense of changing speaker cables... yet again. I am actually currently using a pair of internal biwired cables, however, it's not to my liking as it sounds a little dry in the mids. I could use more warmth too. Seeking a softer and more relaxed treble...I am fine if it's rolled off like the old cardas. I am gonna try new jumpers in combination with a single run of vintage MITs. Do you know of any bulk cable that has those attributes?

Thanks again.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 23, 2016 at 16:51:58
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I happened to be using MIT speaker cables while experimenting with DIY bi-wire jumpers. I preferred connecting the MITs to the low-posts, and bridging the signal to the high-posts. IME, sonic affectation due to the use of an adapter was more forgivable when the bi-wire jumper was implemented for the tweeter rather than the more dominant driver within the loudspeaker system. An important aspect to consider was the resonant frequency of the woofer may be best served by connecting the speaker cable directly to low-pass section. To my ear, the loudspeaker presented better PRAT when the bi-wire jumper was configured that way. YMMV

A 3 foot run of Cardas 101 bulk speaker cable, divided into four pieces will provide four 9" bi-wire jumpers; two jumper cables per loudspeaker. Each jumper consists of two 14 AWG conductors, which when combined will provide an 11 AWG aggregate/effective gauge bi-wire jumper per polarity. This means both conductors within a single bi-wire jumper will be connected to the same binding post, rather than divide them between the left and right binding posts. It's not a sophisticated litz-wire design, but it should perform well with your MIT speaker cables.

Termination instructions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIR78FYeMs

See link to seller:

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 24, 2016 at 06:28:27
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 The shorter the wire, the more probable that degradation is associated with spades and solder joints. For jumpers I use unterminated 8awg .999 fine silver wire from Rio Grande. It's a cheap enough experiment. It's thick and soft enough to form into a hook that won't spread out when you tighten the binding post.

 

So in theory..., posted on March 24, 2016 at 07:15:51
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3157
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 If you crimped a foot or so of expensive cable onto the end of an economical cable, no matter whether speaker had single or bi-wire-able post, you may end up with a facsimile of the expensive cable.

Kind of like use an expensive power cord even though the current travels through many feet of regular house wire first.

This could start a new trend. Yikes... :)

Cheers!

Jonesy



"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

As I mentioned before, posted on March 24, 2016 at 08:41:37
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004
 At least one very reputable speaker mfgr and one highly respected person in the cable world have recommended a hookup of cables different to the in-the-box belief. As it was explained to me by Stuart Marcus: the most important driver in a speaker configuration is the tweeter and then asked, 'why would you provide it leftover power'?. I've tried biwire, standard jump to HF and power to HF-jump to LF. Of course, this forum has self-proclaimed experts. Listen for yourself and decide.



"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 24, 2016 at 11:40:37
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Hi Duster,

What do you think of the Cardas 101 as speaker cable rather than just jumpers. The price is right and I don't see anything wrong with the design. Does it make you low priced recommended speaker cable list?

Dave

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 24, 2016 at 12:47:56
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I'm familiar with the more expensive 4-conductor Cardas Crosslink 1S, but not the 2-conductor Cardas 101. Based on my good experience of the Crosslink 1S, the lower-cost Cardas 101 bulk length speaker cable is also said to be a musical, smooth sounding design befitting a Cardas product. An 8 foot set of external bi-wire configuration cables (four separate cables) would be just over $200, which is a very low-cost option. How it compares with other low-cost bulk length speaker cable designs is likely very favorable.

 

Four bi-wire jumper configurations to choose from., posted on March 24, 2016 at 19:08:20
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 There are four different bi-wire jumper configuration methods to choose from, based on individual listener's taste. Each configuration will offer a different sonic characteristic, with no hard rule as to which one may be the best for all applications and all listeners, since various bi-wire capable loudspeakers can respond quite different based on the crossover slope of particular high-pass and low-pass sections, and how they are actually wired within the loudspeaker enclosure.

Speaker cable connected to either the hi-pass section, or the low-pass section:

1. Speaker cable connected directly to high-pass section, bridged via bi-wire jumpers to low-pass section.

2. Speaker cable connected directly to low-pass section, bridged via bi-wire jumpers to high-pass section.

---

Speaker cable connected staggered between the two crossover sections:

3. Speaker cable positive (+) connected to high-pass section, with speaker cable negative (-) connected to low-pass section, bridged via bi-wire jumpers between the staggered connections.

4. Speaker cable positive (+) connected to low-pass section, with speaker cable negative (-) connected to high-pass section, bridged via bi-wire jumpers between the staggered connections.

Note: The most common staggered connection method is method number 3. The concept is to allow the negative (-) return conductor to be directly connected to the woofer which benefits most from a low-impedance path to ground, while providing a direct positive (+) connection to the tweeter for the benefit of high-pass section components, especially critical capacitors and resistors placed in series with the load.

 

Go with a solid core 18 gauge, or 20 gauge bare ends on wire, posted on March 24, 2016 at 20:16:54
Smelly_Socks
 This should get you cleaner treble. which may be as much the problem. (IE nasties in the treble you want it LESS. if it was clean and nice, he volume would not be annoying. IMO anyway.
And if your treble is harsh, I suggest a power conditioner on the equipment.

 

RE: Four bi-wire jumper configurations to choose from., posted on March 25, 2016 at 04:50:38
mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004
 Okay.



"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 25, 2016 at 12:41:46
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Thanks! I am only going to need 3 feet per side and the design looks like it would present a good load to my amp.

Dave

 

RE: Go with a solid core 18 gauge, or 20 gauge bare ends on wire, posted on March 25, 2016 at 14:52:53
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 @Smelly_socks. Thanks...20awg single solid core upocc is super cheap. I will try that too.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 25, 2016 at 14:57:49
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 The Cardas 101 bulk speaker cable should be a good match for your vintage Threshold/Spendor combo. I look forward to knowing your impressions after the cables settle into your system.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 25, 2016 at 15:12:58
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 @Duster. Thanks again for your help and time. Really appreciate it. So far, I have borrowed 3 sets of jumpers and an extra pair of cables...there is a definite change in sonic character with each change in jumper. I guess it's a matter of finding the combination of cable and jumper that best suits one's preferences in SQ. Will try the Cardas 101 with MIT next.

I intend to go barewire with the jumpers. Will deoxit be effective in getting rid of oxidization that will eventually build up...or is there a less tedious way esp with stranded? Thanks again.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 25, 2016 at 15:53:47
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 DeoxIT is a contact cleaner that may leave a residue within a stranded wire bundle, so I would stick to cleaning your binding posts with DeoxIT rather than try to clean the ends of stranded conductor with it. An advisable approach for a stranded bare wire connection is to place the ends into a binding post hole and tighten the nut with a binding post wrench in order to provide a nominal gas-free interface with maximized contact area, and leave it alone thereafter other than occasionally making sure the binding post nuts have not loosened over time. If many wire strands become broken due to high-torque or if obvious oxidation takes place, cut off all of the wire strands and strip the insulation again in order to provide fresh wire strands to place within the binding posts. Otherwise, you might consider a proper termination of the bi-wire jumpers with speaker cable connectors of your choice.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 26, 2016 at 16:47:17
cabelok
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: Phoenix
Joined: September 9, 2015
 Do you connect the speaker wire at the bottom or top? High or Low, not sure which term is correct. Thanks for the Rio Grande tip.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 26, 2016 at 17:17:57
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 It didn't make an audible difference on my Merlin VSMs. I'll chalk that up to the quality and thickness of the silver jumpers. But on general principle I place the speaker cable spade on the treble binding post and the silver jumper on the outside of the spade and onward to the mid driver.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 26, 2016 at 17:25:08
cabelok
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: Phoenix
Joined: September 9, 2015
 What gge did you use?

 

8GA= .128", posted on March 26, 2016 at 17:31:53
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 dead soft silver

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 28, 2016 at 21:07:36
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 For the LF section to use '3x more power' the crossover will need to be pretty high. I'd estimate 1500 to 2000hz.

The LF will use higher PEAKS but the AVERAGE power is as I claim, above.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 29, 2016 at 13:14:59
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I will post!

Dave

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 31, 2016 at 06:23:35
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
 @Duster. The MIT and cardas 101 turned out to be a rather a good combo. If I may ask you another question...would 14awg be ok for a 5 meter run? Have chanced upon a used pair (diff brand) that I would like to try before I settle down on the one which is closest to what I am seeking in SQ.

Thanks again.

 

RE: Impact of jumpers , posted on March 31, 2016 at 10:50:24
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 A 5 meter (16 foot) run while not optimum is under the maximum advisable length based on practical guidelines for a 14 AWG speaker cable. However, for a length over 10 feet, I would recommend doubling the cable cross section (11 AWG) by selecting a 4-conductor cable such as the Cardas Crosslink 1S rather than the 2-conductor Cardas 101. Cardas Crosslink 1S would also provide lower inductance when wired cross connected (star quad) instead of that of a twisted pair such as the Cardas 101.

 

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