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About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs.

85.19.92.6
Posted on April 16, 2015 at 01:20:28
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi
i do not remember where but i read something like the differences between different XLR cables are less pronounced than between RCA cables.
Is this really true ? why ?
Thanks a lot.

Kind regards,
bg

 

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RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 16, 2015 at 16:20:50
PAR
 In short: that is not true. In fact for many brands you will find that the actual cable used for the equivalent RCA and XLR versions is identical (excluding digital versions where characteristic impedence is of greater significance). Only connections differ. Incidentally it doesn't mean that they will sound the same as this will depend upon how the XLR or RCA circuitry has been implmented in the equipment.

Of course the XLR version should pick up less extraneous noise ( e.g. RFI)if used in a correctly implemented balanced circuit. But this isn't anything to do with the cable per se.

My experience is broadly that the differnce between brands of cable in RCA versions will usually be closely reflected in the XLR versions. Unsurprising if they use the same cable.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 16, 2015 at 22:51:00
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
But please let me rephrase the question.
If we take a Brand with cables of different levels of sound performance.
The difference between the cheapest and the most expensive XLR will be of the same level of the difference between the cheapest and the most expensive RCA ?
I know that is a little weird and difficult to answer question.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 17, 2015 at 03:34:10
PAR
 Logically it will still be as I said above. Whatever the difference is beween the cheapest and most expensive RCA or XLR cable will be of a similar order. Of course if the RCA and XLRs use different base cables then all bets are off as new variables have been introduced. The most expensive may even sound worse (I have known it).

I think that you have been misled somewhere along the line that XLR cables are somehow inherently immune or partly immune to what I will call transmission errors (causing the "sound" of a cable) compared to what otherwise affects RCA cables. I have read several postings over the years with correspondents saying that there is no need to be concerned about cables when using balanced connection. BTW, not on AA thank gooodness. In every case this has been from noobies who have not had actual experince of balanced configurations and who do not understand what a balanced circuit does. In fact I actually had to explain the latter to the technical editor of a world famous magazine some years ago. Worrying :-(

In short the differential circuit used for balanced connection will cancel spurious signals picked up by its two halves but cannot cancel out other considerations as both halves of the circuit are identical and are only inverted in resepect of each other electrically, not physically. I haven't put this in the in the most elegant manner but I hope that you will get the gist of it.

So two XLRs in balnced configuration will show less difference to each other in respect of noise pick up compared to two RCAs but that is because of the circuitry not the inherent performance of the cable.





 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 17, 2015 at 05:55:38
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
 [quote]Bill Conrad stated that balanced circuitry in home audio gear is a solution looking for a problem[/quote]

imo, Bill Conrad is right, in this instance...

imo, there is no real benefit of using XLR ICs, unless you require 10m long ICs or your components do not have RCA sockets.

For me it depends on the RCA or XLR electronics and the quality of the RCA or XLR ICs not whether it is RCA or XLR, which is how I hear it.

With RCA ICs, if the noise is well controlled then RCAs can/should sound better than XLR ICs. In many instances though noise is not well controlled but if noise is well controlled then RCA ICs can/should sound better :)

Unfortunately, XLR electronics remove 2nd order harmonics as part of the XLR noise filtering/cancelling process, which our ears like, but leaves the 3rd order harmonics in place including the noise, which our ears do not like... :)

Even more so, if the Hot and Cold XLR electronics is not well matched then the noise filtering/cancelling process can be even stronger where even more 2nd, and even 3rd, order harmonics are removed. I guess that will provide a smoother, maybe warmer, sound :)

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 17, 2015 at 06:02:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks again and sorry i am a little slow but i think i have understood.
The balanced configuration gives in general less noise for instance.
But what you name "transmission errors" could still happen.
And i guess these errors are much worse for overall sound quality that a little more noise ? This is very complicated.
I watched the interview attached. I understood nothing.
But i see the complexity of signal transmission.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 17, 2015 at 06:28:10
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting and helpful advice.
Noise is really one of the reasons that have led me to balanced equipment.
And then the misinformation that cheapest XLRs can sound pretty good, much much better than cheap RCA.
The value of my equipment can be very easily surpassed by the cost of just a pair of supercables.

But i have a question.
You say " Unfortunately, XLR electronics remove 2nd order harmonics as part of the XLR noise filtering/cancelling process ".
But then this should happen even during the recording process because mics, preamps and dac are usually balanced devices.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 18, 2015 at 07:25:05
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Comparing balanced vs. single-ended is more about the differences in how the gear is designed and less about the differences in how the cables sound.

Some manufacturers like single-ended designs because they are less expensive to produce.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 18, 2015 at 08:40:25
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the helpful advice.
If i am not wrong fully balanced needs 4 amp channel insted of 2 and this is a complication clearly.
But taken from an answer i gave below, mics and mic preamps come usually balanced ... why ? there is an intrinsic advantage of balanced configuration ?
The only real think i have against unbalanced is the average poor execution of RCA connectors in the cheap to medium price units. Very very poor.
And the good ones are very expensive.
XLRs even cheap ones look much much better. They give a positive feeling.
I am about to try some cheap but supposedly good XLR cables.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 18, 2015 at 09:26:16
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Cable manufacturers have been trying to come up with good rca connectors for years with some of the notable "improvements" being locking connectors as used by Furutech and others, multiple thin contact blades, expanding contact blades, and other modifications to the contacts and materials used in the body of the plug (see Eichmann and WBT NextGen). After selling my last Tom Evans Vibe preamp, I have gone to all balanced gear so no longer use rca plugs, except to my sub. If I were still using rca's, I would favor Furutech and Eichmann, although WBT and Xhadow have their fans too. I use these on the cables I make;



 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 18, 2015 at 23:57:50
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
Great parts the Furutech ones indeed. I like indeed the XLR plug you show.
It looks solid and clean ... beautiful.
Also i read what a great preamp is the Vibe. Never listened to it sadly.
I am more a solid state guy because i am convinced that a good sound can be had also with solid state, not easy but ...

However, may i ask you why you have switched to all balanced gear ?
is there any technical consideration behind the choice ?

Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 05:41:30
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 IME, the XLR connector offers less RFI/EMI pick-up.
I like both the RCA and XLR cables, w/ the right synergy, one can use each connector in the same system.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 06:36:30
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for a very interesting information.
By the way i was thinking that the recorded sound comes into the world balanced as most microphones are indeed balanced, if i am not wrong.
So it makes sense to preserve the balanced operations throughout the audio recording and playback chain maybe ?
Speaking again of connectors i have a humble experience of replacing bad panel rcas on a unit with decent ones ... amazing. I was skeptical but maybe better contact changed the sound for the better.
So i have of course nothing against well executed RCAs.
Thanks again for the important advice about RFI/EMI.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 06:51:27
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 I too do better with solid state components. I want great sound but I also want a minimum of hassle and concern. I want gear that can safely remain powered up all the time, both because IME all electronics sound better after warm-up, and also because my listening schedule is erratic and sometimes might be only for a half hour or so, although other times for longer. While this is mostly self-imposed because of other interests I am involved in, it does mean I do better with gear that doesn't take so much "care and feeding" as in warm-up, checking tubes, etc. I also want gear that is reliable and can be easily repaired, if necessary. At least I want manufacturers who are accessible to us in the USA and known for being responsive to their customers.

Currently, everything in my system can easily remain powered up with no worries about either safety or the gear itself. Of course, if I plan to leave for days, or in the event of thunderstorms, I do power things down. My current amps include a low power draw pair of Class D monoblocks and a large Class A/B heavy A bias McCormack (SMc modified) amp that has an outstanding automatic standby circuit that keeps things powered up at a very low bias and switches to full power when a signal is sensed at the inputs. This works very well.

I thought the Tom Evans Vibe was a great preamp (I ended up owning 5 different ones over the years) and even though I tried many tubed preamps (and a few solid state preamps) during that time period, I kept coming back to the TEAD Vibe. While basically an op-amp design, it was quite musical and enjoyable to listen to. The only minor nits were that, only compared to the very best I have heard, it was not quite as rich sounding and perhaps didn't convey the last word in bass slam.

What finally made me give that preamp up for good was a concern about repair options in the event I would ever need them (several have expressed problems shipping to England and dealing with TEAD) and also that my then Clayton Class A amps took only a balanced signal so I needed to use Jensen input transformers since the TEAD Vibe is single-ended and only has rca outputs.

I looked for a preamp that would simplify my concerns with the Vibe but still provide excellent sound and I finally found the McCormack TLC-1 passive/buffered preamp. To shorten that story, you can see more about my SMc modified TLC-1 Signature Edition on my system page. It is a buffered passive with no gain and has been completely rebuilt to a very high standard that approaches SMc's VRE preamp in sound quality. Working with the folks at SMc was a pleasure and the result betters over 20 high quality preamps I have had in my system. Although no gain, it outputs through high quality transformers and the bass is very powerful and defined. In every way, it is a joy to listen to.

So, back to your question, my Metrum DAC, SMc preamp, and both SMc DNA-2 LAE amp and Acoustic Imagery monos are fully balanced so running balanced cables was the natural way to go.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 07:17:21
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thank you sincerely for the very interesting story and the valuable advice.
I listened some years ago to a McCormack pre+amp and the sound was really excellent.
I decided for balanced because my best dac has only balanced outs but in a way i regret a little the choice. It has complicated my life.
There are so many unbalanced good equipment ...

By the way i could be wrong but you did not really need the Jensen input transformers.
I have also a balanced power amp but in the recent past i was driving it with an unbalanced preamp and a rca to xlr adapter and I did not experience any particular issue. Maybe i was lucky.
I have checked now and the - pin at the balanced out is shorted to ground.
Instead connecting a balanced out with an unbalanced in is a real mess.
Bloody dac ... it is complicating my life, but dac is still a very open issue.
I have not find yet a very satisfying solution.
Thanks again for the extremely interesting story and very helpful advice.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 07:44:05
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Two comments,
First, the Clayton amplifiers are fully balanced and will not work with an unbalanced input, even through adaptors. The hum resulting from that scenario was way too loud to even listen. I had those results with two different Clayton amplifiers and others have reported similar results so it must be an inherent design issue. However, on the bright side, the Clayton's 100K ohm input impedance is high enough that, from a moderately low output impedance source or preamp, the rca to XLR input transformers work well, sound good and result in zero hum.
Second, if you call the folks at Jensen Transformers they may have an XLR to rca input transformer that would work for your situation. Another option is the SMc Audio Flex-Connect interface. Call Steve at SMc to discuss that solution. It is more expensive than the Jensen's, but very high quality.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 08:19:27
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 My pleasure-bg.
For RCA cables look into Transparent or Audience.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 08:36:46
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks again for the very helpful advice
I am not an expert but it seems clear that my amp is not really balanced but just with a balanced inputs.
The adapters actually came with the power amp provided by the manufacturer to be used with unbalanced preamps.
The fact that many power amps are not really balanced makes me wonder if this is really need in a home situation.
A balanced unit need 4 amp lines instead of 2 and the gain could be debatable. Some high class units are unbalanced.
As i said the dac is my present problem. I am waiting for the next generation of multibit.
I usually find the sound from dacs clean but flat, unexciting.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 08:45:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks again.
I imagine that the suggestion is valid also for their XLR versions.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 08:56:49
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Unfortunately, XLR electronics remove 2nd order harmonics as part of the XLR noise filtering/cancelling process, which our ears like, but leaves the 3rd order harmonics in place including the noise, which our ears do not like"


Balanced (or differential circuits) cancel the even ordered harmonic distortion that they create, not harmonics that were part of the input signal.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 10:02:47
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the interesting information
and they do anything on the odd ordered harmonic distortion they create ? usually this kind of distortion is worse from what i understand
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 10:21:54
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing- Tre'

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 10:25:47
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 bg-

I read in your system profile, that you use a Primare pre-amp. Is there a reason for not using a Primare power amp?

About 10years ago I had a wonderful demo of Primare gear (pre, power cd spinner) on Vienna Acoustics speakers. DiMario cables were featured.

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 10:53:36
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "[do they do] anything on the odd ordered harmonic distortion they create ?"

No, they don't. There is no mechanism in a differential circuit to cancel the odd ordered harmonic distortion that they create.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 11:00:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and yes i have a very old primare pre30 that sadly has some issues with the volume pot.
I am looking for a service shop here around and it is out of the system now. Do you know the unit maybe ?
I have also a even older Electrocompaniet 4.5 but it is a little soft and too rounded ... not very precise.
I prefer a precise equipment and then make up the sound with the cables. I know that is weird.

But my main nightmare is the dac. I have problem getting a good digital sound.
But this week will be interesting. I am waiting for a pair of Cardas Hexlink xlr to use at the dac out into a SAC headphone amp (an amp designed for the akg k1000).
I am using the headphones to test the sound out from the dac.
If i will be able to get a convincing sound in the headphones that will mean that the source is ok.
I believe that my heaphone set-up is much more revealing than my stereo system and also i have problems with the present neighbours (cannot raise the volume).
I really have hopes in the new cables. They should arrive soon.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 11:34:35
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot again
I did not know this. So sadly bad distortion passes untouched.
However the beneficial effect on the noise still remains.
Thanks again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 18:19:11
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "By the way i was thinking that the recorded sound comes into the world balanced as most microphones are indeed balanced, if i am not wrong."

That's right!

"So it makes sense to preserve the balanced operations throughout the audio recording and playback chain maybe ?"

While the output of most all microphones are balanced and the input to the mic-pre is balanced, in almost all cases the mic-pre circuit is not.

I know of only one studio console that was balanced all the way through.

The Maytag project. This was years ago but I actually saw pieces of it.

I don't know of any professional tape machines that are balanced all the way through. I could be wrong.

In the tube era studio equipment used input and output transformers so they were balanced, in and out, but the circuits in between those transformers was single ended.

Tre'




Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: About differences between cables - RCAs vs. XLRs., posted on April 19, 2015 at 22:34:20
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot again for the extremely helpful advice.
I think i have got something very interesting, that is that most of the audio equipment circuits are actually unbalanced internally.
And indeed i have seen some schematics of amps and there is a little circuit at the input that takes the balanced signal and makes it unbalanced.
So maybe the balanced connections are implemented in order to provide a better transmission of the audio signal from one equipment to the equipment downstream ? well this is very interesting.
Thanks a lot again for the very valuable advice.
Kind regards.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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