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Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?

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Posted on April 7, 2015 at 10:37:02
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
Hi Everyone,

Which direction should I be going towards...solid core or stranded if I needed an IC with thicker bass, richer and fuller mids and softer (relaxed)highs? Or neither...just depends on design and make of the IC.

Thank you.

 

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Cardas, posted on April 7, 2015 at 11:12:36
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015

I don't think it's that simple, that's only one parameter.

But what you're describing is the Cardas sound.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 7, 2015 at 11:33:52
Aaron 01
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Location: Golden Colorado
Joined: July 18, 2004
In my experience generally a solid core design will get you going in the direction you are looking for.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 7, 2015 at 23:31:25
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
There are fine stranded (Litz?) cables and fine solid core cables.

I would guess that if you had 1 pair of well-engineered and constructed cable type that uses superior parts and wiring that was stranded and another identical pair that was solid core, you probably wouldn't even hear any difference.

That said, what can make a significant difference is having either cable type properly cryo-treated. And it's not just a more natural bass that you will hear but many other sonic improvements too.

But if you were to try this route, the only way to really hear said differences is if you have the associated speaker cables cryo'ed also.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 8, 2015 at 09:24:45
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3350
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 4, 2000
I think the post below hit the nail on the head when suggesting Cardas. Look for a cable line that favors that sonic signature, rather than the solid core vs. stranded approach. What you seek can be achieved by either construction type.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 8, 2015 at 10:02:37
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015


Another option is the higher-end MIT cables. They have rich mids and excellent bass, with outstanding imaging. But stay away from the lower-end MITs.

That said, I think Cardas is better for ICs.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 8, 2015 at 16:59:00
krankkall
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: New Mexico
Joined: April 5, 2014
I make my own ICs out of Mogami 2549 bulk cable and Switchcraft 3502A RCA connectors.
IMHO, quite good and VERY affordable.

Steve

 

RE: Mogami, posted on April 8, 2015 at 20:52:34
niws
Audiophile

Posts: 789
Location: Northeast
Joined: September 4, 2003
I own interconnects made from Mogami 2549, 2534 and 2524. They are all "good for $30" interconnects and can compete sonically with cables costing a little more.
Recently, I stumbled across an listing on Amazon and bought a pair of Mogami W2803 for $90. This cable is in a different league. It has far better clarity, resolution of fine details, deeper bass and soundstage size and precision compared to the other Mogami cables I mentioned above that I own (or anything else under $300 that I have heard). Despite it's high resolution, it is not a "bright" sounding cable so it won't "open up" a dark sounding system, but if you want a neutral sound with high resolution, I would wager you can't do much better than this cable.
I haven't posted about this previously because the cable is currently sold out and the seller has emailed me he is going to re-introduce the cable with different connectors (KLE Harmony RCA's) at a higher price. So I was waiting to see how much he is going to charge.
My understanding is that W2803 is (or was) Mogami's top of the line audiophile cable that was not previously sold in the USA. It is a thin, stiff cable that doesn't look like much, but I think it is worth auditioning.

 

RE: Mogami, posted on April 8, 2015 at 23:27:39
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi thanks very interesting indeed
I found this here

http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/microphone/unbalanced/

" Note: For the very highest quality recording applications, Mogami original high-end Neglex audio cable Part No. W2803 or Part No. W2497 constructed with patented Double - Cylindrical structure should be used "

that confirms your recommendation.
I am trying to find more info about its construction.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Mogami, posted on April 9, 2015 at 18:00:45
niws
Audiophile

Posts: 789
Location: Northeast
Joined: September 4, 2003
There is not a lot of information available about it. However, if you google it, you can find some information on the internet. I believe it is made from pcocc copper with a proprietary dielectric that is designed to reduce eddy currents or skin effects. I can't tell if the copper is a single strand or multiple strand.

 

RE: Mogami, posted on April 10, 2015 at 05:06:02
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful reply
I would like to try something of the "litz" kind.
After reading here ...

http://www.thresholdlovers.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=1098

Sommercable Albedo
Bass 8
Mid 9
High 8
Soundstage 9
Price 8

A good and tactile midrange is a very big challenge with digital (i only listen to digital these days).
I know that Cardas cables have a really magic touch with digital.
I tried, but unbalanced, both 300B and Neutral ref ... the 300B that i have is very good indeed. The Neutral just wonderful, but expensive.
i purchased a 1m pair of XLR Sommercable Albedo. They should be litz.
Let's listen.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 10, 2015 at 09:15:30
passive chappy
Audiophile

Posts: 70
Location: Evanston, IL
Joined: September 17, 2009
In past experiences I've found that inexpensive stranded wire sounds thin and bright. You generally have to drop big dough to avoid that.

I've found inexpensive solid core wire to have more of what you're looking for. DNM cables are a good example of this.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 10, 2015 at 10:27:06
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi i have a DIY experience.
I found a small and cheap coaxial with the center conductor in Cu solid core without plating and the sound was less harsh especially in the midrange. Actually quite full and warm. I liked it.
So i think that solid core wires could be a solution.
I think that is an harsh midrange what can irritate most.
The ear is more sensitive in the midrange.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 10, 2015 at 12:33:41
pc123v
Audiophile

Posts: 225
Joined: February 6, 2014
Thanks everyone for your help!

 

RE: Mogami, posted on April 10, 2015 at 14:47:00
I have been pleasantly surprised by W2893 for XLR interconnects. I use them in my HT system. I tried them in my 2ch rig also, and they bested some low end and midrange Cardas, Kimber, Audioquest, and Tellurium Q, but not the Silver Audio that I'm using now. These Mogami cables are very well balanced all around, top to bottom, with good dynamics. Great value for money.



 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 10, 2015 at 20:00:54
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
It may depend on where you are starting from. If you are using a solid core interconnect cable at this time, it could depend on the gauge of the conductor involved. If you are using a stranded conductor cable at this time, you most likely will already have a euphonic presentation, IME. In that stranded conductors tend to provide *artificially* thicker bass, richer and fuller mids and softer highs than well designed solid core interconnect cables tend to provide, IME. YMMV

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 11, 2015 at 08:49:23
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and excuse me for a question
You say " I would guess that if you had 1 pair of well-engineered and constructed cable type that uses superior parts and wiring that was stranded and another identical pair that was solid core, you probably wouldn't even hear any difference " for stranded you mean stranded litz ? because i read something about interstrand distortion or similar.
I wonder if normal stranded wires (no litz) could be all affected by this type of distortion.
In that case only cables made out of litz or solid core wires should be chosen i guess.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

Mogami, posted on April 11, 2015 at 10:29:00
DrN
Audiophile

Posts: 366
Joined: January 31, 2014
Ha! Yea Mogami 2549 is quite something,very good for an embarrassingly
Cheap price of .80/ft!!
System dependent as all cables you need to try it.
Terminated with home grown audio rhodium over silver RCA's.
NICE, Very NICE!

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 11, 2015 at 13:39:59
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
Well, my Audio Tekne speaker cables are a Litz wire, so by default I think of Litz when I think of stranded. I've not heard of inter-strand distortion but I've heard plenty about "time smear" which for 10 years was a big buzz word but that concept seems to have faded. Perhaps inter-strand distortion is the new name for "time smear".

I really only know about cables from an end-user performance-oriented perspective. In my experience, cables of any type generally sound more alike than different. But every so often, one comes along that is clearly more musical than others I've tried. As well as once in a blue moon, one is clearly more inferior than the others.

IMO, some-to-many new cable discoveries and terminologies come and go so I try not to pay much attention to them.

Even something so silly as a cable's girth. 10 years ago, if your cables weren't 3 times the girth of your garden hose, you weren't an "audiophile". That was such nonsense. In fact since 2005 I've been using Audio Tekne speaker cables whose girth is smaller than a No. 2 Pencil. It was a tad more musical than any of the other cables I'd used prior to, but its performance really came into its own when when I had them double-cryo'ed via the popular vapor method and they really started to sing when I had them cryo'ed in 2013 via the full-immersion method.

My tiny Audio Tekne's, cryo'ed via what I consider the superior full immersion method, remain the most musical speaker cables I've yet experienced and I've owned or auditioned speaker cables retailing for upwards of $8500 a pair.

The added benefit of the Audio Teknes is that they confound those who still consider huge cables as a minimum qualification for superior sound.

The Teknes are copper and my IC's are silver. I would love to audition a superior silver speaker cable cryo'ed via full immersion as I suspect such a cable could be even more detailed and musical. Just as my humble BPT silver IC's retailing for $300 have demonstrated. The BPT IC's remained in my closet for 8 years, but when recently having them cryo'ed via full immersion, they are now the most musical I've yet owned or auditioned.


 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on April 12, 2015 at 00:04:24
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot indde for the very informative e valuable advice
I have only a mid/high end experience with Cardas Neutral Ref IC and i was amazed by the difference they made in sound.
They transformed my digital cd player in a turntable litterally.
And they are of the litz kind. So it seems that litz is indeed a sane concept for signal cables.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

it is all in the insulator... not as much the wire itself. IE Kimber Hero is an example, posted on April 17, 2015 at 09:46:18
So the same wire is available in bulk, but NOT with the same insulation... from Kimber.

The Hero IC (particularly the XLR configuration) has great bass. Not as much so the SAME WIRE with other insulation.
Just saying.

 

The insulator and the wire itself., posted on April 18, 2015 at 12:01:56
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
Both the dielectric (insulator) and the metal wire itself affect the sonic signature of a conductor, not to mention cable geometry.

While bigger is not always better, larger gauge conductors tend to provide more body, more authoritative bass, more assertive midrange presence, and more subdued treble vs. smaller gauge conductors which tend to sound leaner if not at times more refined sounding in terms of neutrality/transparency/dynamics. Finding a "happy medium" can provide a more ideal sounding conductor of choice for a given application.

Regarding dielectric effect, various dielectric materials implemented as wire insulation have distinct sonic characteristics due to audible dielectric involvement, which in some cases can produce increased tonal bloom or perceived warmth if not smearing, veiling, slowness. PVC is notorious as a potentially problematic insulation material, since it has a high dielectric constant relative to lower dielectric constant types such as Teflon, polyethylene, and newer polymers for audiophile purposes.

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on October 13, 2015 at 22:54:10
Duster is correct about the stranded but stranded is inappropriate for the audio signal IMO and I'm sure Duster's also. If you use 16 awg magnet wire and warm connectors (and cu solder) you will get a warm and very good sound. Tweaker

 

RE: Thicker bass and richer mids...solid core or standed ICs?, posted on October 14, 2015 at 10:10:05
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Cardas or AudioQuest.

 

Conductivity is king!, posted on October 15, 2015 at 11:48:14
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
You want to maximize the effective conductivity at all frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz+.

Lots of folks approach this differently. Audioquest use separate conductors to make the effective conductivity approximately constant throughout the audio realm.

Lots of others play with geometry to approximate a transmission line.

Some play with geometries to minimize microphonics, play with conductor diameters, and build transmission lines. Some do all kinds of things that will solve specific problems.

Lots of approaches, many of them have basis. Whether it works for you depends upon your situation and if it ends up improving or mucking up the sound.

I've found that the very best cabling I have used has been like that last 1mm twist on a focussing ring on a telescope or microscope. It's a small step, but a pretty important one as everything snaps into focus.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

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