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Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec

47.18.90.250
Posted on March 28, 2015 at 22:28:52
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Looking for more detail and transparency.

The cable as it stands is the belden 83803 with f-11 male and iec connectors, both gold.

The details are there, but I think, that the golds are creating a slight masking of the detail that I had been originally been blaming on my CD player, Sony 5400es

I read about this combo with the cu and ag ends and feel this may be the ticket.

I'm wondering however if I may be better off with cu on both ends.

Any advice?

 

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Done both ways and......, posted on March 29, 2015 at 00:19:26
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 ..find the Cu/Cu the best on my ModWright XA5400ES, BUT if you get the chance to try both, always give it a try, as your system may need the extra added HF the silver imparts. Too much for my ears, but again, YMMV and all that.

I figured the Ag on the IEC end (with Cu on the male plug end) would be just the ticket to superior HF and detail without loss of warmth, so I bought one from Percy and whipped up an AC cord, but I found the Ag on the IEC was just a bit over the threshold of 'rightness', and slightly tipped things toward bright, not 'real'. But you may need, or hear, different.

The Ag definitely will get you more detail and transparency, but as just said, maybe a wee bit too much. Reasonable minds and ears will differ here, and there are no absolutes. But both are VERY fine terminations, and both will give you what you seek. It is all about balance.

The gold were always a no-go with me, and I eschew gold wherever possible. But sometimes you can't, and so we try to make the best of a bad situation.

Good luck, and let us know what you try and what you hear, please.

Cheers,

WS

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on March 29, 2015 at 07:10:14
TRUFI
Audiophile

Posts: 622
Location: So. California
Joined: March 16, 2002
 In a neutral system I have found (plugs), gold plated copper sound best. Rhodium plated copper appears to be too harsh and silver plated copper too bright. Pure copper is even warmer than gold plated copper. Pure brass loses all detail.

The wire and insulation are part of the equation. The sonic effects of plugs changes when using pure copper, pure silver, or silver plated wire. Insulation: PVC, Teflon, cotton, etc. are additional variables. Careful plug/wire matching is important.

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on March 29, 2015 at 08:22:05
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Hmm, trufi, are you saying that unplated copper is Warmer then gold plated copper as even Less Detail than gold? This is going against what most others have said. Hmmm.

Winston brings up a good point about the silver. I also have Maggies with audio research equipment, and it might be as he says " too much" with the silver iec.

Maybe I'll try the copper on the male plug first before I go further.

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on March 29, 2015 at 13:32:40
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I highly recommend using an Audio Grade gold plated phosphorus bronze or gold plated copper IEC inlet for an audio component with a power cord that's terminated with a silver plated Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector. A stock nickel plated brass IEC inlet will only exacerbate an etched and whitened "washed out" sonic characteristic of the silver plated Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector. Before ditching an FI-11(Ag) connector, upgrading a stock nickel plated brass IEC inlet with an Audio Grade gold plated phosphorus bronze or gold plated copper IEC inlet should first be explored.

IME, for insight into the sonic signature of the Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug and Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector combo, they can be compared between unplated brass AC connectors on the one hand, and gold plated brass, phosphorus bronze, and copper AC connectors on the other hand.

My impression of the Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug is what an unplated brass AC plug "should" sound like, meaning replacing an unplated brass AC plug with a unplated (other than a corrosion resistant treatment) Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug does not profoundly affect the presentation in terms of warmth, tonal bloom, and speed like gold plated AC connectors tend to do. Upgrading an uplated brass AC plug with an unplated Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug may provide much better resolution and what sounds like a lowered noise floor with a blacker background, and notably less veiling with improved coherency, without taking an audio system in a far different tonal direction than before.

The silver plated Furutech FI-11(Ag) greatly adds to the sense of increased speed, detail, and even less tonal bloom. Depending on the system, application, and associated power cable, the silver plated Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector can contribute to a sonic signature that's ruthlessly absent of tonal bloom and warmth, especially when it's plugged into a typical stock nickel plated brass IEC inlet. For increased tonal bloom, a variety of other IEC connectors such as a gold plated Furutech FI- 11(G) IEC connector can be implemented in order to "tune" the tonality of the presentation. However, an Audio Grade gold plated phosphorus bronze or gold plated copper IEC inlet should be at the top of the modification list.

YMMV

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on March 29, 2015 at 22:52:31
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Thanks for the responses. I have ordered just the copper fi-11 to experiment with. I will swap out the gold fi-11. So, it will be the f-11cu to belden 83803 to fi-11 gold. This may be all I'm after, just with that one tweaking.

 

What a coincidence!, posted on March 31, 2015 at 01:59:56
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 That was my combo way back when I did the experiments: Maggie MG IIIa/Audio Research Classic 150s. Great combo. You have fine taste (if I do say so myself.) ;-)

Best of luck and please let us know what you hear. Your opinion will be valued by many.

Cheers,

WS

 

RE: What a coincidence!, posted on March 31, 2015 at 13:51:47
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Thanks Winston. I Love my system. It's certainly not lacking in any area during casual listening. Just looking for that last ounce of detail that I know is hiding in there.

most of my gear has been bought on the used market and honestly sounds phenomenal. As far as I'm concerned, maggies are a gift to the hifi community, given their "modest" price tags. I love how they convey such emotion. The 5400 is another "gift" to the hifi community. It's an amazing source that was peanuts compared to its performance, and as you already know is sony's finest *sounding* no frills/jewelry player. I was considering an ARC CD5, but I think I'm going to play around with extracting as much as can out of the 5400. I Have it on a trio of herbies tenderfeet, furutech fuses for both analog and digital trannys, and I really think the gold furutech male on its power cord, as beinging too much warmth. I would like a tad more speed.

I'm just thinking that there is too much gold in the system, making the system too laid back, making it warm and fuzzy. I want more of a live performance vibe, and I think that resolution and transparency are major components of that sound. Tonal bloom, while also a major consideration, I think should be more the icing on the cake, because without transparency, and resolution, you just aren't going to get that brain fooling realism, IMHO.

I bought two fi-11 cu's to replace the 2 fi-11 golds. One feeds my conditioner, and the other feeds the cd power cable. I'm very excited to see what's in store! Should be here in few days!

 

Hey Buddy...., posted on March 31, 2015 at 21:32:05
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 Sounds to me like you got it goin' on, my man. Good on you!

My XA5400ES is actually a hyper-modified rig, which was originally a ModWright. Unfortunately, the MW tube board has a noise problem that, because of both my previous use of a passive preamp device and my listening to large orchestral at concert volume, caused a nasty buzzing in the center of the soundstage. Worked with Dan at MW, but ultimately determined the MW board was the problem when we substituted an "Unbalancer" output stage (by John Broskie over at GlassWare) for the MW board and the problem 'magically' vanished. ;-)

My ARC amps were so ridiculously modified that even Chris at ARC said, "You're absolutely nuts." Got them in 1990 and I yanked them out of the metal chassis, mounted them on 2" MDF platforms with the mains trafo umbilicaled about 3' away from the tube board/main chassis, and then split off the tube heater stage into its own separate trafo, with its own 3' umbilical as well, allowing for maximum distance between the trafos and the sensitive circuitry. Of course, all caps, resistors and wire in the signal path were replaced with premium stuff, along with Bybee Quantum Purifiers going into the diode bridge and a billion other tweaks, which all taken together made for a very nice musical experience. But it was a definite safety hazard, no doubt. Again, looney-tunes stuff, but very, very nice sounding when completed.

Same for the Maggies, except even worse, if you can believe it.

That said, I must also say that such insanity comes with a very heavy price: basically nobody will work on it if it breaks. You need a tech with a brave soul (and usually a very steep hourly rate!) to get matters fixed when they inevitably break, as all things do over time. Had them both 20+ years like that, until I moved to New Zealand and had to sell them (240V over here, as you may know, so the 120V amps had to go.) Same for the Maggies, as they went through three re-glueings of the mylar panels (every 7 years or so) and that would be prohibitively expensive to have done (shipping from NZ to USA is unbelievably steep.) Very sad to say goodbye (sniff, sniff) :-(

Send me a private e-mail and I'll send pics. You'll dig them, for sure. AND then I can clue you in to tons of el cheapo tweaks that will take your system to undreamed of heights at very little to no cost, if you're into that, and many with little effort.

Why am I doing this? Because I don't know shit and it was the generosity of advice of so many audiophiles here and elsewhere that allowed me to do all these things. Me? I'm a tiny stereo midget standing on the shoulders of audio giants, and freely admit it. More importantly though, sharing is beautiful, and I believe in paying forward. Happy to share everything I 'know', which is little, but freely offered.

Or not, if you're not into it, of course. But the offer stands. Your choice.

Regardless, your enthusiasm is wonderful to see. Best of luck and happy listening, no matter what you decide.

Cheers,

WS

 

RE: What a coincidence!, posted on March 31, 2015 at 23:47:17
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Winston, thanks for your offer, I appreciate it. Yes, I would like to hear about your cheapo tweaks and see your audio setup.. I do however, plan on not modifying my equipment, but I'm all for reversable tweaks. It won't allow me to email you however.

 

Hi Audiolover718, posted on April 1, 2015 at 21:58:30
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 No problem. I'll see if I can e-mail you. But I have not been feeling well lately, so do not worry if I take a wee bit of time in doing so. I owe another member a nice, long e-mail, as we are re-kindling our friendship, so please bear with me. I will definitely not forget.

And as for modifying gear, I agree with you entirely. It's a slippery slope of madness and many times, frustration. You are a wise man not to venture down it. I support your decision 100%.

Besides, it can really destroy re-sale value, so I only advise it where you don't care about that at all.

Me? I'm certifiable, but after all, this IS an "Asylum", right? ;-)

We'll be in touch, for sure.

So just lean back and enjoy your wonderful system.......

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 2, 2015 at 11:38:18
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Replaced the gold with the copper. Ummm. It appears there is going to be some break in/settle time that's gonna have to happen. The sound is more tangible than the gold, but uhhh- there is no real resolution to speak of. The Midbass is thicker. The highs seem dull and muted. I'm hoping that this will change with some burn in. The sound stage is indeed more focused than the gold. But where did my details go? There are definitely things I like about the plug, but there is no soundstage, no brilliance,This plug sounds very "earthy" These are my initial impressions with 5 min on the clock. I'm sure that things will prrogress and the resolution will come through. It's like I went from ARC Sound to CJ. Sound. Haha!

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 2, 2015 at 14:22:47
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 Further burn-in should prove beneficial, since detail and coherency via the Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug are among it's best attributes. However, you might find the silver plated Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector along with the unplated Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug will provide what you seek, since it's a tried and true AC connector combo.

You might consider using the gold plated Furutech FI-11M(G) AC plug and gold plated Furutech FI-11(G) IEC connector for a DIY VH Audio Flavor power cord project, since they are the entry-level Audio Grade AC connectors recommended by Chris VenHaus for use with his Flavor power cords. BTW, the Flavor power cables were influenced by the Belden 83802, but the Flavor designs omit the tin plating of the conductors in favor of bare copper, which simply sounds better than tin plated power cord conductors, IME.

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 5, 2015 at 23:06:06
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 I'm really hoping that these open up and get sme more resolution, because honestly, I feel that the gold fi-11 had more air and articulation. Granted my gold fi-11 have years of use on them.

Still, I can't help but feel that my system has taken one step forward, two steps back. I have more tonal bloom, but that's about it. I tried to listen tonight but was uninterested. That's not good. they only have about 72 hours on them, but they sound hermetically sealed. I don't recall my golds ever having this kind of affliction. I thought these were supposed to have greater clarity and detail than the gold plated ones.

I would have thought that even prior to burn in, that these (cu's) would have shown more resolution. I can't imagine burn in contributing enough to give this plug a chance at surpassing the gold at this time. Hopefully they will prove me wrong. I'll be patient. 72 hours is not enough time to make judgement- but these are my initial impressions.

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 6, 2015 at 18:16:16
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 For what you seek, the Furutech FI-11(Ag) IEC connector is what you should implement. I'll be quite surprised if you're disappointed after giving it a try...

Cheers, Duster

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 8, 2015 at 13:25:40
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 UPDATE!

Something I had forgotten about. My fi-ll golds were treated with full strength progold gl100. The metals had been burnished really well with a q tip, leaving no residue, only a smooth as silk finish, similar to freshly detailed car.

I just repeated the processes with the copper plugs. I felt the virgin- from the factory plug, and while it appeared clean and smooth, there was no denying that after the progold treatment, the prongs were slightly shinier, and smoother to the touch. The qtips did get somewhat discolred, but nothing substantial obviously being new; and full strength progold is not that strong of a solvent, but more of a conditioner.

After plugging back in heard a distinct improvement, sounding very reminiscent of the golds. The sound cleared up considerably, and that grityness that had me worried is very much reduced. Now the highs, while still not as extended as the broken in golds were, are now sweet, and reveal much more information in the lower regions (12-14khz) than before, but still not up to the golds airiness yet. The bass has not dropped yet and is still missing that very lowest octave, giving the image good weight like the golds, but that midbass gives a sense of tangibility that the golds just don't have. I do however now feel that breakin could be the dominating factor with these plugs, while before I thought they might have been a lost cause.

I had no idea how integral the progold was to my sound. There is definitely a need for it with my system. The plugs without it just didn't sound that good. Forgetting the progold was truly a folly this time. Who would have thought! Now I can get an even fight between these mains plugs!

Anyway, let's continue with the break in!

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 8, 2015 at 14:35:31
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 It's likely Furutech's anti-corrosion treatment layer on the blades where they make direct contact with the contacts of the AC outlet are at issue. In regards to the Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plugs in my collection, the blades have a bare copper interface with the contacts of the AC outlets, since the AC plugs have been plugged-in and removed countless times over the years. Simply cleaning the bare copper area of the blade with CAIG DeOxit cleaning solution does well to avoid oxidation build-up, while the anti-corrosion treatment layer protects the rest of the blade that does not make direct contact with the AC outlet contact. You might consider further gentle removal of the anti-corrosion treatment layer on the rather small area at the tip of the blade that makes direct contact with the AC outlet contact.

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 15, 2015 at 22:55:42
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Thanks duster,

Do you have any experience with furutech bulk cable, i.e. The alpha 3? I want to stay unshielded, (I've taken off all the shielding of the 83803) and I've read that the tinned copper doesn't really help the sound. Would this be a signifcant upgrade over the belden? It sure as hell is more expensive......I can always get the silver iec down the line as well. Just brainstorming.

Thanks

 

RE: Making my source cable more neutral with fi-11(cu) and fi-11 (ag) iec, posted on April 16, 2015 at 12:58:28
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 I built a Furutech FP-Alpha 3 power cord terminated with Furutech FI-11M(Cu) AC plug and FI-11(Ag) IEC connector for a fellow inmate, and liked what I heard when placed on a power amplifier. It's been advised that the FP-Alpha 3 is best suited for power amplification or power line distributor/conditioner applications rather than source components.

 

RE: Done both ways and......, posted on April 20, 2015 at 22:18:46
Audiolover718
Audiophile

Posts: 222
Joined: February 27, 2011
 Just an update- after 400 hours the sound of the system is absolutely incredible. I can't believe that just changing out the male termination for the cu version could make such a massive improvement. I'm playing Mingus- AH UM, and the seperation, bloom and and timbre are just unreal. Charles is here in concert just for me. I would have never thought that break in would truly be a transformation. I honestly had my doubts. Glad I stuck it out. This unplated copper has given the system, breath, life, tangability, and soul. I'm really thinking about replacing the gold iec with the copper, because its more of the same of this- it may be even better, but nervous of the "too much of a good thing".

 

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