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Gold toxic to silver?

191.101.12.207
Posted on March 21, 2015 at 21:56:04
rp1@surfnetusa.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2755
Location: Norther California
Joined: May 19, 2003
 Is this true? If so, what the hell is the point? I have been reading of gold/silver alloys for a while now, and while I couldn't really see the sense in it, this article seems to show that you actually LOSE ground over good copper when you mix gold and silver.
Give me Ambiguity or give me something else!

 

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RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 09:07:01
Sondek
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Posts: 9620
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 So, conductivity = sound quality?

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 09:25:30
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 The point here is that it's not a discussion of sound quality, it's a discussion of the claim that silver/gold wire has superior electrical performance. In this case, it clearly doesn't, it's a wire that's been intentionally contaminated. If you were designing a cable, would you want the more conductive material, or the less conductive one, assuming you were acting in good faith?

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 09:27:54
Sondek
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Posts: 9620
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I'd want the one that sounded best.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 09:47:13
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 As long as customers are making an informed decision on silver+gold alloy, and not buying it simply because "gold is better" or because "silver needs fixing," if they truly read the post and understand what is going on, then more power to them. I just would hate to see anyone getting tricked into making an uninformed choice. Chances are, the silver/gold cable is going to sound a bit different to someone who has read that page already. It comes down to efficiency, too - to get the same level of electrical performance, you might need twice as much 5% gold alloy silver as you would pure silver - which, in a speaker cable, might be a serious issue. A 15awg silver/gold alloy wire could potentially perform like an 18awg one (half conductivity. Crystal Cables for example are very small gauge as speaker cables go, their entry level stuff is 21-22awg for a speaker cable or less; throw the gold into the mix and you lose 20% IACS, making it more like a 24awg speaker cable:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/crystalcable_piccolo_micro.htm

I can't name too many 24awg speaker cables but even the most staunch cable haters agree that speaker cables have some limits as to how thin they can be:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

It stops being a subjective appreciation thing and starts to be a case of the amp not being able to drive the speakers as intended. So, adding gold to an already thin cable makes a bad problem even worse, all under the auspices of improving the cable's performance.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 10:03:59
Sondek
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Posts: 9620
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Thank you for your altruism. There are lots of folks who frequent this board that need saving from themselves. It is, after all, an asylum.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 10:21:53
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 What I took away from the blog post is this question - what relevant property, other than conductivity does the conductor in a cable possess? And how does conductivity manifest itself on the application side as anything more than simple resistance? It goes against the core purpose of a wire to alloy a pure metal.

We can all enjoy cables of all shapes and sizes, but using a super thin speaker cable that has a gold surprise inside is going to throw off the gauge/impedance/length calculators that people use to ensure their speakers are performing adequately.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 11:49:35
rp1@surfnetusa.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2755
Location: Norther California
Joined: May 19, 2003
 My question was concerning a claimed benefit on the sites that speak of the gold-silver alloy. I did some more research and found that there is quite a loss with as low as 1% of gold added. If they are CLAIMING enhanced conductivity as a benefit, then, that is incorrect or, perhaps, an outright lie.

If they are saying "It sounds better this way, even though we are not sure why" I have no argument. There are other cables with reduced conductivity that are well loved by their owners. Conductivity is only one parameter.
Give me Ambiguity or give me something else!

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 12:10:41
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Who uses a gold-silver alloy? Many use a mixture of gold and silver strands, but very few use an alloy, IIRC. I know Bybee uses a gold silver alloy (18 K, IIRC), claiming that a specific mixture creates a crystalline structure which favors electron transfer ( not necessarily lower resistance as the total resistance is closer to gold)).

Gold became popular in the 70's because manufacturers were claiming that gold PLATING reduced surface tarnishing and corrosion and thus enhanced contact.

Also remember higher resistance may not necessarily be bad. A.J. VanDenhul uses carbon fiber conductors and check out the resistance of carbon fiber! This resistance is constant and thus a group delay is imposed on the entire signal, so in reality no real harm is done, at least not over short distances. Of course the couple thousand miles of transatlantic cable may be different and have different requirements. Most transatlantic cables do have booster amps embedded in their line however.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 12:30:55
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 Never seen a cable with a mix of pure gold strands and pure silver strands. All of these manufacturers - Siltech, Crystal, Mundorf - advertise a 1% gold 99% silver alloy, where the gold is "injected" in (obviously they are adding 1 gram of gold to every 99 grams of silver into a crucible, putting it into a furnace, then proceeding with casting and drawing). There are a few cables with pure gold wire and only gold (Pear Cable) but the silver/gold stuff is an alloy mixture.

Carbon cables baffle me. Sure, you can do it...but...why...
To be fair, I've never tried one.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 13:34:26
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
 Carbon cables - well they don't work as speaker or power cables (not surprisingly) but they can be very good for interconnects if implemented correctly. One thing is that carbon is immune from skin effect. Why? If you do the math you find that the skin depth for carbon is of the order of many inches (due to it's resistivity and permeability).

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 13:58:32
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Ahhh..haven't kept up with many of the manufacturers you list. I did try early Siltech which used a mixture of silver and gold strands however. Still have a couple of power cords.....

In their defense, I do not recall them ever claiming the gold lowered resistivity.

Most cable manufacturers check their cables for three parameters:

resistivity

inductance

capacitance

Of those three factors, I believe the last two are much more important sonically, and generally more due to wire configuration than to alloy composition. Since all wire contain a mixture of these three measurable parameters, often times the ratios of the mixture is the primary determinant of the end sound


Of course there are other factors, but that is another subject. Resistance is but one factor. The QSC amp manuals had a chart of the influence of resistance on power loss. It is surprisingly low unless you run very long distances ( OK, transatlantic cable runs certainly do qualify) or very small gauges

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 22, 2015 at 21:33:30
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 They don't put a lot on their websites. But there's been lots of reviews they've authorized saying that the use of gold alloy "enhanced conductivity."

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 24, 2015 at 01:15:33
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
 Mundorf think that SilverGold alloys are pretty good and even exceptional... Supreme SilverGold capacitors, SilverGold cables.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 24, 2015 at 04:59:30
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 It's worked pretty well for them. You can do anything you want as a business to reduce the electrical performance of a cable or part, then say that this modification increases the subjective benefits of the cable or part. The question is where does it end. The answer is putting photographs in your freezer to boost listening enjoyment.

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 24, 2015 at 11:34:08
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
 Silver and Gold are friendly oxidizing metals and perhaps as a SilverGold alloy remain quite linear, maybe... or the skin effect is quite good, maybe... or the dielectric effect is less, maybe... or perhaps Gold is toxic to Silver but peoples ears seem to like the the combination, maybe :) Definitely costs more and how does SilverGold sound. Best you buy some and tell us about it! If you can't afford the asking price then don't worry about it, hopefully someone else will and tell us all about :)

It is a bit like the resistor debate... carbon, tantalum, metal oxide, metal foil, bulk metal foil, nude, wire wound... which one to use and when!

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 25, 2015 at 16:47:19
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 silver, then gold have higher electromotive force effects over copper. That is with increasingly larger atoms, and valence shell they can release more electrons.

I've experimented with simply hanging a gold, say, ring on an IC end and you can hear a difference. You shouldn't hear any change in reality

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 26, 2015 at 01:37:27
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
 One problem with using gold-containing wire (or other gold parts) is that the gold can poison any solder joints and make them unreliable long term. I understand that NASA won't accept any gold or gold plated items that need soldering.

Also see this
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=326392&jid=MAM&volumeId=11&issueId=S02&aid=326391

 

RE: Gold toxic to silver?, posted on March 26, 2015 at 06:13:31
js101
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 22, 2015
 Very interesting paper.

That's a great idea with the gold rings. Have a girl over, impress her with your tweaked out stereo, and she won't even know you're married.

 

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