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Unbelievable:

174.68.76.189

Posted on February 19, 2015 at 01:11:02
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Just found out that a budget amp which is getting good reviews from its customer base and is something like 200+ @8ohms and has about a 400va transformer SHIPS with an 18g a power cord.
It helps a little that this amp is a MONOBLOC.

I'll be honest and disclose that in a recent UPGRADE cycle, I briefly considered 4 of these guys to biamp my panels.

When I questioned this choice, I was shot down. I mean REALLY. My table and stand LAMPS have 18ga or perhaps 16ga power cords.

When I suggested AT LEAST 14ga and no smaller than 16ga, one of the engineers entered the discussion and said that '18 was plenty'.

WOW!
Too much is never enough

 

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RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 06:06:00
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5570
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
December 29, 2003
Corporate bean counter types may be content that a cord conducts many times the value of a chosen fuse.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 06:38:50
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4279
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
It's interesting that years ago a very good review of a tube preamp that was bargain priced, opened with a comment on its thin AC cord(which was incorrect by the way). It almost destroyed the company which later became a significant manufacturer for over a decade.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 13:22:45
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
What is the budget amp that is getting good reviews.

If it is getting good reviews with an 18g PC then, I guess, maybe it can be even better.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:09:09
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
That was part of my contention and it got ZERO traction. When your speaker wire is of higher gauge than your Power Cord, I opin that means trouble.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:11:35
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 196
Joined: May 22, 2014
What is the budget amp that is getting good reviews?

 

You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:12:09
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
I have been working on a fairly new Rotel amp that I bought for next to nothing at a Goodwill store. It was dead, but I traced the problem to a relay in the remote on off circuit. It has a nice IEC input, but the wires in the relay circuit look like 22 ga. The wall power goes through these wires. I am considering bypassing the whole circuit. Inside, the amp looks very well designed and constructed (except for the fake heat sinks on the front), but it looks like the remote on off was designed by a different engineering team, who had no concern for how it sounds.

Dave

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:32:06
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Sounds like an RB-1070 which I learned really MEANT it when they failed to give it a 4ohm power rating.
The bridged power IMPLIED I think……180x2 @4 while the 8ohm power was listed as 125x2.
In any event it simply lacked the GUTS to drive my low sensitivity panels and was gone in 6 months.

And yes, if you can simplify the circuit while being rid of such CHEESEY wiring, I'm all for it.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:52:42
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
The Emotiva XPA-1L, which is a monbloc, with switchable 'high bias' class 'a' power to about 35watts. I think it lists for about 600$ a copy.
The amp weighs 35lb which is BARE MINIMUM for such output (250@8 and 2x into 4)

I was considering a QUAD of these for my panels before I snapped out of it and realized I'd need another several hundred dollars in ELECTRICIAN to install another dedicated circuit for a pair of 'em. And when I read it had an 18ga power cord? Add another 100+MINIMUM for some DIY or maybe MonoPrice (don't know how much those reallly are)

But the amp DOES get reasonable reviews from ALL users. There were some problems at initial release which were promptly addressed and its been smooth sailing ever since. If the amp will properly drive a highly reactive load, I'd see NO reason not to try it with even a pair of fairly demanding B&W or some Thiels. Or maybe even some 'Stats?


Too much is never enough

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 15:07:48
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
I think that would indeed be a good call to ditch the remote relay circuit and replace it with the best stranded copper hookup wire you have in your parts collection.

Please post the audible results in Tweaker's Asylum...

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 17:01:30
Mike B.
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Contributor
  Since:
September 1, 1999
A 6 foot or shorter 18 gauge power cord will run a 400va transformer providing it is ahead of a class A/B or D amplifier. I suspect it is built on a tight budget?



 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 19, 2015 at 17:27:52
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Yes, I suppose so.
Amp retails for 600$, IIRC. That's 1200$ a 'pair' for stereo.
A 'd' amp would be similar to an a/b IF it had a conventional PS, not a switcher. And 'd' amps get MOST of there vaunted high efficiency rating near the TOP of their power output spec. At lower powers, efficiency drops dramatically.

Somebody else here, mentioned 'beancounters'. I'm going to give 'em a 2x. I think an 18ga power cord to a power amp is nutty. This amp deserves AT LEAST 16ga and 14 would certainly be more like it. At least MATCH the gauge of the wire in the circuit used to FEED the amp. And for that matter, typical speaker wire. I wouldn't use 18ga SPEAKER wire for more than a 6" run.
Too much is never enough

 

My Experience, posted on February 20, 2015 at 07:15:22
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
and probably that of many here is good power cords improve the sound of any device. My CDP/DAC has a 20A IEC (which all gear should have IMO for its large contact surface and solid fit that won't easily come/fall off) and it uses 50 watts of AC power so less than an amp.

I understand the gauge v power consumption discussion and CLEARLY its money saving that those amps come with those cords. The sound change from different cords happens regardless of power consumption. My CJ MF-2100 came with a hard wired 18 gauge power cord. What a difference an upgrade made! (I put on an IEC, upgraded the wire from there to the power switch and added a good power cord net 10 gauge I think)

I used to think speaker cables and interconnects the most important. After many years and most of those w/ stock cords and reluctance to even try better power cords I now believe power cords most important.
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

It's Easy, posted on February 20, 2015 at 09:20:50
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
to look at their gear and want to try it. Good company, nice looking, great watts per dollar. My advice is buy an established brand used like a CJ or its little brother for a little less McCormack.


E
T

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 13:09:17
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Bingo! That is the amp. I think I would want something with better drive for Maggies. However, I think I paid either $20 or $30 for it, and the speakers I would use it with are very easy to drive. I want to use it in my music/home theater system in the living room. We will see. If I don't like it I can always sell it.

The plan is to first fix the relay. I need practice in this, because my HVAC and a lot of my home appliances use them. Then, if I like it or think it has potential, I bypass the remote on off. The actual amp circuitry is surprisingly good considering the price. It is all discrete with good parts quality.

Dave

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 13:14:42
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Hi Duster,

I am going de-solder the relay and clean it just for practice. If I decide the amp is a keeper, I will rewire. I enjoy working on this stuff. It is interesting to me how it functions.

Dave

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 22, 2015 at 12:49:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I just looked this up.
Rotel claims 330 x1 bridged @8ohms, which implies 165x2@8
Amp actually has higher rating @130x2 than my Parasound A23. BUT, when working into an actual speaker, the Parasound kicks the Rotel to the ground without breaking a sweat.

Be careful you don't bridge out a TIME DELAY relay. I simply don't remember, but if you press 'go' and it wakes up than clicks a couple seconds later, you may be dealing with a short time delay.

Socketing the relay for ease of removal / fix / or replace would be a reasonable fix, as well as maybe the increase in wire gauge you suggest.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 13:11:24
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
A number of things may not make sense to those who don't and won't consider thinking outside of the box. Some conventional thinking audio engineers may tend reject various audiophile notions based on a conservative belief system that rejects novel ideas, even concepts that have wide acceptance by end users for many years. The notion of audiophile power cords is still at the top of the list for many manufacturers, or so it seems.

The use of a large-gauge power cord for a high-current application is understandable, yet there is still a level of a mystery about the phenomenon of using a large-gauge power cord for a low-current demand device. While a typical digital transport might be the lowest current demand device within an audio system, many folks find that a very large gauge (such as 10 AWG or 9 AWG) power cord often performs the best with a digital transport. The same phenomenon obviously applies to other low-current demand devices as well, but the consistently better performance of a very large gauge power cord for a very low-current demand digital transport is one of the most mysterious power cord issues, IME.

The most interesting thing may be the effect of an audiophile power cord when placed on a turntable motor, which clearly seems to affect the performance of a phono-level signal. Regardless of whether or not the power cord is shielded, even the choice of AC connectors can make a big impact on the sound of a turntable.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 13:29:51
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
power cord construction seems to have a great ramification upon sonics, and gauges be damned sometimes.

I sincerely wish I understood all that goes on, but I don't.

The case is aptly illustrated with TT power cords. On an Linn LP 12 TT using a MIT Zcord certainly increase the bass, This sonic signature is also characteristic of the Z cord on electronics too, but why it should enhance the motor electronics is beyond me ( and I have tried many other power cords too, some bigger gauges, some the same).

Most EE types will claim that only inductance, resistance, and capacitance can make a difference. I can accept that, but certainly there are other gremlins in the cords.

DAletech seems to have resumed production of their low leakage power cords where they specify the amount of current bleeding through the insulation, a factor I have never ever seem listed for any audio type cords. Unfortunately they only make a 16 gauge in Euro color coding ( you know my aversion to black carbon based insulation). Still in the samples I have experimented, using them for digital and lower power draw components, they have been quite quiet with a lower noise floor.

Their secret is not concealed: the three conductors have four PE tubes interwound between them. I have seen similar construction in other power cords, not even labeled as low leakage.


Food for thought at any rate

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 14:43:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I've read where designers / engineering types have put HUGE power supplies (relative to deman) into stuff like preamps and other lower power gear. While my preamp MAY have something like a 30 to 50 VA transformer and appropriated sized caps and rectifier, it may benefit from maybe a 200VA transformer and being 'up-capped'.
Just a guess, but PERCEIVED benefit of MORE PS may continue to somewhere between 5x and 10x the calculated need. But that's just a sheer GUESS.

I'm not about to try THAT level of 'fix', but DO want a beefier power cord.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 14:48:09
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I guess I'll have to declare myself on a 'food for thought' diet, for the time being.
That being said, I WOULD like an upgraded power cord, consistent with the 3 given measurables.
BUT, I'm also on board with some dielectric effects which power cords SHARE with capacitors. I think some 'cross pollination' may be warranted.
I haven't gotten to the point of worry about Carbon in the insulation. Low leakage MAY gain some traction here.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 15:38:32
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
What is your budget level, required length, and particular make/model device you plan to use with the power cord?

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 22, 2015 at 16:29:40
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I have a PAIR of Parasound A23 which will be the FIRST to get new cordage.
I don't know what they are issued with, and I'm scared to LOOK.
I think a pair of 14ga would work fine. MAYBE 12ga, but certainly nothing more.

A post from Parasound indicates 16ga power cord.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: You'd be even more suprised if you looked under the hood ..., posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:13:17
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Thanks! Where would I get the sockets?

Dave

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 24, 2015 at 17:32:36
You have a trial period with Emotiva right?

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 25, 2015 at 11:29:25
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Amp(s) are Parasound A23 which come with 16ga standard cords.
The belden 19364 would appear to be a terrific way to go.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 25, 2015 at 14:04:44
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
Belden 19364 is a medium gauge 14 AWG shielded power cord that's more suitable for low-current digital source components rather than a high-current power amplifier which would be better served by an unshielded power cord of at least 12 AWG. Here's a link to a very inexpensive bulk power cord product I've considered evaluating but haven't got around to do, as of yet. It's a 12 AWG unshielded power cord design with a cotton filler and no rubber involved in the insulation and jacket. See link:

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 25, 2015 at 14:30:27
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
At 98 cents a foot, if it is only just decent, it is worth it.

Dave

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 25, 2015 at 20:28:36
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I'm going to try to avoid buying Chinese.

Not only that, but the amp I'm intended to re-cord is SHIPPED with 16ga. So an upgrade to 14 would be fine. Which is all code calls for on a 15amp circuit, anyway.

Belden 83803 is a 12ga cable, with TINNED individual strands. This is FAR more attractive and premium priced, and WORTH it to me to not end up with Chinese stuff. Marinco connectors should be fine, but I see some choices with Leviton and (brain glitch) which are hospital grade.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 26, 2015 at 07:39:15
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
The tin plated shielded Belden 83803 sounds very odd to my ear, with a very unnaturally bloated soundstage presentation. The only application it sounded good with was a turntable motor. If you want an American-made bulk power cable, the VH Audio Flavor power cable design is essentially a better sounding bare copper version of the Belden 83803. You should choose an unshielded Flavor 2 or Flavor 4 for use with power amplification since shielded power cords tend to restrict dynamics when used with power amplification.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 26, 2015 at 07:55:08
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
What is the Belden #?
One company advertises the 'ideal combination' of the 83803 / 19364 but don't give Belden's #.
It has the high wire count of the 19364 AND is tinned AND has the teflon insulation while being 12ga, Not the 14ga. They claim Belden Manufacture for this wire.

12ga for a TT motor sounds a little Mucho, especially given the STIFFNESS of the 12ga Belden and the possiblity of transmitting vibrations up/down such a cable.

Also, I note that there are SEVERAL sources for the Belden wire in the UK, but few on this side of the pond. A 'normal' electrical wiring house CAN get it, but wait 'till you get the BILL.

I'm probably going with the 14 ga. Expense is an issue and I have trouble with the mega-buck stuff.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on February 26, 2015 at 08:05:28
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
When it comes to audiophile applications, the decision of which power cord gauge to choose for a given application has little to do with current demand other than high-current applications are obviously better served by a large gauge design that also meets safety requirements. As for power cord stiffness, the IEC inlet for the turntable is mounted on the plinth with hookup wire routed to the motor, so there is no direct vibration transfer to the turntable motor. BTW, the maker of the very inexpensive bulk power cord I pointed to is from a company in Taiwan, not China if that matters. The new Wattgate EVO AU Gold AC connectors are manufactured in Taiwan, and the sonic signature is distinctively high performance in character. Perhaps the best sounding brass base metal AC connector design, IME. The particular Taiwanese bulk power cord product line also includes a very inexpensive 10 AWG version, so I'll likely try that too if I decide to evaluate the 12 AWG product, simply out of curiosity.

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on March 1, 2015 at 12:47:41
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
yes,
But, for those who are hung up on Break-In, you might not have enough TIME in the 30 day trial period to satisfy yourself if or if-NOT the gear in question will work for you.

30 days is 720 hours and some guys won't give up on break-in until 200+ hours, which is spending quite a bit of time.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Unbelievable:, posted on March 17, 2015 at 19:18:14
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
wow. unbelievable

Kind Regards


 

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