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More DIY silver foil speaker cables

72.82.235.8
Posted on January 18, 2015 at 09:27:14
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005









I finished up terminating and jacketing the DIY silver foil speaker cables previously posted to the URL below. The "spade" termination is a compression fit of 8 awg .999 silver round wire against four stacked and curled 1/4" wide .999 silver foil conductors. The copper collet is cannibalized from a solid copper spade. The Teflon wrapped bundle of conductors is snaked through a silk jacket for damping and a nice finished look.

This was a straight-forward project requiring only a bench grinder to put a flat on the round wire for a perfect fit into the copper collet.

The copper spades and silk jacket are from Chinese seller vt4c. He sells a lots nice things.

These cables are the endpoint for me.

Budget for four 7' cables:

Rio Grande:

120' .999 silver foil(25.2 oz.): $581.00
2' 8awg .999 round silver wire: $49.00

vt4c:

4 pair SPC-YA75C spades: $40
30' SILK-755: $96

Total: $766

 

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RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 18, 2015 at 09:47:42
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Nice Job!

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:14:41
tweakmenow
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: East Coast USA
Joined: March 26, 2012
 Similar to the classic Pavlov dog experiments, I start to salivate, BEFORE clicking on your post, due to your previous posts/projects! LOL

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 20, 2015 at 10:51:32
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 Thanks. The problem with some of these projects is that salivation resolves into drooling...

Regards,

Dave

 

Tempo Electric approach, posted on January 20, 2015 at 15:22:02
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 Dave, did you consider the approach of Tempo Electric where they utilize a round solid core silver wire in an oversized PTFE Teflon Jacket?

 

RE: Tempo Electric approach, posted on January 21, 2015 at 03:35:55
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 I spoke with Tempo and almost went that way. He his has the advantage of air dielectric, a fourth nine of purity, and easier to build; mine the advantage of reduced skin effect, higher total gauge of grouped conductors, and lower cost per AWG. I also liked that Allen Wright(of Cable Cookbook and other DIY fame) preferred silver foil.

 

Teflon Tape Wrapping, posted on January 21, 2015 at 05:53:30
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 Thank you for the input. Although I like the foil approach, hand wrapping them in Teflon Tape is a major task that I would like to avoid. So much so that I've tried sketching out designs for machine to do it.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 23, 2015 at 08:01:28
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 I understand the comments by another poster regarding buying used silver cables from “the Pros” but I also am appreciative of the bold DIY’er who takes the chance and puts out the expense to explore. So… thanks for sharing.
Having said that- here’s some critical comments/observations.

I never liked foil for superficial reasons. Always thought they looked gimmicky and unnatural. But, I have never heard them, so take this for what it’s worth. If I AB”D them in my system and heard better sound I would use them. Your justification for using is more valid than my reasons for not liking them.

Allen Wright is probably as good of a cable sherpa as anyone, and the cost/ gauge advantages are legit. I follow various “pro’s” and enthusiast as well . A few of the companies I look to, especially when it comes to silver, is Audio Note Kondo (along w AN UK) and Neotech. And I don’t see any foil in their repertoire.

I read the Tempo Electric site w great interest and think it is the best diy cable site dealing w silver cabling I’ve read. One nugget I took from the reading is from the GE engineer who stated that there were adverse “sonic anomalies caused by the interface of dissimilar metals.” If that’s true with the connectors on the speaker cable (or interconnect), then why wouldn’t be true with the binding post and the hook up wire connected to those post. Going back to Audio Note, the upgrade path for their speakers and amps are a lot about more and more silver. So, I would suggest to keep going with the silver. It’s not an expensive experiment as the runs are short and Chinese CMC post are relatively inexpensive. Upon good results, you could upgrade to higher performing connectors although I’m not sure what choices are out there for all silver post, etc…
Maybe expand on your solution

I mentioned this in another post, so sorry for the redundancy. Robert at http://www.liveacoustics.com.sg/upocc.htm in Singapore has a lot of experience w Silver DIY cable recipes and has recommended that higher gauge always sounds better (in the form of speed). High gauge silver gets very expensive but his method for mitigating that expense is to use copper for the return run. He also told me that sometimes the silver on the return sounds better, but you just have to experiment w it in your system and decide.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 23, 2015 at 11:38:38
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 Thanks for commenting and for the link to the silver binding posts. Silver posts are worth a try. I'm more inclined to test them on the Merlins than on my Pass monoblocks. These come stock with fancy ratcheting Furutech posts.

FWIW the finished aesthetic of a stack of narrow 1/4" foils is identical to a conventional round cable of modest 3/8" diameter-- no wide ribbons to step on or ruin décor.

I don't know everything about cable design, but I do know that the mark up for commercial cables(excepting Tempo) is generally much greater than for electronics and speakers-- at least 10x COGs. That translates this little project to at least $7K if offered commercially-- more if terminated with bona fide Oyaide or WBT silver spades. Most cable manufacturers simply can't find a market for a cable that costs 25 oz. of silver. Absent price no object, heavy gauge silver will by definition remain the province of DIYers.

Next step is cryo treatment.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 23, 2015 at 13:32:07
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 “I'm more inclined to test them on the Merlins than on my Pass monoblocks. These come stock with fancy ratcheting Furutech posts.”
Understandable. Messing w high dollar electronics is a little scary especially if warranties are involved.
“FWIW the finished aesthetic of a stack of narrow 1/4" foils is identical to a conventional round cable of modest 3/8" diameter-- no wide ribbons to step on or ruin décor.”

Yes I see that upon looking closer.

I wonder about the actual silver you’re using as compared to Neotech 7N UPOCC Silver wire. I also like the air dialectic strategy used by tempo electric and the possibility of a braid. But, as you stated, cost/gauge is probably in favor of the foil which might trump everything.

“I don't know everything about cable design, but I do know that the mark up for commercial cables(excepting Tempo) is generally much greater than for electronics and speakers-- at least 10x COGs. That translates this little project to at least $7K if offered commercially-- more if terminated with bona fide Oyaide or WBT silver spades. Most cable manufacturers simply can't find a market for a cable that costs 25 oz. of silver. Absent price no object, heavy gauge silver will by definition remain the province of DIYers.”

I couldn’t agree more. Just wish it was easier to experiment. Trading commercial wires in and out of the system is sooo easy. Maybe we need a silver wire society to try out each other DIY projects. Til then- keep posting!

 

"hand wrapping them in Teflon Tape is a major task", posted on January 23, 2015 at 17:13:08
Metralla
Audiophile

Posts: 7801
Location: San Jose, California
Joined: January 30, 2001
 I built my silver foil speaker cables that way, and it was not a major task at all. Then again, I had at one time built the full 27-pair Cat 5 braided cables, so mummy-wrapping the silver foils seemed like a doddle compared to that.


Regards,
Geoff

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 26, 2015 at 18:19:43
thebordas
 Very professional looking! What do you like about them ?

 

RE: "hand wrapping them in Teflon Tape is a major task", posted on January 27, 2015 at 10:19:13
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 Wondering if there is a better solution.

Two thoughts are a DIY versions of the Dueland silver foil in Silk/oil or Palladium plating

 

Zeus, posted on January 27, 2015 at 14:21:08
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 There is a PTFE and PET tubing supplier by the name of Zeus that makes the tubing in a flat version to reduce shipping costs. Takes a round shape when pressurized. Samples requested.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 31, 2015 at 14:46:12
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Silver and Copper oxidize like crazy.
How often do you DEoxidize your wire and more importantly, the connections / collars?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 31, 2015 at 16:31:20
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 As I understand it, silver tarnish is highly conductive-- possibly even more conductive than silver metal. With a compression fit between the silver spade and the silver foil stack, oxidation of the surrounding copper collet is irrelevant. I only chose this particular solid copper collet because the inner diameter was sufficiently large to accommodate the finished assembly of silver shank against 4-stack of silver foil, and the two grub screws ensured a secure fit.

Deoxidizing the un-plated solid copper Cardas binding posts on the Merlins is another matter. These need a cleaning every few months.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 31, 2015 at 18:30:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Getting a compression fitting to exclude oxygen is QUITE a trick. That would require a special press which exerts a LOT of pressure. I don't know that taking such a joint apart later is an option. I think Blue Jeans uses such a technology when they make cable connections.

You also know, of course, that Copper OXIDE is a semiconductor? At one point, like selenium, it was used as a rectifier.

For my .02$ I'm also careful about mixing metals, since they DO produce a minute current. Just like a thermocouple.

Silver tarnish is Silver Oxide.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 31, 2015 at 19:09:17
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 I operated on the assumption that signal will follow the path of least resistance between the silver-to-silver pressing. If this is not so, should I replace the copper collet with delrin or teflon? This could be easily fabricated, but to the degree possible I preferred that this cable recipe should incorporate off-the-shelf materials.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on January 31, 2015 at 19:38:08
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I just went back to the pictures you provided and see that the copper collar is just used to hold the flat silver to the piece of wire 'pressed' together.
In that case I don't suppose the material of the collar matters much, unless you go for some kind of vibration model and choose a material that won't stretch or get 'slack' under the pressures you subject it to. Those pieces of copper look pretty robust so I think they'll be pretty dimensionally stable. I'm very leery of material combinations and stuff that oxidizes.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on February 2, 2015 at 04:50:25
doglover1
Audiophile

Posts: 25
Location: southeastern US
Joined: May 14, 2010
 Really enjoyed reading about the construction of your foil cables. A couple of questions:

You have built them so the + and - runs are completely separate rather than layering + - + - . What was your reason for this? I thought that layering would reduce inductance, desirable in speaker cables.

Also, did you keep the + and - runs completely separate up to the speaker and, if so, what is the distance between them?

Thanks again for your post, it's got me thinking about building a pair.

 

RE: suggestion for a future project , posted on February 4, 2015 at 16:48:56
mcbuddah
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: June 8, 2012
 Kudos for getting your hands dirty in pursuit of better sound! My jones for silver ribbon speaker cables was satisfied about 2 years ago when I bought a used 1.5 m pair Ridge Street Audio Poeima ii biwire cables that had retailed for $2300 online for around $200. They are glorious, and I will never part with them. One of the things that make them so fine is that they are designed to sound best when there is no termination. They are about 1/2" wide ribbons and there is a 'U' shaped slot formed into the ends. They really love connecting to the Cardas Patented Binding Posts since they have a force vector straight down with no turning. I think you will get a much cleaner signal with a lot less work.

Good Luck with your work here.












Everything is going to the dogs

 

RE: suggestion for a future project , posted on February 5, 2015 at 02:57:50
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 I couldn't find silver foil wider than 1/4" for this project. Unfortunately that precluded an unterminated connection. My prior set of DIY copper foils was wide enough to take a 1/4" hole punch and bind directly to the Cardas clamping post. Since silver oxide conducts as well as silver metal, the silver-on-silver compression fit that I'm using with the DIY spade should perform about as well as an unterminated connection. The larger "problem" is that the bare copper version of the Cardas post employed by Merlin oxidizes quickly and requires frequent cleaning. I'd love to see a silver version from Cardas.

I share your enthusiasm for silver foils. Mine have improved steadily through 100 hours and are doing amazing things: fast clean transients, uncanny timbre, high resolution, but oh so smooth and inviting.

 

RE: More DIY silver foil speaker cables, posted on February 5, 2015 at 05:47:50
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003







So... if the current follows the path of least resistance, there are numerous compression clamps to consider. The application of paint might make the metal of the clamp even more electrically benign. You could also make a silver foil "sandwich" with wider foil on the "outside" of the joining cables.

 

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