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No review

108.249.169.177

Posted on July 1, 2014 at 21:32:17

ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003

I have had three Mad Scientist Audios The First power cords in my system for a week. I was going to do a complete review of these cables but seeing the abuse that Winston has taken from his review I have decided that my review would serve no purpose. I always thought that sharing our experiences about equipment and sound was what Audio Asylum was all about but I guess not. All I will say is that my system sounds better with these power cords.
Alan

Hide full thread outline!

fantja

09:23:20 07/04/14

I'm sorry to hear that

Jack G

05:16:53 07/03/14

You made the wrong decision

madisonears

21:19:09 07/02/14

...

Show full thread outline!

fantja

09:23:20 07/04/14

I'm sorry to hear that

Jack G

05:16:53 07/03/14

You made the wrong decision

madisonears

21:19:09 07/02/14

RE: You made the wrong decision

barondla

02:11:43 07/03/14

RE: You made the wrong decision

beautox

06:42:07 07/03/14

RE: You made the wrong decision

Ryelands

08:50:12 07/03/14

RE: You made the wrong decision

ahendler

22:39:13 07/02/14

RE: You made the wrong decision

Ubiquitous Biscuit

02:23:16 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

04:04:45 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

Ubiquitous Biscuit

10:37:51 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

12:32:57 07/04/14

axolotl

14:29:45 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

06:45:39 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

08:03:55 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

09:06:54 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

09:30:56 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

20:34:30 07/04/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

02:57:39 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

07:57:51 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

08:03:11 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

12:01:46 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

12:47:32 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

13:51:37 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

16:30:38 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

rick_m

17:52:53 07/05/14

RE: "power cords don't add distortion"

geoffkait

18:06:31 07/05/14

madisonears

10:57:51 07/03/14

so you make a call

unclestu

21:06:52 07/03/14

Power filtering reduces distortion

Ric Schultz

13:53:15 07/03/14

Excellent point

madisonears

19:08:36 07/03/14

Duster

19:35:10 07/02/14

The problem was Winstons behavior after the review. Challenging all comments was not wise

Elizabeth

15:58:58 07/02/14

unclestu

16:07:00 07/02/14

Mine is winging its way from New Zealand

Dave Pogue

10:56:44 07/02/14

Awe-d-o-file

10:36:12 07/02/14

rick_m

08:22:25 07/02/14

RE: Just do it!

beautox

14:30:58 07/02/14

rick_m

20:50:50 07/02/14

RE: Follow up..

beautox

23:31:10 07/02/14

RE: Follow up..

unclestu

21:07:13 07/02/14

RE: Follow up..

rick_m

22:23:09 07/02/14

RE: Follow up..

unclestu

21:18:23 07/03/14

RE: Follow up and differences MSA vs. VD or Luminous power cords

unchilled

17:56:05 07/06/14

RE: Follow up..

rick_m

22:11:35 07/03/14

RE: Just do it!

rick_m

17:07:40 07/02/14

mt10425

08:44:02 07/02/14

barondla

05:22:47 07/02/14

ahendler

07:54:29 07/02/14

barondla

17:56:14 07/02/14

mt10425

05:45:02 07/02/14

ahendler

08:01:00 07/02/14

mt10425

09:10:49 07/02/14

Ryelands

07:57:38 07/02/14

mt10425

08:03:57 07/02/14

That's a shame.

geoffkait

03:16:01 07/02/14

That's a shame., posted on July 2, 2014 at 03:16:01
geoffkait	I hate to judge too quickly before all the facts are in but it appears the local yokels might have scared off any enthusiasm with a campaign of fear and intimidation. A chilling comment on the times.

RE: No review, posted on July 2, 2014 at 05:22:47
barondla Audiophile Posts: 537 Location: midwest usa Joined: May 26, 2007	Bummer about the non review. So you are keeping them? Are they all 3ft long? I am working on ordering one. Might review it here. I think the originl review was a little over the top, but the reviewer didn't deserve the response he got.

So..., posted on July 2, 2014 at 05:45:02

mt10425
Audiophile

Posts: 2399
Location: 3 hours west of Chicago
Joined: January 23, 2004

are you saying all reviews should only accept positive supportive responses? If someone writes a less than positive review, should that post only accept responses that accept those that agree with that assessment? A review is an opinion based on any number of factors AND is specific to the system used. Your review and opinion has merit as does any dissenting opinion. Anyone who their spouts own opinion as some type of absolute truth is living in a fantasy universe. I hope you reconsider and not worry about defending your opinion. I hope it encourages others to try the cord. Just don't whine about some intimidation factor. Buck up.

Sorry about the placement of this post, it was directed to the OP.

"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

RE: No review, posted on July 2, 2014 at 07:54:29
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	I am Keeping them. They are 3 feet Alan

RE: So..., posted on July 2, 2014 at 07:57:38
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	Just don't whine about some intimidation factor. Buck up. The OP did not mention or even allude to "intimidation", only to hostile comments on the first review of the product that, in his opinion, made anything other than a general nod of approval pointless. As you'll recall, the comments were entirely from people who had neither seen nor heard the thing. I can see his point.

RE: So..., posted on July 2, 2014 at 08:01:00
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	I have no trouble with negative comments and other opinions about what I write. Over the years I have posted many reviews. I am just getting tired of the personal attacks that occur on this site more and more frequently. Alan

Okay, posted on July 2, 2014 at 08:03:57
mt10425 Audiophile Posts: 2399 Location: 3 hours west of Chicago Joined: January 23, 2004	Ignore and move on. There'll always be some benefit to some regardless of various dissention. "It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

Just do it!, posted on July 2, 2014 at 08:22:25

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

I'm actually having, er, odd results just using the samples on a power cord. An AAer whose opinions I trust has been posting that it may be possible to use too much (or is it too many?).

Regardless this is very interesting, sort of a mystery material that seems like it may have the potential to improve systems if applied correctly and yet "correctly" may vary between systems. To me, this smacks of truth from what I think I know about home-audio systems.

At this point I'm all for a whole slew of people applying them to different systems in different ways then observing the results and sharing them with the rest of us. The more data we have the better.

Ultimately understanding is driven by correlated measurements and theory but their precursor is to gather as much experiential data as you can and to hopefully form a mental image of the scope and magnitude of the issues. Those insights help to judge what might be worth measuring and ultimately whether the quantative understanding you develop appears sufficient to account for the bulk of the observations.

Observing, by the way usually needs to be learnt. Our natural tendency is to prematurely form unquestioned opinions regarding causation and never test them. That's why they are called unquestioned... The ability to "blank one's mind" is well worth developing for those to whom it doesn't come naturally. Biases, opinions, prejudices and experience can all be valuable time savers but it's critical to properly apprehend the problem first.

Bottom line of this diatribe is that the valuable data is: What did you do and what came of it? The whys and wherefores can come later.

OK? Now, let's see that review...

Regards, Rick

Nice job, posted on July 2, 2014 at 08:44:02
mt10425 Audiophile Posts: 2399 Location: 3 hours west of Chicago Joined: January 23, 2004	Let's hope for the review. "It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

I'm not a fan, posted on July 2, 2014 at 09:10:49
mt10425 Audiophile Posts: 2399 Location: 3 hours west of Chicago Joined: January 23, 2004	of personal attacks either. However, some misread any disagreement as a personal attack and respond as such. Aggressively defending one's position (when none is needed) is what causes these firestorms. Very few of us know each other personally and there are some very fragile egos. It doesn't take much to agitate these folks. "It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"

RE: No review, posted on July 2, 2014 at 10:36:12
Awe-d-o-file Dealer Posts: 21037 Location: 50 miles west of DC Joined: January 10, 2004	Good to know. When I have some spare $$$............. ET ET "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

Mine is winging its way from New Zealand, posted on July 2, 2014 at 10:56:44
Dave Pogue Audiophile Posts: 11689 Location: DC Area Joined: October 9, 2001	And I have to say, I think you have the right idea.

RE: Just do it!, posted on July 2, 2014 at 14:30:58
beautox Manufacturer Posts: 366 Location: New Plymouth Joined: July 9, 2013	Note: I've found that putting samples on power cords can sometimes improve things, but often has the opposite effect. The power cords position the devices in the right place with correct orientation, so they tend to be more reliable in their action.

The problem was Winstons behavior after the review. Challenging all comments was not wise, posted on July 2, 2014 at 15:58:58

Elizabeth

So it turned into a slugfest as Winston was critical in return to every comment. naturally that is going to turn into a bad situation.
If he would have just let most of the 'joke' nasty stuff go, no problem.
True i added my 2 cents to it all. but really they guy was not handling the issue well.

The second review went pretty well. The few negatives were ignored by the writer and it ended just fine. The op there was smart.

This IS a tough place. the moderators seem to let nearly anything fly without stepping in. Some other sites have very tight control and ANY direct negative comment gets the writer a week off. One 'learns fast' in that situation.
Here it is every person for themselves.. Like you are just shark bait.. So you have to walk carefully, or, like me, act like (almost) the biggest orca in the tank.

((LOL Please. Give me any excuse to bite you. just a little snip is all i want. So the blood fills the room.. What a tasty treat. Actually I am more like an Orca than a shark... I have feelings too.))

The problem, posted on July 2, 2014 at 16:07:00
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	is much more simple. Why bother to criticize when you have not even tried or used the product under review ? Most of the negative comments were made by members who had no experience with the product. It seems to me rather foolish to criticize an enthusiastic review when you have not even tried it, especially when the product is fairly inexpensive as far as audio[hile tweaks go ($139 !)

RE: Just do it!, posted on July 2, 2014 at 17:07:40

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"The power cords position the devices in the right place with correct orientation, so they tend to be more reliable in their action."

Well... Maybe mine's in the wrong spot. It's about 7in. from the socket and since I didn't have ready access to sockets I just whacked open a cable and soldered it back together after routing through the holes. Copper washers were also not around so I used some Cu tape. Seemed likely to be close enough to get a feel for the critter in this application.

The system I have it in has tough access to the back so it's hard to comfortably tinker. It was suggested to let it run for while and it's been in place for a few days now so probably about time to do some careful listening then yard it out and see what the reverse delta sounds like. Naturally the whole cord changes but the two sounded similar prior to modification.

It IS fun to have the samples to play with however it goes and also helps out society by keeping us old folks from wandering in the street... BTW, out of curiousity do you have any plans to electrically characterize your products? It's a strange feeling to be tinkering with a proverbial black box sans data sheets!

Regards, Rick

RE: No review, posted on July 2, 2014 at 17:56:14
barondla Audiophile Posts: 537 Location: midwest usa Joined: May 26, 2007	Thanks for the reply ahendler. After Mad Scientist promptly answered my email, I ordered a 6ft. First power cord. Added the extra price copper connectors. The connectors may not be that important, but I would worry about it if the cord is a keeper. Now waiting for the package to arrive.

RE: No review, posted on July 2, 2014 at 19:35:10

Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002

I hope the OP does not consider my commentary about the use of the term giant-killer as abusive, since it was not meant to be. Tolerating a post like mine should not have been so difficult, since it was no more confrontational than the usual disagreements that occur all the time within the various Audio Asylums, not just Cable Asylum.

An important factor is that it's just as important to moderate one's own responses to other posters who might offend you, as it is for the forum moderator to keep abusive posters in check. If a post seems inappropriate and/or offensive, use the [Alert Moderator] link located above the text area to describe a questionable situation for the moderator to consider taking action against.

In the meantime, post an honest review. I'll try to keep an eye out for hostile naysayers ;-D

Cheers, Duster

Follow up.., posted on July 2, 2014 at 20:50:50

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"Note: I've found that putting samples on power cords can sometimes improve things, but often has the opposite effect."

OK... Unfortunately that appears to be the case with mine. Bummer. Does this foretell similar results with the 'real' ones?

One last item that may mean something to you is that it seemed to pass through several stages over an uncertain time-frame of maybe a few hours, a couple days at most. Initially it (the system with the samples on the power cord) sounded a little bright but with good detail and "promise" for lack of a better word. And indeed it did get better for a few hours but by a day or so became unlistenable. Is that sort of variation over time normal?

Tnx Rick

NOTE TO OTHER FORUM MEMBERS...

I wouldn't normally post this via our forum but I think there is probably enough general interest in these devices to justify doing so. Please accept my apology if seems inappropriate to you. R.

RE: Follow up.., posted on July 2, 2014 at 21:07:13
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	I have posted on this before: the BD products need a break in time. In general a couple of hours at least. Curiously when it sounds horrible at first (bloated tubby bass)it breaks in to produce superior sound, at least IMHE. Of course YMMV n FWIW

You made the wrong decision, posted on July 2, 2014 at 21:19:09

madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006

Winston was not abused; he was criticized for posting a review that went beyond enthusiasm and had all the trappings of ad copy.

If you are using that as an excuse for not posting your own opinions, then perhaps you deserve abuse for being lazy or a wimp or a tease. No one should be criticized here for giving their opinion unless it crosses into unreasonable hyperbole. Additionally, I don't think it's appropriate for someone to post here that they have knowledge but we don't deserve to share it.

Nice to know that you like the cords and they make better sound. Perhaps you could elaborate just a little and we would find it informative, which would definitely serve a purpose. I'm happy you don't claim they perform miracles.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

RE: Follow up.., posted on July 2, 2014 at 22:23:09
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	Hi Stu, The cord has been connected for days with some run-time. The input voltage was applied continuously but during the Summer I've gotten into turning off the amplifiers when I'm not listening very much. I'm just using a sample rigged onto a power cord and from what Bob P. says that has turned out to be an iffy indicator of the results from the real filters. Best, Rick

RE: You made the wrong decision, posted on July 2, 2014 at 22:39:13

ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003

"Geez, you really jumped down the guy's throat. Maybe he's a shill, maybe not, but I don't think he deserves abuse." Tom you said this in response to a poast of Elizabeth in the original review of the power cord. but now if I decide to not post a review for reasons you think I might be using then I deserve abuse. Winston doesn't deserve to be abused even if he is a shill but I should be abused for not posting a review.
By the way a component can improve the sound if it performs better then the component it is replacing. If the original component adds distortion to the signal but the new component doesn't then distortion has been removed. Don't take this as abuse, just pointing out some facts.
I will post a review tomorrow. Hope you learn something.
Alan

RE: Follow up.., posted on July 2, 2014 at 23:31:10

beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013

I've not seen the kind of change you mention. They tend to take an hour of two to stabilize, but after that they don't change much. I think the problem with them on power cords can be that they can be sensitive to varying conditions, so maybe they sound OK when there is a benign RF environment, but fall apart when conditions get worse. (just a guess..). But you're not the first to note that they don't always sound good on power cords. Perhaps you could email me a pic of the way they are set up - it's hard to know exactly how you have them.

RE: You made the wrong decision, posted on July 3, 2014 at 02:11:43
barondla Audiophile Posts: 537 Location: midwest usa Joined: May 26, 2007	No one deserves abuse - for any reason. Ever. Looking forward to the review from ahender, and to my cord arriving. Someone mentioned the things interacting with each other. Not sure if they meant the add on BD parts or the PCs. If it is the PCs, that is a little worrisome.

I'm sorry to hear that, posted on July 3, 2014 at 05:16:53
Jack G Audiophile Posts: 9740 Joined: September 24, 1999	I've always enjoyed reading your posts. Jack

RE: You made the wrong decision, posted on July 3, 2014 at 06:42:07
beautox Manufacturer Posts: 366 Location: New Plymouth Joined: July 9, 2013	I don't think the PCs interact particularly. I use on all components with no problem. But with black discus you need to experiment - some places work, some don't.

RE: You made the wrong decision, posted on July 3, 2014 at 08:50:12

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

I don't think the PCs interact particularly.

I don't want to be awkward but, for whatever reason, my finding is that two or more MSA cables in close proximity can degrade the sound compared to one lead on its own. At least in my system, curing the problem was simply a matter of experimenting with how they were dressed, i.e. ensuring that they lie some distance apart.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I assumed the issue had a similar cause to the case where, as the MSA web site puts it, "If you put more [kegs] on, you get worse sound, less balanced." I had already tried extra kegs on what was then known as a PP+ and found that the sound became shrill.

Inmates concerned that they have perhaps ordered too many MSA PCs need not, in my view, worry. I'd suggest adding leads one at a time over a day or two so you can hear whether the extra lead makes things better or worse. If the latter, do not despair, just experiment a bit. You'll get there.

I now have an MSA device on the PC for every device in my audio system except for a self-powered USB-to-I2S board. That had been using a lead made with three kegs I'd pulled from an experimental PP++ but I converted it to battery power so I could release the kegs to make a PC for my TV. The effect on that is a sharper image and increased colour saturation. (Well worth the modest cost - I can almost read the makers name on Tim Howard's shirt.)

In passing, though my setup is not as elaborate as many power-conditioning-wise, I do have two dedicated "clean" outlets, one for digital and one for analogue. Both are fitted with pro-audio mains filters and are, by chance, close to the main board and thus (presumably) of lower impedance than a typical UK ring main. MSA PCs nevertheless make a very marked difference to SQ.

If the above amounts to a mini-review, so be it.

Good call, posted on July 3, 2014 at 10:57:51

madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006

I wrote "PERHAPS you deserve abuse" and I meant it in a sort of jocular way to goad you into producing your own review. Sorry you took offense. Wow, I guess you really paid attention to that previous thread. I was not trying to abuse Winston, and it's true that I don't think he deserved it. I found some others' posts to be unnecessarily cruel and crude, but that's an issue I'd rather not pursue.

Yes, of course a better device might avoid distortion caused by a lesser device it replaces, but no device can REMOVE distortion. No magic crystals, no purified copper wires, no number of kegs (whatever those are), can improve a signal. That seemed to be what Winston was claiming, and the snake oil approach is what set me off. I did not dispute his overall favorable impression of the cords, but only the exaggerated properties he assigned to them. It would be quite foolish, as many others have needlessly pointed out here and elsewhere, to argue against a product one has not personally auditioned.

Looking forward to your review, so long as it doesn't state that these cords make awful recordings sound wonderful. Even mad scientists cannot find a way to do that, especially with just a power cord. I won't argue that it can't make a system sound better, but no one should claim that it can fix something that's already broken.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

Power filtering reduces distortion, posted on July 3, 2014 at 13:53:15

Ric Schultz
Manufacturer

Posts: 844
Joined: August 7, 2000

The power coming down the AC line is suppose to be either 50 or 60 cycles. It is not suppose to have RF and noise riding along with it. We know, if fact, that there is noise on the AC line. All noise is distortion...distortion is a form of noise....either measured or noticed with our ears. This is the whole purpose of line conditioning....to remove the noise and distortion. The MSA power cords are power line conditioners built into a power cord. What people are describing is a lowering of noise (distortion). If you do not filter it then it gets amplified and radiated by the components down stream....and....into your ears.

So, a power line conditioner or in this case a power cord with a line conditioner built in can lower noise and DISTORTION. This is not snake oil talk.

Excellent point, posted on July 3, 2014 at 19:08:36

madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006

Granted there can be noise on the AC line. I would agree that, if not removed, the noise can be amplified and will degrade the sound. I disagree that all noise is distortion, except in the very broadest sense of being an unwanted addition to the original signal. The two are measured and quantified separately. Noise is certainly not wanted, but that doesn't make it distortion. I maintain that there is not a device that will reduce distortion present in a musical signal without affecting the signal.

If a filter removes noise from the AC line, it probably will make your system sound better, or at least different. Conversely, I have heard a power filter, quite expensive and bulky, suck the air and life out of a system, and I didn't care a whit whether it removed noise or not. I am not aware that there is any type of filter that will make a bad recording sound good, which is what the original review claimed. If a recording sounds bad simply because of noise on the line, you've got bigger problems than power cords.

I recognize that you're pretty far ahead of me in technical knowledge, and I appreciate your insightful contribution to the discussion. I restate that I believe power cords will change the sound of most components, but they cannot make miraculous improvements to bad recordings. That's the snake oil part.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

so you make a call, posted on July 3, 2014 at 21:06:52
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	not even knowing what the hell you are talking about....not very wise in my opinion, but then that's only my opinion.

RE: Follow up.., posted on July 3, 2014 at 21:18:23

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

To be honest, Bob and I have had differing opinions in the year or so I have been a dealer. Differing components, different tastes, different sound rooms all contribute to differences in sound preferences. That is norma and to be expected as Nothing is perfect and everyone is an expert on his particular tastes.

Still, Bob has shown a willingness to work with me and modify and experiment based on my own experiences which I communicate freely with him. Of course, he has rejected many of my suggestions but then has also incorporated a few. For an inventor I believe that shows remarkable open mindedness and it certainly means that the ego aspect is a bit more subdued in Bob than in some other designers I have had the opportunity to work with, a trait I value extremely highly.

The break in aspect is one such thing. I find I need a couple of hours on many BD products. Bob is puzzled and says he does not hear any such radical changes as I have experienced. I do have one advantage over Bob though, I run a little shop so my exposure to miscellaneous components is far greater than what Bob can experience.

Again YMMV and FWIW

RE: Follow up.., posted on July 3, 2014 at 22:11:35

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"I find I need a couple of hours on many BD products."

I hear you. I actually think mine sounded a little harsh at first then improved after a couple of hours to rather nice. But the next day, not so nice. Something along that line.

Peculiar. But those can be the most interesting sorts of things especially if some horrid deadline does not hang in the balance.

If I find anything interesting I'll let you guys know. I think my power amp. is the only piece of audio gear that uses that connector and a lot of my stuff is so old that it has fixed cords. I guess I could try it on my scope... Actually that might really be interesting. Anyway this is more fun than firecrackers and easier on my hearing, but I hear a bunch of my neighbors tuning theirs up for tomorrow as I peck.

Happy almost 4th, Rick

RE: You made the wrong decision, posted on July 4, 2014 at 02:23:16
Ubiquitous Biscuit Audiophile Posts: 141 Joined: November 2, 2013	Power cords don't add distortion.

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 04:04:45

As fate would have it, power cords add quite a lot of distortion, actually noise and distortion, some power cords more than others, but they all do. One of the primary culprits is the distortion produced by the self induced magnetic field produced by current flowing through the cord as it interacts with the AC signal.

"It looks like the self destruct bottom just blew itself up." On board the B-52 in Dr. Strangelove

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 06:45:39
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	"One of the primary culprits is the distortion produced by the self induced magnetic field produced by current flowing through the cord as it interacts with the AC signal." Oh please professor, tells us more about this wondrous weirdness... How do it distort? Just knowing what you are thinking of when you write "AC signal" would help. Acolyte Rick

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 08:03:55
geoffkait	Good reaction. Why does the magnetism hurt the sound, grasshopper? For the same reason that the (magnetic) breaker panel door hurts the sound. For the same reason audio transformers hurt the sound. Ain't electricity mysterious?

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 09:06:54

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"Good reaction."

Thanks.

"For the same reason that the (magnetic) breaker panel door hurts the sound."

What? You don't care for the Phasy sound of Eddy and the Currents?

Actually I didn't know they did but then I think my breakers are just thermal. If these things are very serious issues that speaks poorly of the PSRR is in home audio... Which, sadly, wouldn't be exactly news...

Happy fourth! Remember ears prefer beers to bangs.

Rick

RE: No review, posted on July 4, 2014 at 09:23:20
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15524 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	Alan, I would be interested in your review and thoughts on these pc(s). Go ahead and post.

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 09:30:56
geoffkait	You wrote, "What? You don't care for the Phasy sound of Eddy and the Currents? Actually I didn't know they did but then I think my breakers are just thermal. If these things are very serious issues that speaks poorly of the PSRR is in home audio... Which, sadly, wouldn't be exactly news..." You're breakers are thermal? Are the wires coming into the breakers and leaving them thermal, too? ;-)

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 10:37:51
Ubiquitous Biscuit Audiophile Posts: 141 Joined: November 2, 2013	Sorry, Geoff. They don't add distortion. Electrical theory 101.

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 12:32:57
geoffkait	Spoken like a true music major.

Gotta admit..., posted on July 4, 2014 at 14:29:45
axolotl Audiophile Posts: 3955 Location: So. California Joined: September 10, 2002	that retort made me chuckle. No offense to the OP (other poster) intended. axolotl

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 4, 2014 at 20:34:30

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"Are the wires coming into the breakers and leaving them thermal, too? ;-)"

Sure, I just loosen the screws a little...

Seriously, I've never paid a bit of attention to the loop areas, or their positioning and such, it's just however the electrician(s) happened to do it. If there happens to be enough slack I could do an optimizing pass for the stereo circuit.

Have you actually experienced positive results by doing such things? I don't mean in theory, I mean in terms of readily hearable differences.

Tnx, Rick

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 02:57:39

You wrote,

"Have you actually experienced positive results by doing such things? I don't mean in theory, I mean in terms of readily hearable differences."

Gosh, I always thought you were the theory guy and I was the application guy all these years. Do you mean to sit there and tell me you never wrapped your transformer in mu metal or opened the door of your breaker panel box, or demagnetized your CDs and interconnects, you know, just to see the effect of magnetism on the sound? Color me shocked. Of course, I've experienced positive results by doing such things. Now get up off that lounge chair and do such things!

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 07:57:51

rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005

"opened the door of your breaker panel box"

LOL! Of COURSE I've never opened the panel door' How could I? It's never been closed... I store my ladders propped in front of it and couldn't reach the breakers through them if the door was shut!

Maybe there's a larger, manly principle involved here: sloppy garages make for better sound.

So let me ask you one: Have you tried just taking off the front panel? That should open up the magnetic circuit for several of the current loops. Just askin', not that I would ever suggest doing something so risqu�...

If there is enough slack maybe I could reroute the grounds of the stereo circuit nearer the input bus also. Hmmm

"I always thought you were the theory guy". I is! I know more about eddy currents than the McKenzie R. does...

Rick

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 08:03:11
geoffkait	Did I ever take off the door on the breaker panel? What do you think? You think these hands have been soaking in Ivory Liquid?

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 12:01:46
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	Not the door, have you ever tried removing the front panel itself which would take the door along with it? Along with all the steel between the breakers. Just curious, I'm not advocating such a thing of course... Rick

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 12:47:32
geoffkait	I have a non magnetic frame and non magnetic door. There are a number of, uh, treatments inside around the romex and breakers as well, you know, unmentionables.

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 13:51:37
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	"I have a non magnetic frame and non magnetic door. There are a number of, uh, treatments inside around the romex and breakers as well, you know, unmentionables." COOL!.... Aluminum? Is the main box still steel? Custom? Stock? Home-brew? Enough questions? Maybe just one more: Of what ilk was the main noticable sonic difference? Tnx, R.

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 16:30:38
geoffkait	Sorry, but that's classified. Less distortion. :-)

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 17:52:53
rick_m Audiophile Posts: 6230 Location: Oregon Joined: August 11, 2005	"Sorry, but that's classified." Bummer, you reverted. Oh well... Rick

RE: "power cords don't add distortion", posted on July 5, 2014 at 18:06:31
geoffkait	Loose lips sink ships. Old audiophile axiom.

RE: Follow up and differences MSA vs. VD or Luminous power cords, posted on July 6, 2014 at 17:56:05

unchilled
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: So.Cal.
Joined: August 11, 2002

Hi,
Curious how the MSA cords differ soundwise from Virtual Dynamics or the Luminous Mega-Lynx, which IIRC also use magnets. My system includes an Exactpower EP15A AC regenerator, and I was initially surprised (!) that the power cord from wall to the Exactpower had an easily heard effect on resulting sound of Arcam FMJ36 CD player, (ca. 1990) Merrill turntable and Gill Alana preamp plugged into it. Now using a Triode Wire 8+ on the Exactpower and a variety of power cords (Aargh!!) on the other components -- Omegra Mikro on CD player (that was a splurge...), and Mojo Enigma with Furutech FI-15 plugs on the preamp. Other power cords available include the WyWires (which, while good, can be a bit "midrange-y" with certain components), and a TELwire 14 ga (which was excellent with a Vacuum State FVP5, but reticent in dynamics with my other components.)
BTW, does the MSA cord need to be a goodly distance away from an MC step-up transformer?
The positive review by "Ozzyboy" has me interested. Do you think a Neo to the Exactpower +/- a "First" to preamp would be worthwhile?
Thanks and happy listening,
Harvey (in Los Angeles)

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