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Class D

184.145.42.92

Posted on December 19, 2016 at 15:57:06
goldenthal
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Can anyone instruct me: Is the noise generated by class d air-borne or line-borne or both?

Does that remain a live issue, or have manufacturers learned to filter out such noise?

Does class d ever get used in any lower-level spots than amplifiers (e.g., pre-amps) and, if so, why?


Thanks,


Jeremy

 

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RE: Class D, posted on December 19, 2016 at 19:16:12
JURB
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Class D is generally only used in power amps because that is where it'll do the most good. The efficiency is much better and the whole thing is lighter with less heat sinking required.

Couple that with a switched mode power supply and you can have many watts that will fit in the palm of your hand. Look up "Icepower", they are made by B&O. Eventually financial and environmental constraints are going to make such designs more common, but the one big drawback is that they are practically unrepairable. Imagine buying a car and when it gets a flat tire you have to buy a new car, that is where it is going. (in fact with those skinny wheels it really is, hitting a bump can crack the rim and there goes $600 or maybe even more)

Like a SMPS works by varying the on time of a transistor instead of controlling it variably, it dissipates virtually (ideally) no power. Like a light switch in your house, when it is on there is current but no voltage, when it is off there is voltage but no current. Power is the product of volts and amps so it is a multiply by zero, thus no heat is generated. In fact if you have light dimmers they turn on and off very fast, they don't really vary the power, they interrupt it at a controlled rate. An incandescent lamp filament or the persistence of vision in your eyes will schmooze that out, though some people can see the flicker.

Well a class D amp does pretty much the same thing but they generally chop it up at like 100 KHz, not 60 Hz like a light dimmer. This gives them pretty accurate control of the output by varying the duty cycle of the positive and negative outputs. This results in full blown AC, in square waves which needs to be filtered out.

The design of that filter is one of the crucial things. Some want to filter very well and there will be phase shift at the high end. You are not supposed to be able to hear that but that doesn't mean it is not there.

Years ago a line of hearing aids came out that used AC bias at a high frequency. It was observed that the hard of hearing actually heard better in the vicinity of ultrasonic motion detectors. I am not sure if they still sell them but the point is even though they could not hear the sound per se, it was still there. It had a noticeable effect.

Problem with class D is the filter. If they get the switching frequency up to like 1 MHz this will no longer be a problem. However that poses its own set of difficulties. When you get to swinging all that voltage that fast there are what's called dv/dt problems, and if you use MOSFETs, they turn on faster than they turn off. You don't want that. With bipolar, the drive requirements become significant. It is not all that practical.

So if you switch at 100 Khz that is only five times the 20 KHZ you want to accurately reproduce. People say the sound is not quantized but I say it is, but only on one axis. The voltage is not quantized but it is still a little sample of time.

It has been found that some class D amps put out as much as a volt and a half of their switching frequency at idle. Not sure which but it was maybe a post here or at AK or maybe on Usenet. The guy was asking if it was normal. I didn't respond because I would need more direct knowledge. I doubt it was a Crown, which has their own little special design that is supposed to be even more efficient. But some people don't like them either, except maybe the DC-150s and whatever. (not class D)

These days, in TV sets, low power amplification for some small speakers inside the cabinet, they don't even use a filter, rather depending on the inductance of the speakers to provide the filtering. You can't even take one apart and hook up external speaker wires to it, or run them to an amp.

Most people here will agree that class D does not belong in high end audio. But I do believe that we are going to see more of it in mid-fi and whatever. Energy becoming the new currency will dictate that, and really, 75 % of the people will not notice a damn thing. And really, if you are talking battery powered stuff, what, outside by the grill or in your car ? Why not ? A garage stereo or some type of boombox ?

Oh, and I can't stand those new boomboxes. I want one made like in the 1970s. New ones are all chrome n shit, "beauty rings", one note bass. I remember a few that used to sound pretty good. And those could do with a class D amp because they weren't really hifi. They were like utility-fi.

I haven't worked on a boombox in a long time but I would bet that some of them have class D in them. And I found class D in pro audio equipment. But pro audio is by no means hifi.

This is similar to the argument about audio formats. Sure, you get the sampling (switching) rate up high enough that the golden ears either can't hear the difference or even like it, then you have accomplished something. Until then as long as you got the switch and they sit in the chair and can accurately tell you which is which, they are not going to accept it.

But then this is like a hobby. It is like driving around in a car with a bigblock V8. You don't take that thing to work. (unless you got secured parking) It will probably be some time before the audiophiles accept class D in their listening environment, but in the cars and bars, and outside cooking the steaks, or in the garage burning one, it will be fine.

Just my considered opinion.

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 19, 2016 at 19:33:51
JURB
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"Can anyone instruct me: Is the noise generated by class d air-borne or line-borne or both?"

Both. Those little filter coils DO make some noise though it is above 20 KHz. And there is always residual noise on the speaker lines. But they got it down to a tolerable level.

 

Good questions with some logical answers...., posted on December 19, 2016 at 19:49:25
AbeCollins
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Can anyone instruct me: Is the noise generated by class d air-borne or line-borne or both?

Both, but manufacturers have done a lot to help minimize but not completely eliminate it.

Does class d ever get used in any lower-level spots than amplifiers (e.g., pre-amps) and, if so, why?

Not that I'm aware of. The questions should be, is Class D ever used in components other than power amps? Are they ever used in components like preamps? If not why not?

The short answer is because there is no reason to use Class D where high power (or energy efficiency) is not needed, and Class A is superior. I don't know of any preamps that use Class D. Most are Class A. If Class D were superior wouldn't we see it adapted for preamps too? Oh I almost forgot. Preamps live in a world of very low-level signals. Class D would be too noisy and complex. No one wants a noisy complex preamp!

Class D was originally developed for efficiency both in terms of energy efficiency and cost.... think car audio power amps, subwoofer amps, etc. We even see Class D amps used in smartphones because they are cheap and energy efficient. How does your smartphone sound? ;-)

But leave it to some power amp manufacturers in the audiophile market to forget the cost efficiency part of the Class D picture. Instead, they use low-cost efficient design but charge stratospheric 'audiophile prices'. Double goodie! Low cost to manufacture AND higher profit margins, especially if they put a pretty face plate on it to make it appear luxurious. Not all Class D amp makers are so bold but some sprinkle special fairy dust and marketing spin on theirs to justify charging a LOT more.

My 2-cents worth sure to ruffle some feathers. It's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it. ;-)



 

RE: Class D, posted on December 20, 2016 at 09:22:29
Posts: 1628
Location: South Central Coast, California
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"Most people here will agree that class D does not belong in high end audio."
I don't think most people here would agree that Class D amps by Jeff Rowland or John Stronczer (Bel Canto), etc. are "mid-fi" but it depends on what your definition of "high end audio" is..

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 20, 2016 at 09:49:00
mkuller
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...I auditioned a couple pair of high end class D amps last year (one pair retailed for $12k) and I was disappointed.

I'm sure there are some musical ones out there according to the reviews I've read but matching an amp to your speakers is still one of the most important aspects of putting a system together.

 

Even..., posted on December 20, 2016 at 09:58:11
E-Stat
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Does class d ever get used in any lower-level spots than amplifiers (e.g., pre-amps)

Class D guru Bruno Putzeys uses class A with his preamp because it is inherently superior - not requiring copious amounts of "corrective" feedback and where "efficiency" is largely irrelevant.

Mola Mola Makua

 

The Devialet 400 mono integrated..., posted on December 20, 2016 at 12:47:14
kootenay
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amplifier-dacs that drove a pair of KEF Blade speakers at my friend's listening room sounded like music to my ears.

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on December 20, 2016 at 14:55:32
goldenthal
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I ask because of subwoofing interest. I currently use the woofer sections (only) of 2 McIntosh ML 1c speakers. These are connected to their own 250w/ch ss class ab amp from a y-connected pre-amp (the other leg going to my maim amps) through a Velodyne SMS. They reinforce the bottom octave pretty well, but I fantasize about better/more.

My tech reacts to my system with, "Why don't you get a modern powered sub that sets up everything for you?" to which I reply, "Well, but you keep telling me [he does] that class d emits noise, and all these modern powered subs use class d," to which he shrugs. So I wondered -- if the noise is line-borne, it ought to be filterable (but I take the point below about phase shift). If it's air-borne, that might be more difficult/expensive to block.

And I still lean toward passive subs, external class ab amps, and more SMSs (or similar), but I wonder if I've analyzed correctly.


Again, many thanks.


Jeremy

 

Rythmic, posted on December 20, 2016 at 15:03:07
G Squared
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Great performance
Great value
Class D or AB
Gsquared

 

RE: Phase Shift, posted on December 20, 2016 at 15:07:57
goldenthal
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Thank you, JURB.

I have actually heard high-frequency phase shift! (I use an exclamation mark because I cannot always hear/identify phenomena heard by others.) Years ago a friend was working on my Nakamichi cassette deck. As he got the heads into better alignment, the sound quality improved -- the treble became less "homogenized", an effect that tracked the reduction in phase shift on his oscilloscope. Phase shift is real and, to me, audible!


Jeremy

 

RE: Rythmic, posted on December 20, 2016 at 15:09:54
goldenthal
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Thanks, G Squared; I'll have a look.


Jeremy

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on December 20, 2016 at 16:48:37
JURB
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"My tech reacts to my system with, "Why don't you get a modern powered sub that sets up everything for you?" to which I reply, "Well, but you keep telling me [he does] that class d emits noise, and all these modern powered subs use class d," to which he shrugs."

When only used for subs it is not so bad because they can't even begin to reproduce it. However I would keep those speaker wires away from your signal cables. Note that I am no "audiophool" AT ALL. I know electronics and am very pragmatic about it. I would almost say to use greenfield for the speaker wires but I think that is overkill. (greenfield is a loaded flexible metal conduit, called greenfield by electricians because it does not provide a legal ground and therefore needs a green wire, so it has white, black and green, and I would connect the speaker end of the green wire firmly to the greenfield) Still overkill. You could take small inductors (in value, not guage) in series with the speaker leads right at the amp as well, in fact those big huge ferrite beads might even work.

If you are worried about EMI or RFI disturbing your system you could place the amps right near the subs. That should minimize it though it makes for a different set of wiring problems. There are reasons that you might want to leave a class AB amp running all the time, in fact I do it sometimes. The bias is all settled, it sounds good, sure. But there will be no difference with a class D, they sound the same almost no matter what. Well temperaturewise anyway. Loads can definitely affect them and sometime in not so good ways. But you gain nothing by leaving them on all the time except for eating the lead free solder off of the output filter components and risking a failure due to the ensuing instability.

Also beware of the power handling of the subs. I know a guy hooked up a QSC in bridged mode which made 1,300 watts and the speaker caught on fire. Literally. But then there is another thing, as you make the cone move more you are going to get more odd order distortion. Even if they have the magnetic field perfect (which they don't) the suspension starts causing it, or breaking. I tore the rubber right off a sub with the old Flame Linear a year or so ago. Damn thing still sounded good up until then. Maybe it had something to do with that 1,000:1 damping factor. lol

So if you want more, you might want to look into more subs if you have the room. The problem is placing and phasing them right.

 

Too much noise?, posted on December 20, 2016 at 18:41:51
Kal Rubinson
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Modern Class D amps do not throw significant noise back on the line (which can be blocked if necessary) nor do they radiate any significant noise into the room. For subwoofing, they are ideal and, if you don't trust the plate amps that are built into subs, there are really good separates ones.

And, if you go to some real subwoofers, there are better options than the SMS.

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 20, 2016 at 19:14:06
goldenthal
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Thanks, Kal.

I have followed you re the DEQX Pre-Mate, a bit reluctant because of the complexity(I am an old guy). Still, I edge closer with time, and maybe they'll make it a bit simpler by the time I decide. As for "real" subwoofers, I keep looking. That I have a surplus of amplification and 2 SMSs still draws me toward passives, but there are few, and they are seldom reviewed.

I asked about class d because most recently I read a review of the new SVS 16-inch ported sub & thought of asking them to custom-make a passive, but then realized that that sub is normally equipped with an over-kilowatt class d amp as are those from JL and Velodyne. Not sure how to get that kind of power from class ab amps, I circled round to wondering about "modern powered subs" again and whether they'd "pollute" my sound because of the switching. I take it your answer is "no" or at least "likely not".


Jeremy

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on December 20, 2016 at 19:16:27
AbeCollins
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Class D is well suited for subwoofer duty. EMI/RFI is not normally a problem in an audio only setup. You don't "hear it". However, if you listen to AM/FM radio or even over the air TV, I would proceed with caution. One audiophile brand of Class D amp that I owned many years ago were pretty decent sounding BUT... whenever I had them turned ON they even messed with a couple CableTV channels (probably because the CableTV box was in the same rack as the Class D monoblocks). The RFI was being radiated from the Class D amp speaker cables.

Good luck!



 

RE: Class D, posted on December 20, 2016 at 19:25:13
goldenthal
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Thank you, Abe. In fact, fm radio and tv are both played in my room. Fm is via antenna, and I am looking to put up a tower for locally available tv. When the material warrants (infrequently), I watch tv movies using my audio system instead of the tv's speakers.


Jeremy

 

Exactly. (NT), posted on December 20, 2016 at 20:32:31
Kal Rubinson
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Thanks good explanation, posted on December 21, 2016 at 07:06:42
airtime
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A good read thank you

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 21, 2016 at 08:26:20
A.Wayne
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I had one of those modern marvels go into oscillation after disconnecting the speaker wire to the tweeters. Surprisingly , class-D is inferior to a/ab and class-A significantly in the Bass, if you have ever used a good A. A/AB amp on your bass you will never use class-D as a substitute.

Aside current class-D sub amps are packed with features not readily available as a package in standard electronic xovers, there maybe some advantage here and i have heard them sound "good " in certain applications, so there is merit in using Class-D designs ..


Regards..

 

Good response., posted on December 21, 2016 at 15:40:06
ppopp
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Interesting stuff

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 21, 2016 at 17:06:26
Kal Rubinson
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From your statement, I do not know what the particular amp was nor how it was being used.

My experience with more than a half dozen built-in Class D subwoofer amps over more than 10 years has been with incident; the only unstable oscillatory behavior I have had was due to a faulty internal power supply wire.

My experience with stand-alone Class D goes back to the old Tri-Path amps which sounded better than I expected through ICE-Power amps to current designs including the nCore-based ones. A total of about a dozen. None have ever misbehaved and have progressively improved to the point where, today, they are competitive with A/B amps.

If you don't like 'em, OK.

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 21, 2016 at 18:33:16
pictureguy
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Using my All-Band portable radio for a detector, I actually find my PLASMA TV to be a far worse radiator of RFI / Hash than my sub with its 'D' amp.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 21, 2016 at 19:18:43
goldenthal
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Still using CRTs. But I infer that plasma is now over?


Jeremy

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 21, 2016 at 20:01:27
pictureguy
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Yes, I'm thinking Plasma is 'history' now.

While Plasma IS better than most LCD/LED sets of the same time, the problem is that I don't think Plasma was adaptable to the new 4k resolution.
First Pioneer, with the ground AND wallet busting KURO sets dropped out. Later, Panasonic dropped than finally LG and either Sanyo or Samsung.
The last generation of Plasma sets were AWESOME to look at.
Power consumption was also probably an issue. They tend to run WARM which is good in winter and NOT so good in summer!

Maybe a 4k plasma WAS possible, but would have been a real wallet buster. Sales numbers were down. So unit cost to justify the R+D / development would have been high.

The replacement is better than them ALL in the form of the OLED panels from LG. This is also an 'emissive' rather than 'transmissive' tech and has a good viewing angle and all the other virtues of a top-display. Expensive, but worth it to the videophile.

Go test view an OLED set. You'll see that with good source material, NO CRT can keep up.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 22, 2016 at 17:12:54
goldenthal
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Yes, I have seen and been impressed by plasma sets, and I agree that they are much better than my CRTs and better than LED sets I have seen. However, broadcast content I find of worth insufficient to drive me to new technology before the old craps out. Not that there aren't great movies around, but even them I watch more as literature than as visual art. Just me -- born short of part of a faculty (largely colour-blind, hyperopic, &c.).


Jeremy

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 22, 2016 at 18:50:12
A.Wayne
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I have owned every topology known to man in regards to amplifiers and i have always bought on sound only. More specifically , with Class-D , i have had and used ,

Bel Canto
Rotel
Crown

Never had any of the NCore stuff and have heard amd used Devialet ( which is/isnt class-D )

Currently hearing good stuff about NORDS, but currently class-D less as none except the Devialet ( too expensive) peaks my interest and none are good at 2/1 ohm where I'm currently playing ...

Regards ..

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 22, 2016 at 19:23:31
Kal Rubinson
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I've used every generation of BelCanto ClassD (TriPath, ICE Power and nCore) and they each sounded different. As for running 1/2ohm loads, I cannot comment.

However, my main point here is that noise pollution is not a big issue and one should simply assess/choose on the basis of performance.

 

RE: Class D, posted on December 22, 2016 at 19:48:52
pictureguy
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I only need keep in mind that about 1/2 the sets sold in the US are NEVER adjusted for color.

Many of these are the same persons who find MP3 to be 'hifi' and a compressed-to-death JPG to be all OK.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 23, 2016 at 08:16:25
A.Wayne
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I'm not disagreeing with you , only passing on my experiences , we have only listened to class-D on ESL's , ribbons, ribbon hybrids and here they fail in comparison to good class-A A/ab Amps, I'm technically aware they would sound differently at 8 ohms with conventional higher sensitivity speakers and had looked into modifying the output inductor for low Z operations.


Frankly the lack of proper heatsinking and limited PSU would have to be addressed for that also, imo opinion they are currently best as 8 ohm amplifiers.


Regards.


 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 24, 2016 at 18:47:21
pictureguy
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My PLASMA TV emits orders of magnitude MORE RFI / HASH than my 'd' integrated with B&O ASP modules.
I mean I can hear my Plasma TV from 50khz (way below AM band) out to 30Mhz. And out to maybe 25 feet or so. I wish I had a scope to see if or how MUCH of this nonsense made it to my speaker terminals.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 25, 2016 at 10:51:07
A.Wayne
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When you hit 25 you wont notice it much ..... :)

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 25, 2016 at 12:55:18
pictureguy
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In years past, even if I couldn't HEAR any noise, I noticed when it was removed. When I installed a power conditioner, I popped my ears. Nothing wrong before but OH!, the after.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on December 26, 2016 at 11:01:23
A.Wayne
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I have to disagree Kal , the noise is very important and it's one of the reasons IMO why class-D is so sensitive to power cords . In a similair discussion with that other John ( Curl) it was one of his main reasons at the time for staying away from SMPS ...

 

Not all Class D amps use SMPS. (NT), posted on December 26, 2016 at 11:43:38
Kal Rubinson
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RE: Not all Class D amps use SMPS. (NT), posted on December 26, 2016 at 13:27:54
A.Wayne
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Well those are the ones in discussion , not Linear supply class-D ...

 

I do not see that there is such a constraint on this discussion., posted on December 26, 2016 at 14:20:53
Kal Rubinson
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It is about class D amps and they can be powered in different ways.

 

RE: I do not see that there is such a constraint on this discussion., posted on December 27, 2016 at 08:03:09
Freo-1
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Agree. I'm currently using a a pair of Primare A34.2 amps configured in mono. The Primare has switching a power supply, and it's very quiet. The fact that it can put out 1100 watts into a nominal 4 ohm load of my Dynaudio Focus 360's really makes them sing. I highly doubt folks would pick up on the fact they are class D, as they sound very much like a top performing Class A A/B setup.

BTW, Benchmark has a point paper about the switching power supplies in their DAC2/3 units. They state the noise floor is LESS with the switching power supply units in the DAC. I can attest to the fact that the Benchmark DAC2 DX provides a DEAD quiet background for the music.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: I do not see that there is such a constraint on this discussion., posted on December 29, 2016 at 09:00:55
A.Wayne
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Kal ,

It's academic, the noise in discussion is emitted by SMPS supplies , not the amp, hence why PSRR is so important with them.


you can power class-D on batteries for all that ...

 

OK but....................., posted on December 29, 2016 at 12:40:55
Kal Rubinson
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You are correct but the fact is that, while the majority of ClassD amps use SMPS, not all do.

Nonetheless, when one generally speaks of a ClassD amp, one is referring to the audio amplification portion and, as we agree, the PS can be SMPS, conventional linear or, even, a battery. This distinction has not been explicit in this thread before and, as you point out, should be.

 

Technology moves forward.., posted on December 29, 2016 at 13:50:20
Freo-1
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Switching power supplies do not have to be noisy. Check out this link from Benchamrk on the subject. Their DAC's, as well as the AHB 2 amps sound very good, with very low noise floors, and switching power supplies.

When a company like Primare states that they can achieve better sound from their Class D vs. Class AB, that should tell folks that technology does indeed move forward.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Technology moves forward.., posted on December 29, 2016 at 17:47:23
A.Wayne
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It's audio Freo, better for whom ..?

Too much subjectivity with sound , best we stick with SMPS noise and PSRR with amplifiers ... :)

Personally ,

I find Class-D to be super sensitive to power cords, the noise going back unto the AC line can be measured so it's not a subjective deal, one can always chk or not.

Pro: I have always liked the jump factor of class-D and always willing to try because of , but could never live with their poor timbre and for some, a odd presentation and no i have not heard the Bel Canto black or Mola , Mola ...

I did like the Devialet mono's, which is not all class-D ..


Regards ..

 

If you want to try some......................., posted on December 29, 2016 at 18:06:08
Kal Rubinson
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Theta Prometheus/Dreadnaught
Classe Sigma Mono
...in addition to the Mola-Mola and Bel Canto.

They are quite different.

 

RE: Technology moves forward.., posted on December 29, 2016 at 18:09:57
Freo-1
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Joined: June 14, 2008
Did you read the Benchmark link? They believe that their switching power supplies are actually quieter than linear power supplies. The points they make about hum and magnetic interference are valid.

The Primare uppeer frequencies/timbre is unique among the class D amps I've heard. Their solution is proprietary, and works as good as a well designed Class AB (IMHO).

BTW, when I want to do serious listening, the Stax headphone setup (with SR 007) is what I use. I find it's superior to pretty much any regular playback setup. :-)
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on January 15, 2017 at 02:28:22
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
The noise from any class D amp is far above the human hearing range. Also above canine hearing. If you keep pet bats, they will be annoyed, but there's no way you can hear it. (Have you have your hearing tested recently? Most important "component" in your music system is your hearing. You'll probably be disappointed, though- if your over about 35 years old you'll be lucky to have sensitive hearing above 15 kHz. Many over-50 audiophiles can't hear above 13 kHz, especially if they went to a lot of rock venues in their youth!)

SO the noise from class D subwoofer amps is not audible. Not in the subwoofer, and if somehow transmitted to main left / right / center / surround speakers not audible there either. 200 kHz is a common frequency to use for class D, and they filter out most of this from the output of the amp, so there shouldn't be much of this signal to begin with, and you certainly aren't able to hear it regardless.

ONE POSSIBILITY - some preamps and power amps **might** become unstable if some of this 200 kHz stuff leaks into them somehow. A GOOD design would not allow any ingress of this noise, but not all expensive audio gear is of GOOD design.


200 kHz is RADIO. It will float around the room a little. Some class D amps interfere with AM radios that are used nearby. ANY DECENT DESIGN of preamp or power amp will have taken some measures to prevent this kind of thing from coming in from common-mode or transverse mode power line transmission, and also have measures to guard against instability should ingress of this 200 kHz occur through ground loops, leaky / loose RCA connectors etc.

A subwoofer is a particularly good place for a class D amp. What you need is power down at the low end of the audio spectrum, and low source impedance. Class D amps are good at this. Some argue that Class D amps don't sound good in the midrange or treble, but I don't think anyone will argue against class D use for sub-bass.


Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

RE: Class D, posted on January 15, 2017 at 04:40:53
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
"I only need keep in mind that about 1/2 the sets sold in the US are NEVER adjusted for color. "

I wanted to reply to this right away and got distracted.

Why bother calibrating the set when half the movies are in blue and white or green and white or whatever ? I don't get where moviemakers got that shit in their head but it makes me want to turn the color all the way down.

Actually I only was exposed to it some, I don't really actively watch it. If I do I prefer stuff that is like 20 years old or older. Now alot of that had good color rendition.

And the MP3 thing ? I don't care what they do with today's music. It is like the TV and movies, everything worth writing has been written and now it is just a matter of adapting the plot or whatever and snazzing it up.

Tell the themoviemakers I have no need to see all the cool shit their super MAC computer can do. I also have no need for the 13th remake of a song that was written in the 1930s but now uses a synthesizer with 140,000 voices.

 

RE: Class D, posted on January 15, 2017 at 10:45:01
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
I'd suggest that most videophiles OWN or Acquire media and do NOT watch over small dish or Cable.
Both of them are compressed to death. My 'hi-def' over small dish looks about as good as a regular, upsampled DVD. Standard def is almost All soft by comparison.

Nobody at those services wants to talk about compression. Audio and Video.

I can hardly wait for 4k video. Small Dish will destroy it, I'm sure.

A movie like AVATAR, when properly shown, might make all the hassle worthwhile. For a number of years, equipment testers used the Bruce Willis SciFi entry 'The Fifth Element' as a standard.

And yes, I see some color shifts. Some movies stored for a long time have degradation in the emulsion which causes color shift. A GOOD TRANSFER to Digital should address that. And the sound, too.
I have a BR transfer of The Omega Man. Good SciFi starring Chuck Heston. Transfer is pretty good and sound is MONO, I think. The Transfer of 2001, Space Odyssey is much better both visually and audibly. Great job.

And yes, I'm sick and tired of 'franchise movies' endlessly repeating and recycling about a dozen scripts.
That's why a few 'gems' are appreciated all the more.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: Too much noise?, posted on January 15, 2017 at 13:24:58
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
Maybe a dual Voice Coil driver running from a stereo amp with MiniDSP as crossover?

An amp like the Parasound A21 will kick out about 400 watts to EACH of the 4ohm voice coils. Since it is a high-bias design, the first 10 or more watts per side will be in class 'A'.

If my Plasma TV doesn't pollute my stereo, NOTHING will.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Technology moves forward.., posted on January 15, 2017 at 14:40:05
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
This may or may not be true, it could also be nothing more than an Infomercial from the CO and since I dont design amplifiers, i usually yield to others better than I, like John Curl and Nelson Pass to name a few and unless their position on this has changed recently , they think SMPS are a problem and prefer Linear supplies as I and I'm not new to switchers either , my first was for my bespoke Pre-amp in 78 , the pre-amp had a fantastic sound , but others could hear it switching , when close to it , i had isolated it to the AC line via a 14V linear supply the SMPS delivered 24 volts to the flat amp and phono stage when supplied with 14 volts ..

It Bettered all my threshold pre's, a MC22 and was only bettered later by a ML26 pre in the late 80's ..

I still have it , so I'm not switching negative , just not sold on any superiority over Linear designs as of yet.

I have no issue purchasing a switcher, purchase will be based on performance , not because of ..


Regards..

 

Agree about performance , posted on January 15, 2017 at 15:56:31
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1329
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
Until recently, always thought that switching power supplies were problematic. The Benchmark DAC 2 DX has better noise measurements than the vast majority of DAC's available. I think the point paper Benchmark put out on switching power supplies is valid, using state of the art devices and designs.

Agree with the statement that performance of the gear is the most important, regardless of design topology. Having said that, nothing I've heard so far sounds better than listening to music with the Stax headphone setup.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on January 15, 2017 at 16:10:36
goldenthal
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 28, 2003
Does the noise at high-frequency intermodulate with anything below?


Jeremy

 

RE: Class D -- Thanks, All, and I'll Come Clean . . ., posted on January 15, 2017 at 16:13:30
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
Well, let's assume a 200 kHz noise and a 1000 Hz audio signal

Intermodulation products would be 199 and 201 kHz still inaudible.
Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

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