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Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?

146.185.31.214
Posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:02:58
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Are there really any VERY good solid state amps for under a grand? The mythical Giant Killer?

I was asked to make some recommendations at this price point.

NO Made in China, stuff, and no kits. Only new, no used.

Suggestions?

 

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RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:22:23
ksk
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: July 29, 2010
 I like the Yamaha A-S801, $899 on Amazon and\or Crutchfield.

See the reviews for more info.

No sure about the giant killer part, but not sure what else one would need?

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:31:09
PAR
 Many wonder if there are any VERY good solid state amps for OVER a grand :-) Can you settle on just good?

Does "No Made in China" mean literally that or just no Chinese brands? Most stuff from major brands at this price point which looks like it comes from Europe or Japan or, dare I say it, the USA is actually made in China ( or Thailand etc) and cutting out those reduces the opportunity of meeting your needs drastically as the big brands can offer some price advantage due to scale of production.

Are there any other qualifications we need know like how much power is needed, does the person you are advising expect that the amp will include a built in DAC or a phono stage etc. ( by amp I assume that you mean integrated amp)?

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:33:26
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 Here ya go!

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:47:53
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Understood. Chinese brands are A Ok. No outsourced crap for profit. There are far too many made in the USA budget components to argue that it is too expensive to do it here. At my company we only purchase products manufactured in the country of origin unless there is absolutely no alternative.

Yes, I also should have noted: Power Amp. 50 wpc minimum.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 16:50:17
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 This seems to be the "go to" amp for this request.

The ONLY knock, the blah looks. And no way to audition. BUT, the reputation of Klaus Bunge is beyond reproach.

I believe he made some waves at one RMAF when posted "No Made In China Crap" on his door. Ouch!

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:14:11
PAR
 It unfortunately seems that it would not meet the OP's needs. He is after a power amp and the manufacture of the A-S801 is outsourced from Japan to Malaysia.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:14:30
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 I doubt you will find any other amp made in USA for under a grand! I am sure it can be returned if you don't like it. It also has a 20 year warranty. Seems like a no brainer to me!

 

are you looking for a power amp or an integrated?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:23:07
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004



Here's my choice for integrated:


'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

Not certain of current pricing and/or if they are still assembled stateside, but, posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:32:45
DeKay
 Monarchy Audio's 70 power amplifier may be a candidate.

 

RE: Go Odyssey, had my monos for 10 years.., posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:37:37
kkak66
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: Florida
Joined: April 25, 2000
 Not one problem and I leave them on 24/7.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 17:43:47
rkeman
Audiophile

Posts: 597
Location: Florida
Joined: July 26, 2003
 Class D Audio SDS series. Serious made in the USA performance and value.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 18:24:10
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 It will be my top recommendation.

 

RE: are you looking for a power amp or an integrated?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 18:24:49
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
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 Interesting product thanks. They want a power amp, but I glad I saw this.

 

RE: Not certain of current pricing and/or if they are still assembled stateside, but, posted on August 29, 2016 at 18:25:50
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
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 Good call. I used Monarchy digital products all through the 90s. Excellent gear.

 

RE: Go Odyssey, had my monos for 10 years.., posted on August 29, 2016 at 18:26:49
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
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 I also recommend leaving solid state on 24/7. Good to know you have had a stellar experience with reliability.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 29, 2016 at 18:27:51
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Will def check these out. Red Dragon also comes to mind.

 

RE: Go Odyssey, had my monos for 10 years.., posted on August 29, 2016 at 22:01:37
kkak66
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: Florida
Joined: April 25, 2000
 Yes I've been lucky. I've had my VTL 5.5 for over 15 years not one peep or blown tube. I hope I don't jinx myself.

 

RE: are you looking for a power amp or an integrated?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 01:22:32
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
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 I note from the review that he compared this and the smaller amp to the Audio Note (UK) P2 SE. This amp and the P2 PP are among the best audio buys around, but cost 3 to 4 x these amps.

That suggests these 2 amps are an excellent value. I am going to look into them a bit more.

 

Giants and Giant Killers, posted on August 30, 2016 at 01:39:29
Frihed89
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 I'm not a believer in "giant killers". First of all, there are some expensive amps (say more than $8) that don't appeal to me at all and then there are some inexpensive amps (under $4,000) that sound a lot better.

In between, there is also a mix.

To me a giant is an amp that everyone agrees sounds impressively good and I can't afford.

 

No made in China?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 06:35:33
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
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 I'm sure there may be a handful at that pricepoint. Maybe. Used will provide a better product at that price. Power amp or integrated?



ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Rogue makes a class-D integrated amp, retails for $1300, posted on August 30, 2016 at 08:13:49
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
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 I've not heard it (and am skeptical of class D designs) but Herb Reichert liked it. Made in USA at a great price!

When you write "really good", I don't think such a thing exists even if sourced from the land of slave labor and no environmental protections.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 08:25:22
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I think you should be more concerned with searching reviews and postings about any particular piece.

Trying to fight global economy on a thousand dollar stereo is going to be rather hard.

but if people want Kmart prices then you're gonna have to accept a little cesium and melamine in your babies formula.

 

Not really., posted on August 30, 2016 at 08:36:40
genungo
 You'd be lucky to find a "really good" headphone power amp in that price category.

 

please let us know what you find, posted on August 30, 2016 at 08:49:57
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 They do look tasty, don't they?




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:09:37
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 That's the one (Khartago) that came to mind for me as well.

 

Not since the late 70's - inflation is a killer! nt, posted on August 30, 2016 at 10:28:32
RealStereo
 nt

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand? NO. I repeat: NO!, posted on August 30, 2016 at 10:39:50
Smelly_Socks
 "really good" and 'under a grand' do not go together.
At least not since 1965..

A really good used one would be a Forte' 4a (if you could even ever locate one) at about $750

 

RE: Not since the late 70's - inflation is a killer! nt, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:08:30
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
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 ...so is greed! Which is all that outsourced manufacturing is.

 

On the part of the manufacturers or consumers?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:19:44
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
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 Most consumers (at least in the U.S.) want the biggest thingy with the smallest price tag. So, who is being greedy when manufacturers move offshore? Not so clear cut, IMO.

 

RE: Not really., posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:20:45
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 I don't think that is correct. Aside form the Khartago, mentioned above...

...all made in the USA/EU.

http://www.avahifi.com/products/power-amplifiers/synergy-amplifiers/synergy-240-solid-state-amplifier

http://www.ciaudio.com/products/E100

http://www.powermodules.com/s-5amp.html

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/amplifiers/proprius-power-amplifier.html

Throwing in tubes, made in the usa or the EU, expands the list greatly.

Certainly not SOTA, but hardly crap.

 

RE: On the part of the manufacturers or consumers?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:21:52
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 No, it is clear, at least in this hobby. An over view of pricing and the way high end audio products are marketed makes obvious.

 

RE: please let us know what you find, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:34:09
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
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 The power amps look suspiciously like early versions of Crimson Electronic (UK) amps, output stage and all. The current models sound fantastic, but sell for about $3,000 (from Austin HiFI). I have heard their top of the line mono amps ($6,000) and they are fantastic.

 

Still not so clear, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:48:20
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 Certainly there are a lot of crazy expensive products in high end audio but it's not clear whether they are overpriced because of simple greed or because of manufacturing costs. Amps with fancy cases, silver thingeys, and first-rate customer service, sold at brick-and-mortar salons, and built-by-hand in the USA (rather than stamped out in a factory) will probably cost a pretty penny.

Let's say that a hypothetical amp has $1000 worth of circuit boards, power supplies, case, etc. The manufacturer has to cover that plus pay for labor, facilities, utilities, etc. Then they have to make a profit to pay the designer and owners. Then the retail store has to make enough to cover the purchase, all their expenses, and make a profit. By the time it gets to the consumer it probably retails $6-10K. That's the cost of doing business under this model.

Most people aren't willing (or cannot afford) to pay this price, so they go down to Best Buy and get a Chinese-made amp. One reason they aren't willing to is because they also want money buy a big screen TV and a jet ski. I own a really nice stereo and have a middle-class income. I'm able to do that because I drive a 1997 pick-up and don't own a jet ski (my TV is a 20 year old vacuum tube).

Also, if your claim was clear cut, don't you think there might be at least one integrous person who would build nice stuff in the USA that regular people could afford?

Not so clear . . .

 

RE: Still not so clear, posted on August 30, 2016 at 12:10:43
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
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 Not a knock at all, it is human nature, but your narrative is myopic and is sculpted to fit into your world view.

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING can possibly justify 100K plus audio components except sheer arrogance, greed, and the knowledge that the top 1% have more disposable income than in any time in history. Study after study has show that tax breaks for the ultra rich do not result in job growth and capital investments. It DOES however, lead to an increase in conspicuous consumption, which in the end, serves the economy I guess.

A $1500 US cable? $45,000 phono stage? $35,000 CD player? $55,000 speaker cables. NOTHING on earth, including R&D, parts, employees or rent could justify these costs given the end product.

That is my world view...:)

 

At least you acknowledge it's just your world view against mine, posted on August 30, 2016 at 12:33:40
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
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 >>>NOTHING on earth, including R&D, parts, employees or rent could justify these costs given the end product.

Unless you're in manufacturing, I don't think you have credibility on the topic. My wife is a massage therapist. She has 20 years experience and charges $55/hour. She averages 12-15 massages per week, which is close to the maximum a person can do without wrecking their body within a few years. Her net income is, maybe, $15K per year. The point is: unless you're in the business, you really have no idea of the costs involved and, thus, no idea of the profit margin.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 12:46:25
s-a-k
Audiophile

Posts: 59
Joined: May 10, 2007
 Class D Audio SDS 470 is pretty impressive, fits your criteria at $700 or so puts out 300 watts @ 8 ohms 600 watts @ 4 ohms.

 

100% agreed (nt), posted on August 30, 2016 at 14:37:28
gregwalshfmc@gmail.com
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 56
Location: Massachusettes
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 .

 

RE: At least you acknowledge it's just your world view against mine, posted on August 30, 2016 at 14:46:38
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 I have not worked directly in manufacturing but I have purchased and advised on millions of dollars of pro gear that has been installed in countless recording and mastering studios. I have done factory tours of and I can tell you I have observed the manufacturing process first hand..Bryston, Manley, etc etc. They make gear that lasts decades with 24/7 uese, built like a tank, with excellent sonics.

I have talked extensively with the principals of these companies and I know what their margins are. They know they can only charge 1/10 of what they charge the home audio market because in the pro audio world there are budgets and the sticker shock threshold is far, far lower.

Again, from my experience and world view.

 

RE: Still not so clear, posted on August 30, 2016 at 15:00:59
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Unfortunatly it doesn't need to be justified. COGS, G&A, R&D, marketing, economies of scale are all considered to determine pricing, but what overrides all of this, is what the market will bear. And yes, income inequality is a factor in high end audio.

 

RE: Still not so clear, posted on August 30, 2016 at 15:13:11
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

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 Good point.

An enormous amount of blame can also go to the review publications who have gone to EXTRA-ordinary lengths to justify pricing and brainwashing many into correlating price with musical satisfaction.

 

RE: Still not so clear, posted on August 30, 2016 at 17:22:39
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Not particular to Hifi, it is the nature of the beast. Trade publications, an anchronistic term now, incestuous with the manufacturers, court each other, support each other.

What is unique is the large number of people that are in the industry truly because they love it. AA and similar shows that, you don't find that in most industries.

What may be similar are the arts, and looking at some of the equipment you can see that. The art of Hifi, the aestetics of the sound and appearance.

 

RE: At least you acknowledge it's just your world view against mine, posted on August 30, 2016 at 19:24:13
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
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 I ran my own business for 25 years. I understand!!!!!

 

I'm confused, posted on August 30, 2016 at 20:20:54
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
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 Bryston and Manley make home audio gear, right? I'm pretty sure both make amps that sell north of $10K. Or do they have pro-audio divisions that sell the same stuff to that audience for <$1K?

Meanwhile, care to name some high end companies whose owners are buying second homes or driving Bentleys? I guess I've read that David Wilson has a Ferrari. Regardless, I've noticed the shrinking pool of advertisers in Stereophile. That suggests that the industry is in trouble despite what you perceive as greedily high profit margins.

 

I briefly tried to run my own business, posted on August 30, 2016 at 20:22:19
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 It was very eye opening how many different costs there were that I was previously ignorant of.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 30, 2016 at 23:44:41
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
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 It depends what you mean by really good and what your expectations are. For home theater or background music or sound effects from a video game - sure.

For me - the Sugden A21a is the entry level standard - second hand you might get one for $1200. Then again you might not. But for me The Sugden is where really good begins.

 

That's a lot of overhead, posted on August 31, 2016 at 00:23:31
Atwood
Audiophile

Posts: 527
Joined: October 10, 2001
 Running the numbers, 13 massages a week at $55 per massage is $715 a week. If she works 48 weeks, that's $34,320. Our some of the massages only a half hour?

Otherwise, the net sure seems low.

 

RE: That's a lot of overhead, posted on August 31, 2016 at 06:14:15
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 It's not just the stuff you think about (office rent, laundry, oils, linens, towels, utilities, phone, fees, licenses and more) but also trainings, books, tuning forks, furniture . . .

Some of it is quasi-one-time expenses but it all adds up and her take-home is less than one-half her gross receipts. As with manufacturing, there is an economy of scale but you can't scale up past about where she is without ending your vocation. I've read that some therapist in big cities can make an actual income. Those people don't last more than a few years unless they can branch out (tuning forks, light therapy, cranio, etc).

 

Thanks, a great list, and I'd add ..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 06:28:17
Feanor
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Posts: 9873
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 One more: Class D Audio's offerings, see link below.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: Thanks, a great list, and I'd add ..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 06:55:30
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 there you go...

and how can we forget W4S, and Rega (Brio).

 

Yep, posted on August 31, 2016 at 07:08:56
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 the only REALLY good one under a grand I can think of is both a kit and tubes - the VTA ST-70. Both mentioned as what he didn't want. But it is US made. Que Sera, Sera

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 31, 2016 at 09:56:21
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 The answer to your question is really dependent on what speaker you're trying to drive. If it's a difficult load, the options narrow considerably.

 

That's up to your friend, not us ..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 09:57:44
reelsmith.
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  Since: January 19, 2010
 He may very well find something that floats his boat for under a grand.

I can only use my ears when I listen, so what other people think is of no concern.

;-)

Dean.






reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Monarchy Audio comes close..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 11:05:29
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
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 Designed & assembled in the US of A.

Think they SE100 and SM70 come in at just over a grand these days, though...

 

And when you buy a used A21..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 11:57:09
genungo
 ... you are TRULY buying a used one. They run so hot that the remaining lifespan for a well-used A21 is a relatively short one.

"Better to burn out than to fade away" though.

 

RE: Monarchy Audio comes close..., posted on August 31, 2016 at 12:09:06
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 The OP wants a least 50 wpc. The SM 70 is 25 wpc and the SE-100 are mono amps at $2000 a pair.
Close,but no cigar!

 

Maybe Parasound, posted on August 31, 2016 at 18:48:50
tommytube
Audiophile

Posts: 1539
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 17, 2003
 Although it might be more "pretty good" for the money rather than giant killer "really good". They have a new Parasound 2125 V2 that's a refreshed version 2 of one of there classic amps. Cost is $800 for new. Worth hearing.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 31, 2016 at 19:45:12
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
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That is a hard one. It all depends, what speakers and preamp will he be using? Also, the amp adds to the sound very little compared to the source, preamp and speakers. Sometimes buying an excellent sounding amp gets lost when you add inferior source, preamp and speakers....

 

RE: Still not so clear, posted on August 31, 2016 at 19:47:06
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
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That is very sound thinking and I agree with you....

 

Good call, posted on August 31, 2016 at 20:19:55
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I owned two Odyssey amps, the Stratos and the Stratos Extreme. For bang for the buck value I would stick with Klaus's base models and not go for the added-cost upgrades.

His amps all share the same basic design and sound excellent for the price. I've owned better sounding amps but they cost much more.

The Odyssey amps seem to sound their best after being left ON for several hours, or just leave them ON 24/7. Being modest Class AB designs they don't draw a lot of power at idle and they never get hot.




 

I don't think so, but if you find one let me know. Thanks! /nt\, posted on August 31, 2016 at 22:14:40
John Elison
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Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on August 31, 2016 at 23:05:27
Trouser Trout
Audiophile

Posts: 286
Location: New England
Joined: August 25, 2010






The ATI AT1202 2CH 120W/CH AMPLIFIER. Designed and built in the US of A.

The AT1202 is a 2-channel power amplifier that combines rugged design attributes with audiophile-grade performance. The AT1202 delivers 120WRMS into 8 Ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.03% THD and I.M. distortion with both channels driven and 180 Watts RMS (minimum) into 4 ohms with the same conditions. Of significant importance to the custom installer is the AT1202's stability with complex capacitive and reactive loads. Most notably, the AT1202 is designed with clip limiters that will prevent damage to speakers and in-room volume controls due to over-driven situations. Gain controls are provided for each channel




MSRP: $895.00

 

RE: Maybe Parasound, posted on September 1, 2016 at 07:23:19
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 actually a very interesting choice. Not bad looking, the only issue I would have with it are the very tacky features: two sets of binding posts, variable gain, etc

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 07:24:06
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Extremely interesting choice, thanks.

 

RE: I briefly tried to run my own business, posted on September 1, 2016 at 08:39:18
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I like to think of business today as you being a Zebra with vultures feeding off your carouse.

 

Another Parasound model to consider, posted on September 1, 2016 at 11:09:26
tommytube
Audiophile

Posts: 1539
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 17, 2003
 Maybe this one is more like you or your friend need.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 11:41:44
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 Rotel 1552 MK2 Excellent

 

RE: Another Parasound model to consider, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:38:05
Trouser Trout
Audiophile

Posts: 286
Location: New England
Joined: August 25, 2010
 Made in the USA was on the bucket list. Most of the Parasound stuff is made in China.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:45:32
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Fabrique En China.

 

RE: I'm confused, posted on September 1, 2016 at 15:31:02
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Here is a wild take on it all...I mean out there..but touches on some of the points discussed here.

Ken Kessler:

 

RE: I'm confused, posted on September 1, 2016 at 15:31:54
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 and a follow up...again..wild..

Kessler: No Apologies

 

RE: I'm confused, posted on September 1, 2016 at 20:26:49
Beetlemania
Audiophile

Posts: 1217
Location: Utah
Joined: November 1, 2003
 Kessler's rant is interesting but he hardly touches on how hi-fi got that way or offers any ideas on how to find a different way.

Meanwhile, I see that Manley indeed has a pro-audio "division" but I can't tell that the pro stuff is 1/10 the price of the home audio gear.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 23:05:28
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 Yes Rotel 1552 MK2

 

RE: And when you buy a used A21..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 06:43:46
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Interesting - Where did you find the statistics that they had high failure rates. You'd think that since they've been selling for 49 years this would have been big news over the years?

 

RE: And when you buy a used A21..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 07:54:48
genungo
 They might keep on running but do they keep on running "in spec", as they were surely designed to do *for a reasonable amount of time*?

I'd expect that the output transistors and capacitors in a very hot running class A amp would degrade or drift off spec more quickly than those in a cool running amp. Wouldn't you?

Maybe it's just a myth that hot running amps don't last as long as cool running ones. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

 

ATI1202 fit's the bill, posted on September 2, 2016 at 07:58:24
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 no wasted $ on cosmetics - adequate power for most loudspeakers.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

You know that a US made stereo is filled with foreign made parts anyway, posted on September 2, 2016 at 08:55:46
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 So what's the point here?

Reminds me of some people I once had to deal with that would buy a Ford thinking it's US made when it was really made in Mexico. Verses my first Nissan that was made in Kentucky.

In truth you make more of a benefit buying from a local shop then a Mega chain store.

 

They took their production from Taiwan to China?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 13:58:31
erik
Audiophile

Posts: 1145
Location: New England
Joined: April 3, 2000
 That sucks.

 

That depends on your speakers and what you want them to do., posted on September 2, 2016 at 14:07:46
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
 Because sometimes there are. I bought a used Cambridge Audio Azure 840a (V1) from well under a grand to try with a pair of Martin Logan Aeon I's. I didn't like the combo at first, but for some reason, after 2 weeks of a few hours play per day, the Cambridge 840a came to life and made the Aeon's sound beautifully open and airy in a way my (then) existing Plinius 9200 couldn't hold a candle to. The 840a had the Plinius cornered in just about every element of handling the ML load and controlling the delivery. I was surprised and delighted. I still have the 840a. It's not in my current system (Tannoy Autographs and Naim Nait XS is pure magic), but I am loath to part with it.

 

RE: That depends on your speakers and what you want them to do., posted on September 2, 2016 at 15:21:51
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Interesting story. I was not impressed with the Cambridge integrated amps I have heard in the past but it has been a good 10 years. I know the line has been revamped into a powerhouse and quality is very high. I think they have been over looked because sometimes all the British brands that build in china all blur together..their are dozens of them..but Cambridge has stood the test of time.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 16:57:06
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016

Hello all;

I want to thank everyone for the suggestions and the discussion.

My bud and I have narrowed it down to two choices:

The Odyssey Khartago and the Australian made Burson Timekeeper.

https://www.bursonaudio.com/products/timekeeper/

It is $1500 Class A/B, 80 wpc, and if it performs up to expectations he will spring for it.

He is going to get to hear both amps this weekend.

BTW, the speakers they will be matched with are the Spatial M3.

Those are on my list too. Exceptional for the price and way beyond (Under 2K).

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 17:52:59
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 That's not under a grand!

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 18:21:50
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Uh, yes, I noted it was $1500. He would spring for the extra $500 if is very good. I have had very good experiences with Burson gear.

 

RE: That depends on your speakers and what you want them to do., posted on September 2, 2016 at 23:58:42
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 I am not impressed with any Cambridge Audio product, every one I bought has had to be returned for a refund.

 

RE: And when you buy a used A21..., posted on September 3, 2016 at 20:50:45
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I don't know - there are numerous tube amps that last 5 decades - and a dealer that sold class D told me that more than 50% of them fail within 5 years. And he sold $3,000 class D amps from a big name.

In theory you are correct - but then maybe if Sugden uses a very good part and the class D cool running amp uses Chinese made $0.01 chips that may be a deciding factor. The Sugden changed from 10 watts to 20 watts because better parts materials became available.

It's a tough decision but performance often requires a bit more work whether it be getting superior performance in audio but having to change tubes and deal with heat or whether it be replacing tires on a Ferrari more often than a Ford Focus - vastly superior performance might be worth it.

I remember my initial audition with my OTO and separates from Bryston. I'm Canadian - the Bryston is Canadian - it has a 20 year warranty and 160watts per channel and much more options being separates. The OTO came with a 1 year warranty, 10 watts, integrated. So it's a gamble to to go with the OTO when looking at all the surrounding aspects. Until the play button was pushed. So the "risk" outweighed the benefits. The OTO is 12 years old now and I have replaced one tube ($8). So does one take IMO vastly better sound quality for 12 years or sound that I would have sold in 6 months at a big loss for the benefit of having a 20 year warranty?

I think we would need to hear from Sugden dealers and owners as to how they have lasted over the years. I remember when the Sugden got 5 stars for sound and the Bryston B60 got 3 stars for sound in Hi-Fi CHoice's blind tests. So the decision was the same - do we choose 3 star sound to last 20 years or 5 star sound that may need some work after 10?

 

I'd rather have the Sugden, posted on September 4, 2016 at 09:58:36
genungo
 As long as I had the speakers to match and if the price was right.

The Bryston 2BLP dual mono amp puts out 60 watts per channel, sounds decent, and can be found on the used market for about half the price of a good second hand Sugden. I used to own one and would not hesitate to buy another if I needed an amp with slightly more guts. Not too clinical sounding, good bass oomph.

 

RE: I'd rather have the Sugden, posted on September 4, 2016 at 18:13:33
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 The Bryston 2B many people felt was the best "sounding" Bryston. In Canada you can usually get a 2B for $350 Canadian. A Sugden will still likely run at least $1k.

Even my old A48B was sold recently on a Canadian board for $500.

 

RE: I'd rather have the Sugden, posted on September 5, 2016 at 08:42:08
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 What speakers are we driving , to choose amplification without knowing the load is cart /horse mad ...

 

RE: I'd rather have the Sugden, posted on September 5, 2016 at 20:09:35
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 That's a good point. Personally, any speaker that can't be driven by the Sugden is likely going to be a speaker I will not like ("not like" being incredibly diplomatic).

 

Which begs the question.., posted on September 9, 2016 at 09:12:52
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
 Why do you keep buying them?

What did you not like about what you took home?

Does your dealer not let you try it in the store first?

What did you prefer overall?

 

RE: Which begs the question.., posted on September 11, 2016 at 09:05:05
dyl71
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 9, 2016
 You can find a B&K 200.2 or maybe even a 200.5 used for under a grand. I have the 200.2 and it's a fantastic amp for 2 channel..made in the USA and has 75 amp current supply. Granted B&K of this era is out of business despite the namesake being sold and resurrected, but these are very fine amps and a great bang for the buck on the used market.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 17, 2016 at 11:28:36
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016



Used of course, the Belles I a true giant killer at its original selling price, even more so now.

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on September 17, 2016 at 11:32:13
Kingshead
Audiophile

Posts: 574
Location: Florida
Joined: September 14, 2016






Nudies of the Belles I with objects inserted for size reference.

Tried to include these pics in the previous post, said it posted several times but it never actually posted so I split the pics into two posts.

Martin

 

Parasound A23 - But Chinese made, posted on October 3, 2016 at 08:59:17
erik_sq
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: San Francisco Bay
Joined: September 28, 2016
 I really like the sound quality and aesthetics of the A23. They are biased quite heavily into class A, a little more than spec'd based on power draw.

While I would much rather keep our dollars in the US, I don't have a problem at all with Chinese quality or ingenuity vs. any other country. The quality of Chinese products depends entirely on the willingness of the manufacturer to put boots on the ground for inspection, and ensure the contracts are fair all around. Other countries require this less because of additional government oversight of working conditions, etc.


Best,



Erik

 

RE: Parasound A23 - But Chinese made, posted on October 3, 2016 at 09:44:06
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 While many companies talk a good game about having boots on the ground to monitor Chinese factories, I know for a fact they still get shipments with production runs that have counterfeit parts, cosmetic flaws, and defective units. Not to mention miraculously reverse engineered clones that magically appear as a new brand in the Chinese market for sale at half the price.

Now..I don't know if it is different when the company owns the factory, like B&W etc. It is possible that at that point it is air tight.

 

RE: Parasound A23 - But Chinese made, posted on October 3, 2016 at 10:17:21
erik_sq
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: San Francisco Bay
Joined: September 28, 2016
 It really depends on the attention given. One US brand may just send out a Request For Quote, and specify nothing about quality. They hire whoever bids lowest and not only can they be horrible working conditions but it can be prison labor or children working 80 hours a week making them. Companies like Apple and Nike only care when they are forced to. No wonder they can undercut US prices that way.

Another brand sends out an RFQ and specifies ISO 9001 certified factory, as well as quality metrics, tests, and will put their own inspectors in the factory.

Between those two brands there's a big difference in cost, as well as what the consumers will end up getting. Not to mention, the latter it's harder for factories to sell the US brand products out the back door.

In any event, the final responsibility rests with the brand, not the factory and it's not about Chinese people, they are great, it's about greed. Give the workers good pay, good working conditions and they, like everyone else, want to make outstanding products.

Best,


Erik

 

RE: Are there REALLY any really good solid state amps under a grand?, posted on October 10, 2016 at 01:20:48
gordguide
Audiophile

Posts: 302
Joined: January 20, 2002
 " ... The AT1202 is a 2-channel power amplifier that combines rugged design attributes with audiophile-grade performance ..."

There is no such thing as "Audiophile performance" ... audiophile refers to people, not equipment. Furthermore, sonic praise *from* audiophiles is like a nickname ... it is bestowed, not self declared.

When I read ad copy like that a run, not walk, away.

 

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