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Current prouction versus vintage

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Posted on July 20, 2016 at 12:23:46
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 What are peoples thoughts and experience regarding the sound of current production amplifiers and preamps versus vintage. I would like to exclude reliability, assume the vintage equipment has had electrolytics and out of tolerance components replaced, sockets, switches and potentiometers cleaned, power cords replaced.

There are people here with so much equipment experience, seems like a good place to ask the question. Thank-you for responses in advance.

 

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RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 20, 2016 at 12:43:53
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 There's good new and crap vintage. In the end it is all about taste.

My thoughts of the day:

I like modern speakers. Modern drivers and especially the designs are just in another league

I like modern preamps for the simple fact that I can't stand fixing another vintage preamp. Preamps have a significant mechanical factor. Newer technology provides fewer moving parts and less useless interconnection problems. Vintage preamps tend to have a lot of extra "stuff" that in the end degrades the sound. However preamp designs are an art and should be a serious decision.

Vintage amps I like a lot. Muscle and smoothness that new gear just lost sight of. Very musical and strong sounding with no wishy washy bass. Also they tend to have a simpler design and higher quality discrete parts. Nothing like a restored Marantz 250!

However new amps are tight and very articulate. But they don't have the Magic vintage amps do have.

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 20, 2016 at 13:36:42
bigshow
Audiophile

Posts: 472
Location: WI
Joined: December 3, 2012
 I would not be able to afford new amp and pre that can out perform my ARC SP8 and VT50.So I vote for vintage that has been serviced and updated as necessary.
bigshow

 

May I add, posted on July 20, 2016 at 14:05:57
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 You take a piece of vintage gear and have it professionally restored and you will have a piece of audio gear for life!!!!

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 20, 2016 at 14:44:23
krankkall
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: New Mexico
Joined: April 5, 2014
 I'm lucky in that I can read an electrical schematic and handle a soldering iron, without burning my house down.
I've found a few inexpensive vintage amps to play with over the years.
They might NOT be in minty condition physically, but electrically they are in fine shape.

Steve

 

The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 15:27:20
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 but cannot compare to the best current gear using stiffer power supplies, more linear caps, better gain controls, balanced operation, etc.

Yours is such a broad question as to make it not particularly useful. Do you have a specific case in point?

 

To me, posted on July 20, 2016 at 15:45:32
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Thats like asking what is better a red car or a blue car. I like vintage gear and tubes. A good rebuild is a must but I find most vintage linestages have too much gain for todays high output sources.





ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 20, 2016 at 15:46:25
Uncle Mike
 I think this where it diverges. SS vs tubes. A restored tube piece with carefully chosen modern parts really brings out the best in old designs. In fact that's all most modern tube gear is for the most part.
Solid state on the other hand, if you like that kind of thing, just keeps getting better. I'm not talking mass market, box store stuff. It's taken awhile but they have really started to figure it out. Frank Van Alstine at AVA stared on something quiet a few years back. The 400r Fetvalve I have is not far from the Citation II.
If you have the cash get something new. If you need to stretch a budget get something older that you can work on and maintain. I always took to heart a phrase that Frank at Angela Electronics used to have on his web site.
"just a way for you cheap bums to get some good sounds"

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 15:51:14
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Yep, you can rebuild and mod old power amps better than the old pre amps IMO which have pots, a big weak point ( many new pre's have no pots) and often have too much gain as well.



ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage - solid state, posted on July 20, 2016 at 16:11:02
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...I agree that solid state keeps getting better and it's much more than parts you could put in vintage amps.

Part of it (as E-Stat mentioned) is stiffer power supplies but you also have better matched output devices (transistors, FETs) and a greater awareness of the need to eliminate odd order distortion (Curl) in newer designs.

If you read the Charles Hansen interview in last month's Stereophile, he describes his journey in improving his products and what he's found over the past 10 years.

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 20, 2016 at 16:15:08
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Thank-you airtime, what you wrote makes a lot of sense. But I am biased (nerd pun), through trial and error tend to listen to current preamp, vintage amp - all tube.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 16:26:06
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Case in points, unfortunatly. Can't see the forest for the trees, but the inmates here have so much experience and articulate broad strokes along with detail.

An Audible Illusions SS amplifier blew me away until I switched to ESl's that demanded tubes. Tried some current tube amplfiers and ended up vintage.

Preamplifiers, cleaned, replaced, bypassed so many controls and circuits with the older stuff gravitated to newer equipment. And points well taken on the components, mainly coupling and electrolytics available today, but also faster diodes. Makes the older equipment really sing.

These are some of my experiences, so I posted to see if I have missed the boat.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 16:45:00
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 An Audible Illusions SS amplifier blew me away until I switched to ESl's that demanded tubes.

Demanded tubes? Or, anything from Nelson Pass. The 800A from 1975 easily handled the poster child for difficult reactive electrostatic loads - the Dayton-Wrights. In the 80s, Nelson used to demo his Stasis series using double Daytons. I used a Stasis 3 from 1981 until quite recently driving a range of Acoustat full range stats.

Tried some current tube amplfiers and ended up vintage.

I've used VTL monoblocks with my Sound Lab U-1PXs now for about fifteen years.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:00:56
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Thank-you E-Stat I will look into them. I have gone in and out of audio over the years and have missed a lot and appreciate being educated.

One thing that I should have mentioned is that I listen to lowish volume classical all of the time I am working, and I worked too much. Listening fatigue was a big factor in my tube bias.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:09:43
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37673
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 One thing that I should have mentioned is that I listen to lowish volume classical all of the time...

I get that. Nelson's high bias designs resolve down to the noise floor.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:24:40
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Thanks again, found some very good articles on-line about Nelson Pass.

 

Kind of like my Sherwood S-5000, posted on July 20, 2016 at 17:35:19
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Once Mike Samra restored it I DARE ya to find a better EL84 stereo

 

RE: Kind of like my Sherwood S-5000, posted on July 20, 2016 at 19:38:43
geezerrocket
 +1 and Amen brother. I would put mine up against any modern el84 amp.









 

RE: Kind of like my Sherwood S-5000, posted on July 20, 2016 at 19:54:37
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I would put that Sherwood up against just about any amp regardless of price or type. That little thing is amazing!!! Or I should say what Mike did to it made it all it could be.

 

mid course. not old, but post 1986 top of the line still excellent as used gear, posted on July 20, 2016 at 22:18:43
Smelly_Socks
 So plenty of Audio Research, Nelson Pass, Conrad Johnson and other gear well in the top category yet today.

 

Current prouction vs vintage SS amps, posted on July 21, 2016 at 04:06:43
Solidcore
Audiophile

Posts: 374
Joined: April 19, 2001
 With current high end prices on eg. SS class a power amps and the high pace tempo of model change, its obviously a good and relevant idea to look at vintage models. There must be loads of old Krell, Pass an Levinson amps that still is very attractive and easy to restore if needed.
rgds Jan

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 21, 2016 at 08:39:33
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 That is exactly what my tube setup is. I really feel if music is your end goal this is a very smart and wise way to go.

System one A Conrad Johnson Classic 2SE preamp
VTA ST-70 kit remake of the old Dynaco ST-70

System one B Sherwood S-5000 fully restored and upgraded by Mike Samra


I have a variety of other piece that I will occasionally roll in and out of the system to keep things interesting. but these two ARE my listening stereos.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 21, 2016 at 08:50:10
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 You described to the letter my listening taste and needs.

You should look into the VTA ST-70. Perhaps the biggest bang for the audio buck in history!!!! Put a set of Gold Lion KT66's in there and your amp buying daze are over. At least that is where I am. I sure like to look. But in the end I don't have that need to keep searching or collecting.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 21, 2016 at 08:59:29
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Thank-you airtime for the recommendation. I do the same, role in and out some different amplifiers. Citation II, Quad II, 8b, even UA1's at time, system is bi-amped can get away with less power for the top end.

Did you ever end up in AZ, if so what part? E-mail if you like.

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 21, 2016 at 11:10:19
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Sure did Fountain hills area

 

RE: The best vintage can sound very good indeed, posted on July 21, 2016 at 12:57:03
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 1987
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
 Excellent choice. We're about an hour from you. When we first moved here 35 years ago Fountain Hills looked like a great place to live, just would have been a long commute.

 

Technology marches on, posted on July 21, 2016 at 21:07:34
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13976
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 For the most part, the equipment you can buy new today far surpasses
in almost all respects the "vintage" equipment you could buy new back
in the day. Which is not to say that all vintage equipment is inferior,
because it is not. But if you're looking for the highest of fi, you
need to look at modern equipment.



Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Newer Technology Might Not Sound "Better"....., posted on July 21, 2016 at 21:38:16
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 Good sounding gear is good; whether newer or older. While it might be true that parts quality might have improved, like certain electrolytic or boutique graded capacitors, we still might prefer the older stuff. Retro-fitting and upgrading older parts to newer has brought the vintage gear back into the forefront; especially for analog sources.

Have you priced any vintage Thorens 124 or Garrard 301/401 or Lenco rebuilt tables ? The high prices reflect the demand from a very discerning audience. Have you priced NOS tubes vs. newer tubes ? Why do you think many covet the older tubes ? It is not simple collectability, my friend.

While Opamps have come a long way, some keen ears prefer certain earlier Opamp gain stage devices over newer, less noisy, fancy FET derived devices. You are correct, though. Technology has come along, especially in the digital domain; if you prefer those sources...

Amps and speakers ? Newer is better ? Maybe; maybe not...Have you heard any field coil speakers ? How about vintage Altec, JBL, WE speakers and amps ? Certainly we can all agree that older gear can easily compete with newer gear; from an "enjoyable sound" standpoint. An old friend once said "Good audio equipment sounds alike..." So, great gear sounds great and other great gear also sounds great; but maybe a bit different. Better ? Maybe, not better; just different....

There are many roads to the same place. A mix of old and new can also sound great. System synergy is imperative; but not always an easy find. I am certain of this: If you enjoy newer, that is very cool for you. If I enjoy vintage, that is also cool for me. The listening enjoyment we each get in our own home systems is the same....

 

I like the mix of old and new - good sound is good sound no matter where it comes from, posted on July 22, 2016 at 08:17:11
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Like listening to my restored Sherwood S-5000 with new Zaph audio SR-71 speakers and a Marantz streaming player.

Or my new kit built VTA ST-70 (Dynaco ST-70) with fully redesigned driver board and power supply taking advantage of those new modern parts and materials. Now THAT'S audio improvement!!!!!

As they said in the 60's "hey it's your bag man so don't be a jive turkey and bum me out"

You got 50 or so years of some stunning audio to choose from. Enjoy it all!

 

RE: I like the mix of old and new - good sound is good sound no matter where it comes from, posted on July 22, 2016 at 12:27:14
davidandcandy@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 192
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 12, 2014
 As they said in the 60's "hey it's your bag man so don't be a jive turkey and bum me out"
So funny how we used to talk (just like above!) and think we were hip/cool/far out/etc. And maybe, back then, we were. All I know is that now when I'm reminded of it, I cringe & have to tell myself, "calm down Dave, it was normal back then. Sorta.
Everyone thinks I'm strange except my friends deep inside the earth

 

Far out! (nt), posted on July 22, 2016 at 13:30:05
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001

 

RE: Newer Technology Might Not Sound "Better"....., posted on July 22, 2016 at 14:34:21
Uncle Mike
 "Have you priced NOS tubes vs. newer tubes ? Why do you think many covet the older tubes ? It is not simple collectability, my friend."

My 2 cents
I think this grounded in the period from the late 80s when American and European production stopped. EI, RFT (the dirty little secret was that Telefunken was using them to make their tubes) and Tesla at first were dismissed until people were forced to use them as replacements. I got a kick when I started seeing accolades for tubes not too far previous were dismissed as third world cast offs. New tubes for awhile, Soviet or Chinese, for the most part were mediocre to fair with many many build issues.
New tubes today are becoming very good especially in light of the cost of old stock. So don't be so much in a hurry to make such broad assumptions.

 

RE: Newer Technology Might Not Sound "Better"....., posted on July 22, 2016 at 18:57:23
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 No assumptions have been made Mike; but, thanks for your input. Having tried many new types, I understand and agree some are good to very good. However, and of course there must be a however, concerning the tubes I use, I keep going back to the very vintage types for their sound qualities and longevity. Lucky for me, I have been collecting for more then a few decades.

BTW, those smooth plate Tellees by EI do not hold a candle to the real, vintage diamond bottom Tellees. Tesla ECC803 can be good ones; but just as pricey as low noise vintage ECC83s; or pricier. You wouldn't want to bet if you would prefer a Tesla ECC803 over a genuine Tellee ECC803; would you ? How about a reissue CV4004 vs. a genuine older Mullard or Brimar ? The reissue GLobes and Tennis Balls are overpriced; as are the revered EML outputs which have matching and reliability issues. No need for a comparison test....

I am also very glad newly manufactured tubes keep on coming in and some keep on getting better. I simply say "newer is not necessarily better..." Most important is the enjoyment factor. If the new stuff allows more folks to jump onboard and perpetuate this hobby/obsession, I am all for it...

 

The fuzz was hassling me and my old lady - and other bad phrases from the 60's, posted on July 23, 2016 at 07:13:54
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 It's only scary if you STILL talk like that.

Every once in a while I find myself saying something like "hey that ain't cool man" to some kid. But don't worry because one day they'll be saying something like "DOOOOO - eat my shorts" and THEIR kids and they will be looking at them funny too.

Live on and enjoy. Each decade has their own "language" and it ALL sounds silly in the end.

 

Vintage can be a better value with caveats, posted on July 27, 2016 at 18:26:12
Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000
 I am of the opinion that vintage equipment represents a better value than many new pieces.

That said, I believe that current parts quality in general is an order of magnitude better than what was available back in the day. Parts quality is the key to getting the most out of vintage equipment.

Others have pointed to the latest version of the ST-70. That is just the tip of the iceberg. For about $1000-$1200 one can have their choice of many fully restored vintage tube amps. Sherwood of course, but also Fisher, Scott, Pilot, Heathkit, Eico. 15-25wpc of wonderful tube power. There is very little if anything made today that delivers comparable quality at the same price.

Moving up in price one can have a fully restored Citation II for $2500 that is head and shoulders above anything new at the same price. The Fisher SA1000 is another amp that is difficult to better.

Many swear by the Fisher 400c preamp, which is available for about $1200-1500 fully rebuilt and with NOS tubes. Hard to beat.

A Garrard 301 or Thorens 124, fully rebuilt, with arm and cartridge can be done for $2000-2500....again hard to beat in the new world.

And most of the above mentioned vintage pieces will hold their value or appreciate in the coming years. Unlike new which will lose about 50% of value within 5yrs.....

 

RE: Current prouction versus vintage, posted on July 31, 2016 at 10:02:04
Mossback
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Washington, the State
Joined: November 17, 2001
 I have owned a number of well thought of vintage amps over the past 20 years. In all cases vacuum tube.

A rebuilt vintage amp is not guaranteed to be as reliable as a quality new amp.

Recently I went to the dark side and bought a base model VAC Sigma 160I. The VAC kills any vintage amp I ever heard.
If you want a reliable very fine sounding amp new maybe the best choice.

 

RE: Current vs. Vintage -- My tech thinks that old McIntosh is . . ., posted on July 31, 2016 at 15:40:17
goldenthal
Audiophile

Posts: 1001
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 28, 2003
 much better built than new. FWIW. I use old.


Jeremy

 

RE: The fuzz was hassling me and my old lady - and other bad phrases from the 60's, posted on August 24, 2016 at 01:19:44
SmokeTest
Audiophile

Posts: 115
Joined: November 23, 2001
 1965: cool, man
1973: far out!
2004: awesome!

It goes on.

Oh, 1927: the bees knees

 

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