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845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?

5.68.61.25
Posted on February 8, 2016 at 11:32:33
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Does anyone have first-hand experience with Sugden amps and big SETs?

I'm presently using Consonance Cyber 845 monobloc amps rated at 28 watts. They are more than powerful enough to seriously upset my neighbours when fed to my Avantgarde 102 dB efficiency speakers.

I'm thinking of switching to solid state and the new Sugden Masterclass FPA-4 power amp has been recommended. It's rated at 25 watts, pure Class A, so should be comparable in power terms with my present amp.

Many here have suggested that if I want to switch to SS without disappointment, I should go Class A. Sugden only do Class A, enjoy a good reputation, have been around for eons and build their kit very substantially.

Can anyone offer me encouragement or otherwise? Any descriptions of what sort of sound I should expect to hear appreciated.

Thanks

Peter

 

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RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 8, 2016 at 20:45:01
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 If you are used to the sound of tubes you will be sorry. Also a tube amp vs a ss amp of the same power will offer more actual power. Though it should not be an issue with your speakers. Why do you want to go ss?
Alan

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 9, 2016 at 04:26:18
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 I couldn't tell much from your link ,

Website : Blah blah blah , rah rah , sketchy info at best ...
Amplifier: looks pretty small for pure class-A , you need Heatsinks for 50 watt class-A , so i doubt its 25+25 class-a power ..


 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 9, 2016 at 05:41:10
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005

I would ask, why do you want to switch in the first place? What do you hope to accomplish with this change?

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 10, 2016 at 03:46:04
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks for replies so far.

My reasons for looking for a suitable SS amp is to increase my hours of listening and to use the amp for more than just music listening. I'd turn it on even if listening for short periods and would put my TV, etc through it.

Also, the tube amps are not dead quiet on my 102 dB speakers and many SS amps would be. They'd use far less mains power, though Class A less so that other SS amps.

Sugden have never done anything other than Class A. Some of their designs (eg A21) do get very hot, but the newer design I'm looking at (Masterclass FPA-4) gets warm rather than hot. My mains watt meter indicates consumption of about 170 watts.

Yes, Sugden's website offers little encouragement - virtually no useful information and the briefest of specs - but they enjoy a very good reputation and have never wanted to set the world on fire with fancy claims.

As far as real output power is concerned, this 25 watt Sugden is a little louder than the 28 watt 845 amps at the same preamp setting. They are happy driving my Avantgardes at very high volume without distress - as I would expect from a similarly powered Class A.

I collected a demo unit yesterday, along with a Quad Platinum. The latter sounds like solid state - very confident bass, though rather muddy and lifeless overall, no musical thrills - so that's no longer being considered.

I'll listen only to the Sugden for a few days before the real comparison with the tube amp - playing a carefully chosen list of 4 or 5 tracks on the SS, then the same on the tube amp. I did this test with the Benchmark AHB-2 that I tested recently - sadly with disappointing results.

The First Watt (and Pass Labs) offerings are also Class A but are little known in UK and are over-priced here - as most US-made stuff is. Their circuits seem to be more wasteful of mains energy than Sugden's newer circuits.

I'll report back in a few days, but other SS suggestions (including digital amps) appreciated in the meantime.

Peter

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 14, 2016 at 07:35:16
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Did a comparison between KR Audio VA350 and Sugden Masterclass...the KR destroyed it... Better in every way, including perceived power.

 

Do consider Nelson Pass's all-class-A and all-JFET J2 amp, posted on February 14, 2016 at 14:40:35
jeffreybehr
Audiophile

Posts: 5719
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Joined: December 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 13, 2004
 I have a pair (currently for sale) that I used and loved with my 97dB Serenity Super-7s.
photo 2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg

But I wanted more power for my 87dB-(in)sensitive Avanti-IIIs and bought a c-j ET250S that uses 6DJ8s in its frontend. It, too, sounds excellent with the S7s.

With Pass's approval and instructions, I wired the two channels of each of mine in parallel. Max-power rating changed from 25WPC into 8 and 13WPC into 4 to 25 Watts per chassis into 8 and 50 watts per chassis into 4.
Bindingpost jumper photo 2014Dec26_bindingpostjumper_1200w_zps34a4e84c.jpg

Mine are slightly improved; e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net if you want more info.

FWIW, I've had SETs based on 805s (Antique Sound Lab Explorers), 845s (again, ASLs), 300Bs (Coincident Frankenstein IIs, the worst of the bunch), and 13EM7s (Roger Mojeski's), and I'm finished fooling with amps that use vacuumtube output stages.

 

Do not assume SS amplifiers will offer less noise over tube, posted on February 22, 2016 at 06:41:06
Kloss
 While many poorly designed tube amps can have noise. Many dont and I run tubes on a few 110db horns without issues I also have SS about and even some of the better SS had weird noises when connected to hi eff I highly doubt most SS amp designers use a hi eff loudspeaker when designing. Many of the noises I've heard can be slight but definitely not musical and a distraction. Also the power of many SS designs will be hard to control on hi eff, on one system I run 60 watt SS with horns I have basically little volume control since its more on and off running pre or integrated with massive attenuation isn't the best sounding way for horns.

 

RE: Do not assume SS amplifiers will offer less noise over tube, posted on February 22, 2016 at 07:12:56
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks Kloss. My 845-based monos are not as dead silent as I'd like and I'm in the process of changing all the tubes. Unfortunately one of the recently arrived 845T Mk II tubes was faulty assembled (the locking pin was incorrectly placed in relation to the base pins) and I'm awaiting a replacement pair. I'm hoping these will improve the sound and reduce noise.

However, it's still my intention to change to SS and I home tested the new Sugden over the last couple of weeks. Despite it's published poor S/N ratio (only 82dB), it was in fact very quiet. However the sound was no better than the 845, apart from tighter bass control, so I'm looking further afield.

There are relatively few builders of Class A amps, but First Watt (ugly beasts) and Pass Labs were suggested along with a couple of others. One suggestion was for the very expensive and not often seen outside Japan - Accuphase. They build a few Class A amps including the A-36 30 watt power amp. Because of it's low output, I'm certain it will have been designed with high efficiency speakers in mind. The S/N ratio is quoted as 112 dB, improving to 120 if the built-in gain switch is changed from Max (gain of 28 dB) to -12 dB. This is far better than any tube amp and it's very useful to have the option of 4 different gain settings. In fact it looks like it might be the best SS amp for high efficiency speakers on the market, albeit looking rather like an entry from the 1980 HiFi Yearbook! I've ordered one! Keeping fingers crossed it's up to expectations.

Peter

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 26, 2016 at 15:28:26
egidius
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: centre of europe, center of sound
Joined: May 28, 2009
 Hi
I can answer on Sugden and Accuphase. I used to own the MP4 MAsterclass amp, and at the same time an Accuphase E550 class A integrated.
Loved both and made me forget the Conrad Johnson Premier 11A I had. That says something.
I find Sugden slightly more colourful - and right - than the seamless clarity of the Accuphase, even though they had something persuasive and pristine in sound.
I have since then switched to Berning amps, the ZH270, 230, and lately the Q'z. Never looked back. Will not get rid of those. The ZH270 had the clarity of the Accuphase, was a bit cooler than the Sugden, but oh, so fast. Sugden ist not slow, but Berning has an unmatched agility that is utterly convincing.

Sorry not to be helpful on SET - I could not use them.

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 26, 2016 at 17:01:07
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks for your suggestions. Since I started this thread I've had on home demo the new Sugden FPA-4 power amp and a Quad Platinum. The Sugden was pretty good, but I thought was still not as enjoyable to listen to as the 845 tube amps.

I then spotted a rare used Accuphase A-36 power amp for sale in Denmark. I bought it unseen and unheard and it arrived yesterday. Initial impression is favourable. I understand your "clarity" comment (and I think I read " slightly cool" between the lines), but I'll enjoy it for a couple of weeks (to get accustomed to its sound) before doing a comparison with the newly re-valved 845s. I'll post in due course.

Peter

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 27, 2016 at 23:17:42
egidius
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Location: centre of europe, center of sound
Joined: May 28, 2009
 Awesome! The A-36 is supposed to be one of the best A'phase amps. Whatever my personal feelings about is, this is way up there with the best amps - nowadays you would pay a fortune for an aequivalent thing.

My own path led me to OTL's that's all. This reflects the fact that I prefer the speed and openness of an OTL to the lush colours of a Class A amp. Of course me being a violinist I can fool myself and say I need this for my monitoring sessions, even though my good Jecklin headphones would do for that (Also with an OTL Berning MicroZOTL headphone amp ;-) )



PS But then maybe a 845 would not be for me either, but I have never had one.

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 28, 2016 at 00:43:00
Greg W
Audiophile

Posts: 189
Location: Wyoming
Joined: March 4, 2001
 I also own the Opera Consonance Cyber 845s mono blocks and enjoy them very much, my speakers are rated at 90db but they use first order crossovers so are fairly efficient and the 845s drives them just fine. If I was going to try to replace them with a ss design I would be looking at First Watt.
Another Class A amp you may want to consider is the Lindell AMPX, a Swedish design amp that is made in China.
Here is a link to the Stereophile review:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/lindell-ampx-power-amplifier#h4XkqGeihRZziHH1.97

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 28, 2016 at 02:26:09
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Thanks for the Accuphase comments. I have it in my system now, but it will take a couple of weeks to form a worthwhile opinion. The A-36 is a new model (introduced about a year ago I believe) that is claimed to have appreciable improvements over the A-35 and the much earlier A-30 on which it is based

The only OTL I've had is a Graaf GM20. A beautiful and lovely sounding amp, let down by being mechanically noisy - the thing made a constant buzzing sound. I then did a deal with Art Audio (offering a London demo centre for their equipment), so had the use of a couple of their excellent SETs - PX-25 and 845-based Carissa.

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 28, 2016 at 02:40:32
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2381
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Good to hear from a fellow Cyber 845 user. I had the Lindell/ Audreal / Xindak amp in my list of possibles, but I suspect only the Xindak version (they're all the same inside I understand) is available in UK. Unfortunately the only dealer is 400+ miles from me so I've not heard it - even if he happens to have a demo unit in stock.

However, as I've mentioned elsewhere I've just found and bought a nearly new Accuphase A-36 Class A power amp. So far very good but will listen for a couple of weeks before comment and comparison with my newly re-valved (inc 845T Mk II) Cybers.

Peter

 

RE: 845 SET vs 25 Watt Class A Sugden Amp?, posted on February 29, 2016 at 21:39:33
Greg W
Audiophile

Posts: 189
Location: Wyoming
Joined: March 4, 2001
 I didn't realize the Lindell AMPX was the same amp as the Xindak, personally, I would stay away from the Xindak, I have a Xindak $1300 SCD-2 SACD player that is now a doorstop as I can't get repair parts for the transport.

I'm sure that Accuphase sounds great but be sure to put in at least 25 hours on those new tubes before you compare the two, I also am using the Psvane 845T MKII tubes.

 

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