Amp/Preamp Asylum

Looking for a new Amp or Preamp? If you're after tubes, post over here.

Return to Amp/Preamp Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

If Nearly All Amplifiers Are Conceptually Wrong

208.123.32.107
Posted on September 26, 2015 at 08:24:27
geezerrocket
 It would seem to me there would be a golden opportunity for the one that believes this to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, to get into amplifier design and manufacturing and corner the market.

Who cares what others wish to listen to there music on!

We all know conceptually that it's healthier to eat right and not be obese, but take a look around.













 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
armchair electrical engineers, posted on September 26, 2015 at 08:30:37
bullethead
 there are lots of armchair engineers here, I avoid them.

 

Indeed, posted on September 26, 2015 at 08:59:53
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13976
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 Victor Khomenko, John Curl, Charles Hansen are quailifed EEs who know
whereof they speak. There are others whose names escape me at the moment. If one of them says something, I give it a lot of credence.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

I think you could add Bruno Putseys to that list. His amps, preamps, and soon dac are all ground breaking...nt, posted on September 26, 2015 at 09:06:45
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 nt

 

RE: If Nearly All Amplifiers Are Conceptually Wrong, posted on September 26, 2015 at 13:40:35
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 ACtually musical scales are pretty much all wrong. To fit within an octave mathematically each 12th is slightly flat. Don't blame the messenger

 

RE: If Nearly All Amplifiers Are Conceptually Wrong, posted on September 26, 2015 at 14:50:06
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > It would seem to me there would be a golden opportunity for the one that believes this to be the truth, the whole truth,
> and nothing but the truth, to get into amplifier design and manufacturing and corner the market.

First of all, the market is not that large; and secondly, you would need to convince the majority of customers that your design is better than all the other designs. It would also have to be affordable.

The difficulty would be in convincing everyone that other amplifiers don't really sound good. It has been my experience that of all components except possibly CD players, power amplifier exhibit the least differences in sound quality compared to preamps, phono cartridges, turntables, and speakers.

Therefore, it's probably not worth going into business, but it might be worth buying or building your own idea of a correctly designed amplifier for your own system. As far as I'm concerned, I'm perfectly happy with my Parasound Halo A21 power amplifier driving my Thiel CS3.7 speakers. In fact, I'm overjoyed with the sound quality of my system and I can't even imagine how it could be improved. I just hope this feeling lasts the rest of my life. ;-)

Best regards,
John Elison

 

Good and obvious reasons why there are many types of amps, just like there are many flavors of ice cream...nt, posted on September 26, 2015 at 15:38:02
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 nt

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, posted on September 26, 2015 at 19:17:45
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Do you have ANY idea how boring your Premise is?

 

RE: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, posted on September 26, 2015 at 22:54:55
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Actually he is talking about the post below from Moricab
Alan

 

And yet, posted on September 27, 2015 at 06:49:00
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 each of those designers along with Nelson Pass employ a number of Brad's criteria where possible in their amplifiers. Class A operation using zero feedback is quite typical with line sources. My ARC preamp is designed that way.

-Class A operation
-Zero or little corrective feedback
-Single ended operation
-Large transformer (if necessary)

Both Victor and John praise the linearity of triodes. Victor uses them for both line level and power output (6H30 "super tube" and 6C33, respectively) while John uses them as a goal post. Both employ low levels of feedback with their amps and zero with their preamps using discrete components.

Charles Hansen uses zero feedback with his MK-R and KX-R designs.

It is true that it isn't practical to make single ended amplifiers with higher than flea power. Consequently, most all are push pull. Nelson Pass' SIT-1 meets all of Brad's criteria but is limited to 10 watts output. On the other hand, the 300 watt Xs300 is Class A with "small" amounts of feedback and uses a single ended front end. He gets as much goodness as possible with a high powered design modeled after what he considers the "striking" performance of the SIT-1.

 

Proving yet again, posted on September 27, 2015 at 09:21:03
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13976
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 that there is no one right way to build an amp.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

What if..., posted on September 27, 2015 at 10:41:18
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 a company like Semi-South (which unfortunately is no longer in business) could fabricate a 150-200 watt static induction transistor? Now, that would be a game changer! A two hundred watt single transistor amp.

It could bridge the gap between what those guys know about making the best sounding amplifier and the current limitations of output device technology.

 

The premise IS boring..., posted on September 27, 2015 at 11:21:40
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 but NOT of his making.

I read his post as the anti-premise of the premise.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Indeed, posted on September 27, 2015 at 11:43:51
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "If one of them says something, I give it a lot of credence."

"Victor Khomenko, John Curl, Charles Hansen are quailifed EEs who know
whereof they speak. ... If one of them says something, I give it a lot of credence."

Me too!

And in terms of experiential results... I also give great credence to AA posts. But when it comes to explanations, well, they are best taken with a grain of salt.

And that makes perfect sense to me: Very few posters have a clue about specifying, designing, producing or measuring electronic products, and why should they? This is our hobby, not our jobs! But, we all know and how stuff should sound, and we care...

I happen to have been lucky? enough to have spent my working life in the Electronics industry (yes, the USA did once have one) and I've been on all sides of the various fences. The biggest thing I notice here is that users usually don't clearly understand the roles and limitations of product and engineering specifications and the inevitable instance variations in production. And why should they, shoot, most of the marketing people don't either! Sorry, couldn't resist...

Anyway, let me tell you from extensive experience that it's virtually impossible to nail down the performance specifications and tolerances tight enough for anything that is tightly coupled to our senses, especially sight and sound from my experience (but I bet our local vintners would plump for taste and smell), to the point that two instances of the same product will be indistinguishable, let alone equally desirable. That's life, we are sensitive creatures. Sniff...

It really doesn't take golden ears or an epicurean palate to hear, taste or smell the differences although not all differences will be sensible to all people. Just the luck of the genes and life history. But do they matter? Ah, that's the rub. Speaking of music and wine, a $12 bottle of wine will probably improve the sound of a fairly decent system more than any other tweak. And listening to pleasurable music will likely enhance the enjoyment of good spirits. AND having the right person next to you on the couch? Perhaps the best tweak of them all...

Rick




 

RE: And yet, posted on September 27, 2015 at 14:00:58
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Which Brad are we talking about , x-spectral ..?

 

"Morricab", posted on September 27, 2015 at 15:48:26
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 from an earlier post.

 

Have you heard Curl's JC-1 amps?, posted on September 27, 2015 at 18:28:53
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Similar to yours, but stay in class A longer with even larger power supply.

I heard a pair a while back driving Sound Lab 945s using his Blow Torch preamp. Very nice sounding indeed.

You may be aware of this interview where he expounds on his design strategy. The summary?

"Q: That's about all the time we have. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
JC: That's about it. We keep working on trying to make amplifiers faster, use less feedback and that sort of thing. I'm working on a new pre amp of my own manufacture."

 

RE: Have you heard Curl's JC-1 amps?, posted on September 27, 2015 at 19:00:43
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 The JC-1 have nothing in common with the A21 apart from the chassis , the JC-1 is a John Curl design the A21 not so much and they are sonically miles apart ..

 

Agreed! Take these two opinions of the same Pass amp, for example to show how opinions can differ......, posted on September 27, 2015 at 19:10:27
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Comments from poster Burrows on diyaudio.com on his Pass amp:

"A colored amp can easily hide a problem source, for example, as the NC-400 is really just a clear window on the rest of the system. I directly compared my NC-400 amp to my PASS X150.5, for example, and heard more detail (more finely structured low level harmonics, better timbre) and better control over the speakers for more finely detailed bass. I heard this differences throughout the entire frequency range. No synthetic sound in my system whatsoever. This is why I use NC-400, as I build DIY DACs, and like to hear what they really sound like, rather than the sound of a cloudy colored amp."

From an audioasylum review of the same Pass amp by "the analog kid":

"The final characteristic of this amp that merits mention is the naturalness of tone. It is an EXTREMELY realistic and natural sounding amp - warm, clean, clear, and transparent. But it is NOT high on the liquidity scale. For those seeking that "drip from the walls" sound, this amp will strike you as comparatively sterile. However, I find it the closest sound to "the real thing" I've yet experienced, and it is the PERFECT mate for the Forests, which perform SO far beyond the envelope now it's frightening."



 

"the A21 not so much ", posted on September 27, 2015 at 20:49:46
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Hmmm.

Parasound doesn't agree with you. :)

Model Halo A21

 

RE: "the A21 not so much ", posted on September 27, 2015 at 21:18:01
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Still struggling with the comprehension I see and I guess they don't agree with the designer too , as it was from the horses mouth , to my ears and i have had both to confirm its not even close , the A21 is a washed down design where the JC- 1 is all curl and the only one he considers as such, the A21 is just enough to say JC design , as i said earlier, its a some what model ....

 

RE: "the A21 not so much ", posted on September 28, 2015 at 00:22:11
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I have a pair of the A23 and SOMEWHERE in my stack of email is a post from JC which while NOT exactly super detailed does support his involvement in the 21/23 design process, but not all the way thru production. It's kind of a fine point and I really DO enjoy my pair of 23s with my panels.
I don't think they are THAT far from the JC1 which I heard with Janszen speakers.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Have you heard Curl's JC-1 amps?, posted on September 28, 2015 at 03:48:12
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Since they are both conceptually wrong and in the same way I would be surprised if they sound radically different. Different kinds of wrong perhaps...

 

RE: What if..., posted on September 28, 2015 at 03:57:26
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I would definitely try it out! My adventure with single ended MOSFET output left me not completely satisfied (100 watt SE(T=Mosfet) hybrid...NAT Symbiosis SE) even though it was very very very good overall. Based on the SIT descriptions by Srajan (if those are in some way to be trusted...I have personal experience to doubt the man's reports) it would still miss some things but I will one day hopefully get to the hear the 10 watter.

If the SIT has a more linear transfer function than a MOSFET then I guess it has great potential...especially as it doesn't need another stage or output transformer.

You are right that they all try something getting some of the ideas in place but in the end they bow to the market desire for power and then go to push pull and or Class A/B...which ultimately screws up the harmonic distortion pattern.

 

"NC-400 is really just a clear window on the rest of the system" - just stop right there., posted on September 28, 2015 at 05:23:33
Beef Guinness Cutie Pie
Audiophile

Posts: 136
Joined: December 29, 2011
 Since there's no such thing in exsitence, that bit simply shows the author's lack of experience - and nothing else.

Unless you left out a continuation, where he goes on to explain what the trade-offs are - IOW, what's wrong with that amp otherwise.

 

Yep, posted on September 28, 2015 at 05:25:22
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 That's what Curl says.

"The other Halo Parasound amps only get my design contribution..."

 

RE: Have you heard Curl's JC-1 amps?, posted on September 28, 2015 at 05:37:24
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Yep conceptually wrong amps do sound different imagine that .....

 

Opinions differ...Just the messenger but he is very experienced: barrows on diyaudio.com , posted on September 28, 2015 at 06:04:59
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 This post was made to simply show how opinions, even about the same equipment, can differ.

Do you have experience with the ncore? Or is this a kettle/black thing?

 

RE: Yep, proving my point again , as you always do ......., posted on September 28, 2015 at 07:08:30
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
There's a good A21 story with Curl and what got him to try one at home, one day.



Regards ..

 

Ok, posted on September 28, 2015 at 09:04:55
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Perhaps there are similar stories for when Nelson Pass auditioned any of his designs implemented by others.

 

Re: There's a good A21 story with Curl..., posted on September 28, 2015 at 09:35:34
Inmate51
 ...and what got him to try one at home, one day.

Posted by A.Wayne: "There's a good A21 story with Curl and what got him to try one at home, one day."

Ok, what is it? Or, it's BS.

I'm not apologizing for being blunt. If you allude to a story, reference or tell it, or it's BS.

 

Well, posted on September 28, 2015 at 09:57:31
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 they bow to the market desire for power and then go to push pull and or Class A/B

It's not the market that caused me to purchase a push-pull AB amp. It was the speakers. :)

 

Re: There's a good A21 story with Curl..., posted on September 28, 2015 at 11:01:10
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Then help yourself to some eat up , err not trying to be blunt , just saying ....

 

Re: There's a good A21 story with Curl..., posted on September 28, 2015 at 12:18:56
Inmate51
 "Then help yourself to some eat up , err not trying to be blunt ,"

I don't know what "eat up" is. In any case, that doesn't answer my question.

Where/what is the story you're referencing, or is it BS?

 

RE: Well, posted on September 28, 2015 at 13:28:46
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I have never heard electrostats sound better than with top notch SETs...

 

RE: Well, posted on September 28, 2015 at 13:53:22
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Morri , Attach some names to them bones , top Notch SET ..?

 

Wavacs are outside my budget :) -nt, posted on September 28, 2015 at 14:37:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 .

 

RE: Well, posted on September 29, 2015 at 08:24:01
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 We've already been down this road, A. Wayne...no need to do it again...

 

RE: Wavacs are outside my budget :) -nt, posted on September 29, 2015 at 08:24:40
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Mine too, at least the more desireable models...

 

RE: Wavacs are outside my budget :) -nt, posted on September 29, 2015 at 11:10:33
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Forget WAVAC , Hypex fits your Budget, try 3 , you know you want to ...

ROFLMAO :)

 

RE: Well, posted on September 29, 2015 at 11:16:13
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Is this the "one" ...? JJ 322 parallel SET

 

RE: Well, posted on September 29, 2015 at 14:21:52
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Is this the one what? Yes, it is one of the amps I own. The others are a pair of Wall Audio M50s and the last is a Pure Sound A30 for the TV system.

There used to be a good review on the internet in Polish that had nice measurements but it seems to be now deactivated (it was from about 2000 or 2001). I wish now I had downloaded the .pdf and saved it. The amp makes it to 15 watts (in either 4 or 8 ohm tap when load is matched) with 1% THD. The frequency response was flat to 20Khz and down 3db at 35Khz. The harmonic pattern at 1 watt and 1Khz looks quite good as well with decreasing distortion with increasing harmonic number with nothing much beyond 6th.

A greek magazine has some basic measurements like THD and frequency response that agree with the Polish magazine.

The amp made a lot of noise in 2000, winning a major design award, but like all things time passes on and people tend to forget. It is a very good sounding amp, well designed and using very good parts...especially the output transformers. Is it SOTA? No, but it is getting close for reasonable money.

 

RE: Well, posted on September 29, 2015 at 14:53:04
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011



Ever heard Walcot ..? Audio Art in your neck of the woods is a dealer ...

 

RE: Well, posted on September 30, 2015 at 06:58:35
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Never heard them but interestingly they use some form of POSITIVE feedback...supposedly great with electrostats but otherwise??? Plus, its push/pull...so you know...conceptually wrong.

 

RE: Wavacs are outside my budget :) -nt, posted on September 30, 2015 at 07:00:43
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I actually have tried Hypex...UcD.

 

RE: Well, same for SET's, posted on September 30, 2015 at 07:05:58
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Yeah but SET's as you know are conceptually wrong and cant drive bat poop, but some like them ... :)


I like what he has done with those Walcotts, no where to hear them thou, Audio Arts is in Switzerland are they still around..?

 

RE: Well, same for SET's, posted on September 30, 2015 at 13:43:44
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I use amps to drive loudspeakers and you seem to use them to drive bat poop...I guess that goes a long way towards explaining our different points of view ;-).

No idea where Audio Arts is located...I know Switzerland is not big but it is not that small!

 

RE: Audio Arts , posted on September 30, 2015 at 14:49:42
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011



Hofwiesenstr.
267 CH-8050
Z

 

RE: Audio Arts , posted on October 1, 2015 at 07:54:47
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I lived 10 years near that location (I lived in the same postcode) and I never heard of this company. I thought I knew all shops/manufacturers in my area so probably they have been out of business for a long time.

 

Page processed in 0.039 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]