What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling?

RE: What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling? , posted on July 24, 2015 at 12:34:18
AudioSoul Audiophile Posts: 4594 Location: north central AZ Joined: July 9, 2005	Either Shindo or Leben......

Leben, posted on July 24, 2015 at 13:52:48
mbnx01 Audiophile Posts: 7956 Location: Eagle, Idaho Joined: October 22, 2004	Thanks. I see their importer will not pick up the phone, email only. And the manufacturers webpage says they will not sell parts or service to anyone not the original owner. WTF? So many crazy companies in the world. 'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

If you don't like the policy, then don't buy a used Leben. How are they "crazy"?, posted on July 25, 2015 at 07:42:03
robertd Audiophile Posts: 323 Joined: April 24, 2009	Without them there would be no Leben amps. They choose to limit their service to original purchases, that's just their prerogative. And somehow people keep buying them. In this game it's best to research these issues before buying. Because you're not just buying an amp, you're buying the company that made it and that you may need to turn to for service. fight the good fight

It will come back to bite them., posted on July 25, 2015 at 15:58:59

jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000

Inevitable really, as fear of buying an item not supported by the manufacturer 'trickles up' to damage primary sales. Why? No point spending big bucks on a Leben amp unless you are going to keep it forever, because chances are, no one else will buy it from you if its unsupported.

As Terry indicates below, this is hardly a market-building strategy.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

Here's how they are crazy, or at least not thinking long-term, posted on July 25, 2015 at 19:38:18

Terry P

They clearly haven't done any product scenario analysis which would likely show that their policy looks good in the short-run but is very bad in the long-run.

Why? The secondary market will eventually disappear as potential buyers learn that they can't obtain authorized service or actual parts for service through an independent shop. They may be content to have different internal parts that could change the sound of the product, but they would likely be disturbed to learn that if a knob or the faceplate is scratched or worn they are SOL because it cannot be repaired. As potential buyers realize this the secondary market is destroyed due to prices coming down due to lack of buyers.

Maybe the dealer will take trade-ins if an original purchaser wants to move up the manufacturer's line. Due to the declining secondary market, and the fact that the dealer must tell a potential buyer of the used product that he (the buyer) will not be able to get service or parts for it, the dealer could offer a very low trade-in value for the unit. And the dealer may not even take trade-ins since he really needs to be honest and tell potential buyers of a used unit that they won't be able to get authorized service or parts for it. Again, an absolute disaster for cosmetic issues, which would be a dis-incentive for even non-audiophiles.

Again, with policy like this, it could be beneficial for the manufacturer in the short-run as buyers would want to go to authorized dealers for new units.

But once you buy it, you're stuck with it for life. Maybe they have a unique market. This may not be an issue for their market. Only time will tell.

RE: Leben, posted on July 25, 2015 at 19:58:52
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	This is the type of elitist bullshit company that makes a joke of the hobby. Typical overpriced, low volume Japanese boutique gear. Heard several pieces..nothing special.

Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 04:39:49
Dynobot	This way people will buy new and keep the company in business, gaining the comfort of knowing they have a warranty. Plus its hard to find a Leben on the used market anyway.....which should tell people something about the product. On the other hand the used market is FULL of Audio Research...which seems to always break down.

Crazy Company in Business for 23 years and going Strong...nt, posted on July 26, 2015 at 06:28:07
Dynobot	.

thank you, that's a very helpful post, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:07:56
mbnx01 Audiophile Posts: 7956 Location: Eagle, Idaho Joined: October 22, 2004	Well played, Sir, well played. 'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

If the car business was like the hi fi business, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:10:33
mbnx01 Audiophile Posts: 7956 Location: Eagle, Idaho Joined: October 22, 2004	Did you hear the new policy from Honda? They will not provide parts or service to anyone but the original owner of any Honda vehicle. They're afraid people are buying grey market Honda's and they think this will stop that and have no other impact on their business. 'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

RE: thank you, that's a very helpful post, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:31:25
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	FYI..the operative word for what I heard was "thin".

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:44:21

Terry P

It is, you are correct. One that may not work in the long-run. You mentioned that they have been in business 23 years. Japan maybe, but certainly not in the USA that long. The USA is a different market.

You also mention Audio Research and the fact that their products are always available on the secondary market. Not due to breakdown as you assert, but due to the fact that the company has been in business for 45 years, nearly twice as long as Leben and all of it in the USA market. Their products are available on the secondary market because you can get them repaired if necessary. Buyers can move into expensive equipment by buying it on the secondary market and then move up the line, or buy more products, if they like the product line.

It doesn't appear that Leben has this opportunity for potential buyers with their "business plan".

RE: If the car business was like the hi fi business, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:45:37
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	I've been to Japan many times. Love the place, but I can tell you that snobbery is a big part of the culture..got a lot of if from the french who they worship. Leben, like the other boutique has the typical mystique of being hard to find. Personally, I have little patience for importers who don't list prices or dealers.

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 11:51:17
Dynobot	For some reason I don't think Leben depends on the American market to stay afloat.

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 12:07:20

Terry P

"For some reason I don't think Leben depends on the American market to stay afloat."

I'm sure you are correct in that statement. But they did expand to the USA market and I'm fairly certain they did it for potential growth. However, after this thread, I'm now also fairly certain that it is perceived as a luxury brand with customer-desired retro styling and in a different market than most high-end audio equipment. They sell to a buy once and keep it forever customer.

That works until potential customers start asking "what if I don't like it?". Then you get into the long-run scenario I described previously.

There's nothing wrong with a business plan such as theirs. It simply puts a major constriction on the number of potential customers. The luxury market is different from audiophile-land so it may not matter.

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 12:23:15

Dynobot

In business its all about Economies of Scale.

If its just you and two to three people you might want your product sales to be at a moderate level as to keep the flow of parts at a minimum and investments in stock and other over head at a reasonable number. For example, loosening up restrictions or using other measures to increase sales = increasing stock, labor, etc and slowing production or hiring more people and increasing space.

A prudent business person forgoes greed and settles on a sustainable business plan which can be maintained for the long run without massive debt, inventory, employees etc.

I suspect Leben, like STAX and many other Japanese companies are comfortable with their business plan as is, and not in a rush to become the next LG.

Just my .02

:-)

RE: What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling? , posted on July 26, 2015 at 12:29:00
Jack D II Audiophile Posts: 1535 Location: Hot Springs, AR Joined: June 17, 2009	I seem to remember that the designer and engineer of Shindo products died not too long ago.

And I have zero patience, posted on July 26, 2015 at 12:35:38
mbnx01 Audiophile Posts: 7956 Location: Eagle, Idaho Joined: October 22, 2004	For importers who won't talk to you on the phone and are really slow at replying to emails. 'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

If it's true they are indeed beyond crazy..., posted on July 26, 2015 at 12:46:55
jbcortes Audiophile Posts: 1399 Joined: July 6, 2000	Totally puzzles me why a company would want to do that. Isn't that even illegal? I can understand offering a non-transferrable warranty (uncool by hey) but refuse service and parts to anyone not the original owner?????

RE: Leben, posted on July 26, 2015 at 13:00:34

Dave_K

Thanks. I see their importer will not pick up the phone, email only. And the manufacturers webpage says they will not sell parts or service to anyone not the original owner.

Actually, it says this:

If "Leben" product is: (1)Directly imported by you from another country, (2)Purchased directly from a dealer OVERSEAS, (3)Acquired by you from an UNAUTHORIZED DEALER, (4)Considered gray market product and no Warranty Card accompanied, All Product Warranties by Leben are NULL and VOID. In addition, Leben will not supply parts and/or service for any "Leben" product without proof of purchase from a Leben Authorized Dealer.

My interpretation of that is that they won't service a gray market unit. It doesn't say anything about the original owner. So if you are buying used, you had better get a copy of the sales receipt from the original owner.

Also, if you want the importer's phone number (Tone Imports), it's on the Contact page of the Leben site.

I have heard of other audio manufacturers/importers taking the same position. Sonus Faber, for example. See Sumiko's policy here: http://www.audiogon.com/samp/sumiko/

The policy seems a bit drastic and I hope they don't go around denying service to people without a sales receipt, since they ought to be able to figure out where a product was sold based on the serial number. I also think that the gray market shouldn't be a significant problem as long as the products maintain relative price parity from one market to the next. I don't know much about Leben pricing, but Accuphase sells for ~1/2 price in Japan compared in Europe and North America, and hence there is a strong gray market. Same for Luxman I think.

RE: Leben, posted on July 26, 2015 at 13:12:40
mbnx01 Audiophile Posts: 7956 Location: Eagle, Idaho Joined: October 22, 2004	Yes, I have the importers phone number. But so far they don't pick up the phone or return messages. That and the 'we hate grey market people so much we'll refuse to service legitimate customers' persuades me to take my business elsewhere. 'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 15:32:10
Terry P	We're in total agreement (as long as the company wants to remain very small).

RE: Sounds like a Business Plan, posted on July 26, 2015 at 16:15:47
Dynobot	Agreed :-)

I interpret as addressing grey market sales as well. And I understand that., posted on July 27, 2015 at 14:11:15
robertd Audiophile Posts: 323 Joined: April 24, 2009	Why have people who bought outside the country harass the dealers/distributor in the country for service, when they haven't received the rewards of the sale? And they may just want to discourage the whole grey market thing because it dilutes the value of being an authorized leben dealer. No problem with either consideration. fight the good fight

Sounds reasonable, posted on July 27, 2015 at 14:16:11
robertd Audiophile Posts: 323 Joined: April 24, 2009	With a small operation you may be compromising quality if you try to stretch your production. And they may be at a spot they like. As others mentioned, you don't see a lot of used leben on the market. I know spectral can be a bit finicky, but I believe part of it is their desire to limit production volumes to maintain quality. It pays off. fight the good fight

RE: Sounds reasonable, posted on July 28, 2015 at 13:29:53
Dynobot	Yes it does pay off. Plus the last thing a company would want is someone trying to buy up old/damaged gear then ordering parts, fixing them and flooding the market with refurbished gear at a discounted price.

No Leben Dor Me, posted on July 28, 2015 at 19:26:15
Ross Audiophile Posts: 1814 Joined: January 24, 2000	To bad, because it is a brand that I wanted to investigate based upon reviews. I tend to buy used equipment, and Leben's repair policy makes purchasing a used Leben product too much of a crapshoot.

RE: What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling? , posted on July 29, 2015 at 12:56:09

Mechans
Audiophile

Posts: 1804
Location: East Coast
Joined: May 23, 2004

I am not defending the apparent snobbery, but they don't say they won't service your amp. The only requirement is they say that it was bought originally from an authorized dealer. If you can trace the history of the amp back to the original sale, you should be OK. That is as long as it was bought from a legitimate dealer.
But who needs to go through this BS LOL. You should see the About Leben on their website. They do make it sound like you are given the privilege to over pay for your amp from a guy that doesn't give a S*** if you buy it. Read it you'll see what I mean.

RE: What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling? , posted on August 2, 2015 at 14:46:53

triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008

This is kinda the Ferrari approach to audio. Certain Ferrari models, you have to be ASKED if you'd like to buy one. These are $1~$2 + million cars; their production runs are typically sold out before the first unit comes off the line. This works well for "boutique" markets, but the real money comes from the mass market. So now that Fiat owns Ferrari, you'll see they are trying to come up with a model where they can sell zillions of them, while still peddling the "exclusive" Ferrari cachet. None of this has ANYTHING to do with the quality of the cars, it has EVERYTHING to do with marketing and money.

Same for audio. There are good and bad boutique products, as well as good and bad mass market products. With the boutique item, you are buying exclusivity. Doesn't make it sound better, but boosts the ego of some owners. "I can own this and you can't."

Ha ha that's just another way the Man keeps us down.....
Science doesn't care what you believe.

Not quite ferrari, posted on August 4, 2015 at 18:58:18
robertd Audiophile Posts: 323 Joined: April 24, 2009	These Lebens are relatively cheap in the high end world. Integrated tube amps less than 5K. And they have a great reputation. Ferraris mentioned are more expensive than almost any other luxury car. Trying to come up with a high end analog, maybe some of the crazy Audio Note, the new d'agostino, boulder, other cost no object pieces costing more than $50K. fight the good fight

Amp/Preamp Asylum

What's the green & gold integrated with retro styling?

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