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Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?

96.250.127.20
Posted on July 16, 2015 at 19:53:23
Mel
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Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Looking for a recommendation for an amplifier to drive a newly upgraded Von Schweikert speaker. Upgrade has heavily danped woofers with very heavily damped transmission line. My own amplifier, a Sim W-5, sounds beautiful on mids and higher, but anemic on bass. Need a higher damping factor, I am told.

It's been a very long time since I bought an amp.

Parasound A21 has been recommended.

Any suggestions? Tubes?

Thanks,

Mel

 

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Bryston amps have high damping factors *, posted on July 16, 2015 at 19:56:16
Mike K
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Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:08:32
Mr Peabody
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 Both Parasound and Bryston would be good, along with them look at Krell. A beast of an amp for reasonable is the ATI, I'd recommend at least a 3000 series, these amps have two power cords and require a 20 amp outlet. You might also consider a used Pass X250 or better, but seems a waster just for bass, LOL. Coda would also drive your speakers.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:09:38
neolith
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 The damping factor of the amplifier should not be of any concern. The damping factor is defined as the load impedance divided by the output impedance of the amplifier. For standardization the industry sets the speaker impedance at 8 ohms. Now assume your amplifier has an output impedance of zero (DF = infinity) but you have a DCR of 0.3 ohms from the LP filter and your cables have another 0.1 ohms of resistance and finally speaker impedance is 6 ohms then now your effective DF is 6/(0 + 0.3 + .1) or 20 despite the amplifier having a rating of infinity.
FWIW your Simaudio amp has a calculated DF of 533.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:20:18
Mel
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 Thanks for the info, even if a bit over my head.

Can you speculate as to why the Sim W-5, despite being a bass beast with almost all speakers (including mine before the upgrade) cannot successfully drive a heavily damped woofer system? Kal Rubinson made this same point in his review of the amp 16 years ago.

Mel

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:21:11
Mr Peabody
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 You mentioned tubes, wrong choice for driving woofers, you need high current solid state. Unless willing to buy used the A21 is more likely to be your best bang for buck.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:36:49
neolith
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 Sorry, I'm a Maggie guy so I don't get into transmission lines and cabinet damping. I can only speculate that perhaps you got too much of a good thing and your speakers are overdamped. In theory your amp should have plenty of juice for the von Schweikerts which are supersensitive compared to the Magnepan line.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:42:30
Caucasian Blackplate
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 Your boxes are overstuffed.

Neolith is absolutely correct, the contributions of the crossover network and speaker cable are more significant than the output impedance of the amplifier.

Did the factory do this upgrade?

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:45:25
Mel
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 Well, they cannot be too overdamped, for when I substituted a VERY old Dynaco SS amp, the bass returned. And I hear they are great with the Parasound.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 20:52:59
Tidycat1
 Possibly a Symphonic Line RG-1 MK2/3,the Pass x series or Red Dragon m1000s.I did not look to see if you were balanced or single-ended as far as pre/li estage goes.The first two will offer more warmth.The RDs are very linear(ie:flat freq).Depending on your room,system flavorings and personal preference.
Do you have a price-point you are trying to hit??
Possibly one of the PBN stereo units.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 21:02:25
John Elison
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 You should probably try the Parasound A21. I think it is an outstanding amplifier and it drives my 3-ohm Thiel CS3.7's perfectly. It would be great if you could audition one. I have a friend with Von Schweikert speakers and they have very good bass in his system. I can't remember the amplifier he's using, though.

See if you can audition a Parasound A21. It works very well for me.


 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 21:04:18
Mel
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 Yes, it's a factory upgrade.

As I wrote they are not TOO overstuffed. They do very well with other amps. They are very quick with virtually no overhang.

Reviewing the Sim amp many years ago, Kal Rubinson noted that it was "powerfully extended" with most speakers, but "not quite as suitable a mate for speakers with highly damped low-end responses, whether sealed boxes or transmission lines: The Moon W-5 starved the PMC IB-1S Monitor's bass to the point of anorexia."

That's exactly what I experienced, and why I need a new amp.

The amp is great. The speaker is great. It's just that they don't mate well.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 21:22:33
Mel
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 Thanks John. I will audition the Parasound.

I had great bass before the upgrade. The speaker was specked to 25 Hz.(-2db) and it was believable for this relatively small speaker. The new one is supposed to be much better still. It uses very expensive Scandinavian aluminum cone woofers.

Mel

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 16, 2015 at 22:56:47
Disbeliever
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 Absolutely essential that you audition any amplifier with your speakers before purchase unless the amp can be returned for a refund. I would not touch with a barge pole any antique tube amp, Class D amp. or one with JFET input, but thats just me .

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 00:45:06
morricab
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 Your speakers are now well damped enough that they do not require a high damping factor from the amplifier. I have experienced the same thing with other "critically" damped speakers and horn loaded bass drivers. You need an amp with LESS damping factor, not more. You are compounding the damping (mechanical) with damping (electrical). That is why it sounds dead. What is the sensitivity and impedance of the speaker? A good push/pull triode amp would probably liven them up significantly.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 01:36:53
akolegov
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 Cary SLI-80 or Roque Cronus amps come to mind...

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 03:09:29
fantja
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 Mel-

tubes or solid-state, whichever way you decide to go, home audition any amp prior to purchase.

 

Have the locations of the speakers changed since their upgrade?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 04:55:08
3db
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 That is a variable that needs to be considered before changing out electronics. The single biggest sonic impact of speakers is their interaction with the acoustic environment that they are placed in. Eliminate that first.

 

Van Alstine 600R, posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:16:07
hawkmoon
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 FET Valve amplifier. Can change the tone through the use of various 12at7 Tubes. Bulletproof with great service and sound. Have fun!

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=210

 

RE: Have the locations of the speakers changed since their upgrade?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 05:16:19
Mel
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 No. They're in the same place.

 

+1 n/t, posted on July 17, 2015 at 07:05:17
Awe-d-o-file
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ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

If you want "heft", posted on July 17, 2015 at 08:30:53
airtime
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 then tubes will give you that "fat" bottom end your seek!

Been there. Tubes are always praised for their midrange magic. but in my book it's the upper bass and bass that gets me every time.

charles

 

Something I did, posted on July 17, 2015 at 08:33:30
airtime
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 My monitor Audio RX2's seems to be dull in the bottom end.

I opened it up and removed the entire back 2-3" panels on the rear and a little on the bottom. Holy COW!!!!! what was the company thinking over stuffing that box like that?

 

+1 Agree., posted on July 17, 2015 at 09:46:16
AbeCollins
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 And depending on the tube amp, it doesn't have to sound 'bloated fat' but sometimes just a little bit of meat in the lower freqs really make a big difference in overall enjoyment. I call it 'robust and full-bodied', which to me is the opposite of lean, clean, sterile, and dry.

A high damping factor probably won't help here. I've owned amps with very high damping factor in both Class AB and Class D but that doesn't guarantee they get the bass 'right'. Tight maybe, but not 'right' for my taste. Bryston comes to mind in my experience. My 7BSST2 monoblocks were powerful and tight but otherwise the polar opposite of 'robust and full-bodied' per my description above.

 

You still have your Manley monoblocks? /nt\, posted on July 17, 2015 at 10:23:21
Opus 33 1/3
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Opus 33 1/3

 

Downsized to Rogue Cronus Magnum KT120 Integrated - nt, posted on July 17, 2015 at 11:08:05
AbeCollins
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 .

 

Speaker Break in, posted on July 17, 2015 at 14:11:52
G Squared
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 How long have you have the upgrade? Does the mfg/upgrader have a recommended break in period?
Gsquared

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 16:22:58
hahax@verizon.net
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 According to Stereophile measurements, the W% output impedance at 20 Hz is 0.015 ohms which even into 4 ohms translates as a damping factor of 0ver 250. I doubt damping factor is a a 'factor' at all which would make the bass even leaner anyway. Hopefully the woofers just need breakin.

 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 17, 2015 at 20:08:21
Mel
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 Perhaps the damping factor is not the issue, but then I don't know what is. Can you guess? The speakers are broken in, at least enough to tell. They sound fine in the bass with a number of other amps, just not the Sim W-5. With that amp they have little below about 60-80 Hz. This peculiarity of the amp (inability to drive heavily damped woofers) was written about in the Stereophile review of it 16 years ago. Otherwise it is a great amp.

 

Tubes suck. Try Hypex based product like nad or Merrill audio ...nt, posted on July 17, 2015 at 21:39:00
kuribo
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 Nt

 

{{{They sound fine in the bass with a number of other amps}}}, posted on July 18, 2015 at 01:57:53
three_sox
 ... And you are asking for a recommendation?

What is wrong with the number of amps which sound fine?

What are these amps and why don't you use one of the ones you already know sound fine?

Good luck in your quest.







 

RE: {{{They sound fine in the bass with a number of other amps}}}, posted on July 18, 2015 at 05:53:06
Mel
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 Well, I said fine in the BASS. But perhaps not fine in the highs and mids, or over my budget.

 

Oh ... , posted on July 18, 2015 at 06:00:20
three_sox
 ... Perhaps if you named the amps it will give folks a better understanding of what you are asking and expecting to hear from other amps.

Giving a budget is also a pretty basic requirement.


Good luck finding whatever it is you are looking for.







 

RE: Can You Recommend an Amplifier for Me?, posted on July 18, 2015 at 07:16:24
rkeman
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 Class D Audio SDS-270. Superb control of highly damped large woofers and very good sonics everywhere else. Another alternative would be the Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 for the same reasons.

 

I'm sure you don't even realize it, but you're doing huge disservice to Hypex-based products...., posted on July 18, 2015 at 11:30:58
carcass93
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 .... with posts like this.

You see, people in this forum, when they see unqualified "Tubes suck" assertion, immediately know that they're dealing with someone who has no experience with tubes, at best - and with just an obnoxious moron, at worst.

In any case, you can be sure the rest of your post will be ignored.

 

1+ , posted on July 18, 2015 at 16:12:37
airtime
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 You pinned it.

 

It was sarcasm in response to the asinine posts seen here all too often..., posted on July 18, 2015 at 17:35:39
kuribo
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 about class d (wouldn't touch it with a barge pole), feedback, ss, etc.

I have consistently stated that there is no superior or best amp or amp topology, that an amp is part of a system, and that ultimately it comes down to personal preferences.

If you take umbrage with my statement that tubes suck, which you should, then I would hope to see you express similar sentiments to those who make negative generalizations about class d, feedback, ss, etc. To date, I don't recall reading any such comments from you...how odd, given your apparent displeasure at negative generalizations...perhaps it was the target that upset you, not the fact it was yet another (false) generalization?

 

+1, posted on July 18, 2015 at 18:27:46
Dynobot
 Agree

 

It's a dirty job, but, posted on July 19, 2015 at 05:43:30
E-Stat
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 someone has to be the Switching Apologist. :)

 

Thanks for proving my point re: asinine posts nt, posted on July 19, 2015 at 16:38:22
kuribo
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 Nt

 

you sure like calling people names, posted on July 19, 2015 at 18:18:25
madisonears
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 That behavior is juvenile, boorish at best. I've seen you call enough posters morons or worse simply because they don't worship at the same audio altar as you.

I like your constructive contributions when you make them, but perhaps you should rein in this tendency to use offensive labels for those with whom you disagree. It contributes nothing useful.

And tubes do suck. I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked.

Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

Don't get me wrong, posted on July 19, 2015 at 19:40:23
E-Stat
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 we love all your humorous, defensive posts!

You're the only one who finds the need to step into every post about switching amps. :)

 

Of course I post in class d threads- I'm the apologist. What's your excuse? Nt, posted on July 19, 2015 at 19:43:25
kuribo
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 Nt

 

Sorry, posted on July 19, 2015 at 19:55:49
E-Stat
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 I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked.

you made a poor choice.

 

And posts , posted on July 19, 2015 at 19:58:58
E-Stat
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 that make no mention of class D at all like this one.

I just observed your expected knee jerk response. :)

 

+/-1, posted on July 19, 2015 at 20:00:19
AbeCollins
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 +1 about the offensive labels. It's pretty much expected and tolerated from this inmate even though he's been kicked off Computer Audio, Hi-Res, and the Digital forums numerous times.

-1 about tubes suck.

Like SS, it depends. I've owned many of both technologies, and it depends. ;-)



 

There is a difference between knee jerk responses, which are , posted on July 19, 2015 at 20:24:46
kuribo
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 what followed my post and simple jerks. Clearly I don't have to explain the latter.

 

Seems there is a large subset of insecure audiophiles who are, posted on July 19, 2015 at 20:31:21
kuribo
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 uncomfortable to the point of acting like absolute idiots (or jerks-see below) when presented with opinions that challenge their reality. We seem to see this here ad nauseam...

 

Absolutely!, posted on July 19, 2015 at 20:36:56
E-Stat
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 We eagerly await your next contribution. :)

 

RE: +/-1, posted on July 19, 2015 at 21:06:24
A.Wayne
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 Well I just got my class D hybrid toob /chip amp with Jfet inputs , made in France , Hypexerlet ....:)

 

Repulsively presumptuous on so many levels...nt, posted on July 19, 2015 at 21:44:26
kuribo
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 Nt

 

I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 19, 2015 at 22:09:44
madisonears
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 Your post, besides being snide and condescending, is wrong: I made a very good choice. I got away from noisy, fragile, unreliable, energy-wasting tubes after a couple years of frustration. Oh, I've heard how good tubes can sound, and my VK-60's made some pretty sweet music. But the heat, electricity and other expenses, plus their general unreliability (yes, even BAT!) made me very happy to get a SS amp that does everything they did at a fraction of the purchase and operating cost and with less distortion, and it will always sound exactly the same and not fail for probably 20 years.

Keep yer tubes if you must; I don't hold it against anyone. They're not for everyone, though.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 19, 2015 at 22:31:58
Disbeliever
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 Hear Hear

 

RE: you sure like calling people names, posted on July 20, 2015 at 01:54:11
morricab
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 "And tubes do suck. I've owned very expensive monoblock tube amps. They sucked."

Sucked a lot of power...yeah that I can believe.

 

RE: I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 20, 2015 at 01:59:37
morricab
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 "Oh, I've heard how good tubes can sound, and my VK-60's made some pretty sweet music"

Ah, so they didn't suck!! Just sucked a lot of power...like I said, I can believe that. But if you go with Class A SS amps they are also amps that "sucks".

"with less distortion, and it will always sound exactly the same and not fail for probably 20 years"

What does that mean "with less distortion"?? Did you find the BATs to sound distorted?? You just said above that they made some pretty sweet music. If you mean on an oscilloscope I would ask you how is that relevant to your listening experience?? Does it give you a security blanket to know that you have only .001% THD even if it doesn't sound as good (despite what you tell yourself?) Parts age in SS amps to and they for sure change sound over time...as to failure...I have seen just as many dead SS amps as tube amps and the SS amps are harder to repair.

Your post is a model of self-contradiction and self-deception.

 

RE: I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 20, 2015 at 02:00:18
morricab
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 If only you could...

 

Sorry to hear of your frustration, posted on July 20, 2015 at 05:49:00
E-Stat
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 I got away from noisy, fragile, unreliable, energy-wasting tubes after a couple years of frustration.

There are many other choices available that are neither noisy, fragile nor unreliable. Energy wasting?

They're not for everyone, though.

Agreed.

 

Many folks, posted on July 20, 2015 at 05:52:11
E-Stat
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 don't share his experience nor his system weaknesses.

I've never been "frustrated" by any gear I've owned. Have you?

 

Not surprisingly, the one who fits the description to a tee,...., posted on July 20, 2015 at 06:12:23
carcass93
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 ... - under "+/-1" - agrees with you below. Well, that one deserves what he gets, and much more - only restricted by the rules of the forum. I guess schmo'llins forgot to tell you how many times he was kicked out (unfortunately, only temporarily) from Digital forums, for posting offensive garbage, despite being explicitly told by moderator not to. Oh well...

As for the rest. This is NOT a popularity contest - however, looks like I'm doing pretty good in this particular case. I'm entitled to my opinion about people, just like you are entitled to yours about tubes, someone's behavior etc. I will continue to express my opinion as I see fit, and don't really give a damn whether someone is happy about it,

"Tubes suck" - again, if you're not going to qualify that with "my tube amps sucked", "they weren't a match with my speakers", or "my ability to put a system together sucks" - see my previous post for the reasons why.

 

Got that right, posted on July 20, 2015 at 06:30:49
airtime
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 I've measured some mid 2000-ish amps. Interesting, or they just lied on the original numbers!!!!

So distortion doesn't seem to be a relevant component of the continued tube/SS debate.

 

RE: Got that right, posted on July 20, 2015 at 07:02:27
morricab
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 Oh distortion matters a lot...just not the way that most people and especially meter readers think it matters. What matters is what the ear is sensitive to and not necessarily what the scope is sensitive to. It turns out that the weighting of harmonics is very far from linear with regard to audibility...not a surprise and it has been know for nearly 80 years but it is convenient to ignore when you have another agenda.

 

Emotiva as an "upgrade" over Simaudio, even the older one?, posted on July 20, 2015 at 08:37:12
carcass93
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 Provided you're right about superior bass control of highly damped woofers - I wonder what the OP would lose everywhere else, going with a budget product at 1/5 list price.

 

RE: Emotiva as an "upgrade" over Simaudio, even the older one?, posted on July 20, 2015 at 11:05:42
A.Wayne
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 Have to be careful with what others perceive as tight bass, most who do, would give an acoustic bass a big Fail, if they actually heard one.




Regards

 

Nothing personal, posted on July 20, 2015 at 11:55:20
madisonears
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 You certainly are entitled to your opinion about AUDIO, but why is it always passed through the filter of a personal vendetta or anger? This site is dedicated to audio. Please try to keep it that way.

You are not entitled to express your opinion about the posters here, whether or not you agree with them. I see a lot of really stupid posts, but calling the posters morons does no one any good. Do you think insulting someone's intelligence and calling them names is the best way to persuade them to your point of view? It's juvenile, unnecessary, and not productive in any way save venting your own anger. Find another outlet. Just because your posts squeak by the forum rules, doesn't mean they're appropriate or appreciated.

Simple. Write about audio. Leave insulting people out of it.

And my system now without tubes is quite amazing.

Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

6C33C-based amps sure do - the BAT in question, and also my Audio Mirror monos., posted on July 20, 2015 at 12:22:16
carcass93
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 The heat those tubes put out is scary.

Can I live with that? Yes, absolutely.

 

No contradiction or deception here, posted on July 20, 2015 at 12:40:18
madisonears
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 I agree that tubes sound very nice when they are operating perfectly, which is rare. Of course a SS amp can fail, but usually they don't just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own. Most SS failures are induced by careless owners or simple age (typically, PS) after many years of reliable service. Just from my own experience and reading numerous posts here, I know there are likely to be many more failed tube amps.

I would never consider Class A amps because of all the power they waste, and they're usually operating within a hair's breadth of failure. Not sure they really sound that much better. My amps now are efficient (left on 24/7, hardly ever get more than warm even when cranked), and they play music as clearly, that is, with more inner detail and space (not falsely exaggerated highs) and realistic tonality as my tube amps did. That's what I mean by distortion. I doubt that any tube amp can possibly operate with the same low level of measured distortion and noise, and the sound, on which I place more importance, is not any better. No security blanket required.

I believe many tube amp owners are better at self-deception. My amps will always sound this good. Your claim that SS parts wear out is BS. Other than power supply caps, there are no parts that will change over time in an audible way. Not so with tubes, and you know it, even if you won't admit it. All that fiddling and fussing, and what do you get? Great sound for a while, plenty of heat (wasted energy), then slow degradation, fear of fuses blowing, tubes arcing, bias changing.

Again, enjoy your tube amps. I understand the fascination with brightly glowing things, and the sound can be seductive while it lasts. Please stop claiming that they are superior in every way to every SS amp.

Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

Did your BAT amps really..., posted on July 20, 2015 at 12:47:49
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 ...just sputter and flame and pop and hiss and smoke all on their own?

I've never seen that in over forty years of using tube products. Is that the only brand you tried?

 

RE: No contradiction or deception here, posted on July 20, 2015 at 13:22:48
morricab
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 i know of a lot of classic tube amps that are still in service decades after they were made...can't say that I have seen too many functional 1960s SS amps...

 

RE: 6C33C-based amps sure do - the BAT in question, and also my Audio Mirror monos., posted on July 20, 2015 at 13:24:47
morricab
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 Speaking of 6C33C, I just got a pair of 6C33C based monos from a German company called Wall Audio. 2 per channel and about 35 watts or so of power. Kick the butt of my Odeons so far (only had them 2 days so far).

 

Please post your impressions, when you feel it's time. I'm really happy with mine., posted on July 20, 2015 at 13:48:18
carcass93
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Posts: 7181
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 45 Wpc, parallel SET, 2 6C33C per channel, 1 x 6SL7 as input, 1 x 6SN7 as driver.

It's anything but "mushy, flabby bass", "blurred and slow drum set", "rolled-off highs", or any other nonsense, which is generously sprinkled around here by those devoid of experience.

 

RE: Did your BAT amps really..., posted on July 20, 2015 at 18:55:23
madisonears
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Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
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 One of them blew an internal fuse regularly due to a minor component (diode?) failure in one of the auto-bias circuits. Other than that, they ran pretty well. I could have easily roasted marshmallows over them. Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.

I see posts here pretty regularly about tube amp failures, some quite spectacular, some merely perplexing. There were some notoriously inferior designs (Golden Tube or some such) that rarely ran for very long.

I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement. Enjoy them. I can't bother.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: No contradiction or deception here, posted on July 20, 2015 at 19:15:28
madisonears
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Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
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 And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound. There were and are just as many shitty tube amps as good ones. Early SS amps sounded awful; many new designs still do. A few sounded okay even back then; some now sound excellent. The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not, which means nothing other than that retrogrades will covet them. Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs?

Are you claiming that those vintage tube amplifiers have never needed work, in some cases massive overhauls, or that the original tubes still perform adequately?

Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

Hmmm, posted on July 20, 2015 at 20:37:13
E-Stat
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 Electric bill dropped by 30% after selling them.

Let's do some Jethro math. According to Stereophile, each consumes 500W maximum which is conveniently 1 kW for a pair. Listen to them say four hours every day running full power @ $.12/kWh which works out to about $15/month. You must have a frugal power bill!

I know there are more reliable designs and brands that run for a long time and need only regular tube replacement.

Yep.

Many.

 

I really enjoyed hearing, posted on July 20, 2015 at 20:53:53
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 Joule Electra Right of Passage amps driving Magnepan 20.1s at Sea Cliff. I met Jud Barber in Atlanta years ago and found him to be a fascinating guy.

You could supply a few MiG Foxbats with that many 6C33s. :)

 

$$$$$, posted on July 20, 2015 at 22:02:03
madisonears
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Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 My power costs closer to $0.17/KWH. And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.

Now you're implying I'm a liar? Go suck a tube, Jethro.


berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: No contradiction or deception here, posted on July 21, 2015 at 02:40:37
morricab
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 "And that proves what? Simply because an amplifier is old confers no particular quality to its sound"

You made it clear you had a beef with the reliability and longetivity of the amps not with the sound quality of your BAT VK60.

No doubt there are many poor tube amps. But nearly all SS amps are shitty.

" The technology has advanced; tube designs mostly have not,"¨

This is a complete fallacy and completely ignores the benefits of advancement in materials technology as applied to modern tube amps. Not to mention the development of completely new tubes in the last 15 years (KR Audio, Emission labs etc.). Let's not forget that there is nothing really new in SS amp design probably since the 1970s. Just better application of similar designs.

"Do you also believe that old paper cone tweeters are superior to decent modern designs? "

No, I believe ribbon, electrostatic, plasma ion and horn loaded tweeters with modern diaphrams sound the best. My current speakers have a 1 inch titanium dome loaded into a 10 inch diameter solid wood horn...sounds great. My other speakers have Be dome tweeters. In the past i have had ribbon and electorstatic speakers and I have heard a length both Acapella and Lansche speakers with ion tweeters.

Some are still original but probably recapped (a failing with all amps). So what if tubes wear out? They are designed to be easily replaced. When a transistor fails, good luck because it will probably take half the amp with it in a firey show. People will just throw most of those away because it is too expensive to repair.

 

RE: I really enjoyed hearing, posted on July 21, 2015 at 02:46:11
morricab
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 I can't even imagine how hot those things must get. I had a pair of Silvaweld OTL reference monos that hand only 4 of those things per channel and it cooked my room to the point where I said "enough!" and I sold them off. Made my room swelter.

Now the new ones are only 4 tubes total and they are getting quite warm, especially compared to my Pset 300B amp, but still under control compared to the NAT I just got rid of. Only the Silvaweld OTLs got hotter than the (hybrid with transistor output but man the heat!) NAT.

 

RE: Please post your impressions, when you feel it's time. I'm really happy with mine., posted on July 21, 2015 at 02:48:42
morricab
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 Yeah these new ones are 35 watt Parallel SET with shunt regulated input and driver (ECC82s both tubes). Output transformer uses Ni and Co alloy. Bass is very powerful...much more so than my JJ 322 but the texture of the JJ is just superb...not clear if this new one is up to that standard or not yet. Mids are big and palpable but still open. Highs are not as delicate as the 300B amp but that is not a huge surprise I think.

 

Honestly, posted on July 21, 2015 at 05:50:11
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 I didn't notice. As for space heaters, the gentle giant VTL Wotans take the cake with twenty-four 6550Cs per amp. :)

 

RE: $$$$$, posted on July 21, 2015 at 08:40:32
E-Stat
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 And I now have a very frugal power bill because my stereo wastes so little of it.

Honestly, my bill is dominated in the summer by HVAC, pool pump and recharging the EV with an average annualized monthly power bill almost triple your (previous) $60 figure.

 

RE: I really enjoyed hearing space heaters, posted on July 21, 2015 at 08:45:30
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 KSA 200 was the biggest space heater I ever had, pulled 12 amps idling, That NAT must have been perfect during the winter months Morri and you still get to play with the toobs.

Anyway,


Agree or disagree subjectively about Audio systems is one thing, peddling toobs as being as or more reliable than SS gear will require some of your special Bong juice for acceptance Morri.


Regards.

 

If user feedback, and my own experience, is anything to go by - 6C33C designs are less about...., posted on July 21, 2015 at 08:55:07
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 .... "sweet and delicate", and more about "big, bold and powerful".

Suits the music I listen to perfectly, but I can see why someone else would prefer other designs, supplying more of the traditional "tube magic" sound.

As far as heat - 4 of those heat monsters is as many as I would tolerate in my smallish 16' x 11' listening room, with low ceiling too (basement). Looks like yours are run more conservatively, being rated at 35 Wpc.

 

RE: I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 21, 2015 at 09:27:13
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 I agree that tubes sound very nice when they are operating perfectly, which is rare.

Not to question YOUR experience but I doubt that this is the case for most tube amp owners. It is rare for a tube amp to not be working properly.

I've owned many tube amps over the years including the ones listed below along with the tube types I used. All but one* worked perfectly while I owned them.

Conrad-Johnson Premier 11a (6550 or KT88)
AES/Cary SixPac monoblocks (EL34)
Cary CAD-808/Rocket 88 (KT88)
Cary 45 SET monoblocks (45)
Cary Xciter Integrated (6L6)
Audio Research VT100mkII (6550)
Audio Research VT50 (6550 or KT88)
Audio Research VSi-60 Integrated (KT120)
*Manley Neo-Classic 250 (EL34 or 6CA7)
Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum (KT90 or KT120)
Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated (KT90 or KT120)
and probably a few I forgot to list.

* Got a bad batch of EL34 tubes that caused a couple cathode resistors to pop in each Manley monoblock. It can be argued that even this amp worked perfectly. The cathode resistors did their job protecting the amp. I replaced the resistors and retubed using the more hefty 6CA7 and all was fine.

If power consumption and heat are a major issue for you, you might consider a Class D amp. There are several out there from $100 to $15,000 or more.




 

lifestyles, posted on July 21, 2015 at 13:15:46
madisonears
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Posts: 1587
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 So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly. I'm not saying you're extravagant, but you're not exactly conservative, either. I have no AC, can't even imagine having a pool, and no EV, although that might be cool. I do ride my bicycle and walk more than I drive my pick-up.

I'm 64, just trying to make a smaller footprint to balance people like you. No offense. Live the way you want to live, and enjoy your tube amp. I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm not at all sorry, posted on July 21, 2015 at 13:27:24
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Thanks, Abe. I never tire of reading your extensive adventures with so many different amps. I've owned a dozen or so myself, but only one pair of tube power amps and one tube preamp. Neither worked well for me. If there are so many others that are perfectly reliable, then perhaps I was merely unlucky. Somehow I doubt that, despite your personal testimony.

I owned a pair of Channel Islands Class D amps, sort of a lower-priced upper-end Class D. They sounded okay, but their transformers hummed terribly and drove me nuts. I would describe their sound as accurate but unrealistic. You have tried enough amps to know what that means.

I cannot abide noise from a stereo, which was one big reason why I disliked the CI Class D, and it's also a factor why I dislike tubes. They often make noise. There is no valid reason for a stereo to hiss or hum, ever. Mine now is so quiet I really do not know it's on until music plays.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: lifestyles, posted on July 21, 2015 at 15:14:16
E-Stat
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 So your tube amps fit your lifestyle perfectly.

Ironically, my garage system consumes more power than the main system even though it is SS because I leave it on 24/7 (for optimum performance) and it is a Nelson Pass design - which means it is richly biased, aka runs hot.

The tube amps are used more infrequently.

The EV is great for getting me around the neighborhood and through the course. :)

 

RE: If user feedback, and my own experience, is anything to go by - 6C33C designs are less about...., posted on July 22, 2015 at 01:26:34
morricab
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 Well, I took some time to listen to one of my better recorded Jazz records (Korean singer, album called Lento on ACT label) and the transparency through the upper mids of the new amps is stunning. Very pure sounding with just a light dusting of sweetness. Not quite a projected as the JJ 322 but still very palpable and alive there. The upper highs are slightly subdued but interestingly it is not a dark sound like one would usually get with dynamically constricted highs. This suggests that there is not the constriction just a generally lower level of output. So far I am liking quite a bit what I hear and it is clearly perfect for long listening sessions...it makes you want to dig out more music rather than turn them off. The JJ is more "lit up" but I think that is what really well designed 300B amps do best. Bass texture is perhaps still slightly better with the JJ but the power in the bass is clearly in the court of the new amp (it is a german brand Wall Audio and the model is the Opus M50). Not that the JJ felt lightweight but it doesn't have the Gravitas. It could be also due to transformer types. The JJ is using very thin laminate double "C" cores with grain oriented steel, which the M50s use EI types with very thin laminates of Ni and Co alloy. Some of the fullness from the new amps could be some onset of core saturation giving a bit of harmonic "fullness". The JJs OPTs are so oversized and of the core type that saturation is unlikely and you really hear nice bass texture.

I think despite the projection of the 300B the tonal color of the Opus M50 is more right through the mids and it is utterly grainless for both amps. Short of spending Kondo money I don't think I can do a whole lot better (preamp evalautions are still ongoing).

 

RE: If user feedback, and my own experience, is anything to go by - 6C33C designs are less about...., posted on July 22, 2015 at 06:23:06
A.Wayne
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Posts: 2527
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 Morri,


there is not much on the internet about the Opus M50 , are they selling direct ..? Lots of dollars for so few watts .. 12K a pr ..


 

RE: If user feedback, and my own experience, is anything to go by - 6C33C designs are less about...., posted on July 22, 2015 at 06:25:02
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
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12K a Pr ...

 

I'm changing my opnion, posted on July 22, 2015 at 10:55:13
madisonears
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Joined: September 6, 2006
 You have a GARAGE system with a Pass power hog, and you leave it on 24/7? You are wasteful, and probably with no sense of guilt about it. You almost seem proud of it.

I hate that kind of behavior. Hate, without qualification.


berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm changing my opnion, posted on July 22, 2015 at 11:58:54
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
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 Madisonears, So Static is less like Trump more like Obama ..?

" I begrudge no one their enjoyment of life. Well, maybe people like Trump."
- Madisonears

 

you've got dry bass, and someone said to get a higher DF amp?!?!?, posted on July 22, 2015 at 15:21:59
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 You have over-damped bass and yet need to damp it even MORE?!?

You ought to try an amp with a lower DF than the Sim.

Borrow a PP valve amp of about the same power, but with a modern - IE SS Soft recovery diodes and large storage (even a choke or two) - PSU.

You may end up with heavier bass than you like, but you won't end up with less bass, which is what a higher DF amp will do.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

Alrighty then, posted on July 22, 2015 at 17:35:46
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I enjoy listening to music on a daily basis. In the warm months, I like to putter with the cars, motorcycle or do some reloading in the garage. Chill out.

Do you also *hate* folks who have swimming pools? The pool pump draws 11A continuously. Is that "wasteful"? By comparison, the Stasis 3 draws about 1A quiescent.

Pics in my gallery. :)

 

some boring philosophy concerning audio, posted on July 22, 2015 at 18:52:48
madisonears
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Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
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 I was careful to write that I hated the behavior of crass consumerism, not the "folks." People can change their behavior if they're motivated. I have been motivated most of my adult life to be a conscientious consumer. I don't think I'm a crazy eco-nut, but I do espouse the strategy of using less to leave more. I realize many Americans, especially wealthy ones, do not share a shred of that belief, and it sickens me.

We all enjoy listening to music, often in various domestic settings. I have a total of three systems, all driven by a single source which is fed throughout the house so I can listen in the kitchen, workshop, living room. I do not use much electricity in any of the systems, and the music is beautiful. You could do the same, if you decided it was a priority to consume less power.

I know Pass amps are special. I owned a Threshold 400A in the 70's (and through the 80's) and loved it. That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was. I was a fan. But now I see his designs as wasteful and I know there are alternatives. As I was on the leading edge of audio innovation back then (also owned one of the first 50 pairs of B&W DM6 speakers imported to the US), so I would like to be now. If I could get one power hog amplifier turned off and convert its user to a high efficiency system, I would be very happy.

I don't care to comment on your swimming pool pump. I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that. If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm changing my opnion, posted on July 22, 2015 at 18:56:10
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I have no idea what you mean. I won't be dragged into a silly political argument, and this is certainly not the place for it. I am sorry I used Trump as a reference, but he is universally recognized and really does set a standard for being ostentatious.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm changing my opnion, well kinda , maybe ....., posted on July 22, 2015 at 19:34:13
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Agree ,

yes he can be just that and he is not alone in our society today and please, you brought it up, and since One pays his own way and the other has a life history of feeding off the proles , not sure why you would want to target one for waste and not the other ..

..

Regards

 

RE: some boring philosophy concerning audio, posted on July 22, 2015 at 20:19:07
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 That was before many people, even audiophiles, knew who Nelson Pass was.

I worked for a hi-fi shop in the 70s and was introduced to the 800A in 1976. My boss used one to drive his Dayton-Wright electrostats. I purchased my Stasis 3 new in '81.

I have the feeling that you and I have very little in common other than a passion for good sound, so let's leave it at that.

Yes, I enjoy the luxury of air conditioning. Today it was 97 with a heat index of 108 and will be in the mid to high 90s for the remainder of the week where I live. I don't feel the least bit *crass* using AC for comfort and health.

If a person wants to, they can get great sound while wasting less power.

Sorry, Texas Instruments LM3886 chip based amps simply can't drive the electrostats in either of my music systems.

 

correct on all counts, posted on July 22, 2015 at 22:33:37
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I can handle heat and humidity for only so long, then hide in the basement and read read read. Constant 90's is a bit of a trial without AC, I admit. I realize there are necessities. I resent excess.

Interesting we both had early exposure to Pass gear. I also had GAS junk and Luxman when it was good. I had a local shop that really knew their stuff, taught me a lot. Now a lost resource for newbies. Guess they rely on the net now.

For you new guys out there: there is a way to have a beautiful stereo that operates efficiently. But electrostatic speakers probably is not the way to do it! You'll need some big ass amps, and that means lots of juice.

These little chip amps (they're actually far more sophisticated with a nested LM318 besides the LM3886) can drive my buddy's Eggleston Andra's to realistic levels, but they're maxed out for sure. Very sweet, tube-like.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: I'm changing my opnion, well kinda , maybe ....., posted on July 22, 2015 at 22:52:11
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Yeah, poor Saint Donald has risen from humble beginnings and selflessly dedicated his life to making the world a better place for others, but Obama has selfishly given nothing of his time or energy while amassing a huge fortune drawing from the public trough, risking nothing and leaving our country a mess so much worse than it was before his time in office.

Have a good night thinking about that.

berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: If user feedback, and my own experience, is anything to go by - 6C33C designs are less about...., posted on July 23, 2015 at 01:18:18
morricab
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Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Well, you and I both know that its the quality of the watts that counts. If I wanted just lots of watts I would just get a big cheap profi amp and be done with it.

Not direct, there are a few dealers, almost all in Germany. It is a small German company even though it has been in business for a long time it stayed small. Nice products though...

This guy who did the report, Kim Key, picked it as a most wanted item for their site for 2014 even before he has finished the proper review. This is a guy who has heard the best of tubes (Kondo, Thrax etc. etc.). They are priced a bit more sensibly in Germany and I got mine as show demo models.

 

RE: correct on all counts, posted on July 23, 2015 at 01:35:05
morricab
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Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "Very sweet, tube-like"

Doubtful at best.

and yes I have heard a number of chip amps. I have also owned a couple of Class D amps and heard more than a dozen others of all manufacture types. None have anything remotely like a "tube like" sound.

 

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