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Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?

160.62.7.250
Posted on June 5, 2015 at 06:34:59
morricab
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 These look pretty awesome and although expensive as a kit, might still represent good value due to the extreme apparent quality of the output transformers.

I have a parallel 300B SET amp now (JJ 322) and I like what it does as it too has very good output iron (also large and heavy double C cores) but the idea of an interstage transformer coupled amp with less active stages is interesting to me. Build complexity looks moderate (at least compared to the Transcendent Sound Beast OTLs I built a few years ago) and parts quality high.

 

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RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 5, 2015 at 09:22:45
Awe-d-o-file
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 No but I want one and the DAC with them too.

E
T

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 5, 2015 at 13:54:49
morricab
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 Yeah the photos of those big C core trannies looks pretty cool. I would take the covers off of the ones in my JJ but they potted those suckers! I estimate the double Cs in my JJs weight at least 10kg each...pretty beefy for 300B amp.

 

Level 5 DAC from AN Kits coming shortly. nt, posted on June 5, 2015 at 16:24:32
jusbe
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Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 6, 2015 at 20:58:14
Awe-d-o-file
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 Nice ! 10 lbs each? I'll have to research. A tube amp is only as good as its iron............Oh and some of the YBA SS amps have double C's

E
T

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Will be on the lookout........ n/t, posted on June 6, 2015 at 20:58:43
Awe-d-o-file
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ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 7, 2015 at 09:27:48
morricab
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 No, about 10Kg each (22lbs). The whole amp is 42Kg (93 lbs) and the chassis is made mostly from wood (so not so heavy).

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 12, 2015 at 05:07:28
A.Wayne
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 http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2613-How-much-amplifier-power-do-I-REALLY-need&p=34629#post34629

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 15, 2015 at 01:44:03
morricab
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 What a woefully insensitive speaker that is clearly having dynamic compression issues to get any real volume out of it.

"My estimate of the big Harbeth's voltage sensitivity on its tweeter axis was 84.5dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is within experimental error of the specified 85dB/2.83V/m."

So, if there was no dynamic compression we would get the following (for a pair at approximately 3 meters):

1 watt 85db
2 watts 88db
4 watts 91db
8 watts 94db
16 watts 97db
32 watts 100db
64 watts 103db
128 watts 106db
256 watts 109db
512 watts 112db

Now, I can tell you those guys were not listening anywhere close to that level indicated (probably high 90s db range) so there is severe dynamic compression occurring with this speaker.

I wish now that I had taken a video of the demo I did with the Line Magnetic LM219ia and a couple of different speakers.

With some 90db speakers we were PEAKING at less than 10 watts. Mostly crusing at a watt or less.

Then we went to the WE horn replica system and we were peaking at around 1 watt!!

The problem with the Harbeths is that probably above about 95db or so they compress so much that you keep pouring in power and basically heating up the voice coils rather than getting louder sound. I applaud their power handling capabilities but...

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 15, 2015 at 03:56:51
A.Wayne
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 Sorry Cab , it's 79dB @1watt /3m/pr , you can calculate form there ...

also if throttling at .5 watt you will exceed 20 easily , possibly 100 on really dynamic passages , As you boys become more aware of the dynamic compression you are listening to , even On high sensitiviy horns , you will start to see more and more using bigger and bigger amplifiers ..


Knock out some of that poor show sound you complain about.....

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 15, 2015 at 11:46:17
morricab
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 Where are you getting such a low number from?

Stereophile measures the speaker at 84.5db, we shall round to 85...that is for ONE speaker. Now a pair will add 3db and give us 87.5db for 1 watt at 1 meter for 1 pair. How do you get an 8 db drop by going back 2 more meters? Even in free space it won't be that much but in a room the real drop will be closer to 3db or so, thus 85db for a pair at 3 meters. Even IF you were right, and you are not, what you are saying is even worse and the speaker will begin to dynamically compress even earlier. Power won't help you as it is just wasted in the voice coils.

Either way, a woefully inefficient speaker that is clearly dynamically compressing or it would never need 500-700 watts for compressed electronic music to get to a high volume level.

"Knock out some of that poor show sound you complain about....."

Unlikely as it was often the highest powered rooms that sounded the worst!! LOL!


 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 15, 2015 at 14:50:20
A.Wayne
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 6 dB for every doubling , that's - 9db for 3 m add 3db for second channel that's 6db , academic really. Room gain is pure speculative , it's the elephant In the room , it only adds conjecture in you assumptions, best to leave it out in discussion , as it could be 1 dB in one 2dB In another , but very rarely at 1K where sensitivity is compared .

That would mean 79db/w/3m In your example hence the tremendous power necessary , regardless even your high sensitivity horns would require 100 watt to not clip and did you notice how little power the classical piece required , my point precisely ...


Put on a good musical , listen above 65dB for some realism and watch clip city from your 25 watt special.

Regards

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 16, 2015 at 15:07:27
morricab
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 A drop of 9db at 3 meters?? Are you mad?? Never ever will it drop by that much and particularly not in the room that was in the video. In my room my Acoustats dropped only by about 1db at 3 meters from speaker. When I had Dynaudios it was about 3 db from a single speaker (yes I made measurements on individual speakers because the room was asymmetrical). However, even IF it were 79db for arguments sake:

79db 1 watt
82 db 2 watts
85db 4 watts
88db 8 watts
91 db 16 watts
94db 32 watts
97db 64 watts
100 db 128 watts
103db 256 watts
106db 512 watts

So, do you think the guys in the video were listening that loud?? I don't think they were. More likely though it is 3-6db headroom because of room gain...your anechoic chamber or outdoor theoretical drop just doesn't hold up in a normal room size...sorry I have measured too speakers in too many rooms to buy it. So again, they SHOULD, without dynamic compression, be able to get very uncomfortably loud (especially with electronica and the guys in the video don't look terribly concerned about their hearing) with 500 watts (like 109-112db loud). Those speakers are probably burning watts without getting much louder already by the mid 90s db range.


With my 98db speakers and given they are in a fairly small room I would expect not more than a couple db drop (so for arguments sake I will grant 96db at 3 meters for a pair)

96 db 1 watt
99db 2 watts
102db 4 watts
105db 8 watts
108db 16 watts
111db 32 watts

Now, do you really think I need more than this?? Now I will grant that dynamic compression will probably set in well before then and 25 watts might "only" get me 103-105db but seriously that is more than loud enough in a domestic home. I don't know of many recordings with > 40db dynamic range...I have a few but only a few and that includes several hundred classical recordings. Most recordings (even classical) employ some compression and limiting

My JJ amp has magic eye level indicators and with most listening they barely flicker and only when I really push it do they even approach meeting in the middle so it is still just a handful of watts.

At some point I will probably try this Line Magnetic amp at home and see what power delivery it says but I bet it will be max under 10-20 watts.

I have a friend with Thiel CS3.7 (from the amp shootout) and he used to have McIntosh MC501s...certainly plenty of power even for you, no? Well they also have big blue power meters that Mc claims are 80% accurate of the true peak power. Well, most of the time we were pushing less than 5 watts and when we cranked it never more than 50 watts. My speakers are at least 8db more sensitive than the Thiels (the Thiels are a 4 ohm speaker so double the current draw). The same loudness will need about 10x less power!

What this tells me about this ridiculous speaker from Harbeth is that it is a PIG and it dynamically compresses like hell.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 02:03:59
morricab
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 Watch the video again. You will see that when they are pumping 500+ watts into those speakers they are not standing 3 or 4 meters away for the most part. They are walking right up to the speakers and amps, taking pictures and videos of cone movements (relatively little for pumping bass and 500 watts I would say) and having discussions. Do you think they could do that easily with techno at 100+db in a moderate sized room??? I think not.

Those speakers might be able to handle the input of a huge signal but I would wager that they compress the peaks pretty badly even of music that is mostly soft with wide dynamics. For sure my horns capture peaks more accurately with a modest amount of power than these with massive power because my speakers won't significantly compress until well over 100db. Its the physics of the speakers. Once a speaker starts dynamic compression it mostly stops getting louder and just starts converting signal to heat.

When I had Dynaudio speakers (Contour 1.8 MkII, a 4 ohm speaker and about 86db/watt), they sounded nice and smooth and even with good bass and decent highs (soft domes are not my favorite anymore... a bit unresolving) but no real dynamics, even when I was feeding them with a Sim Audio Celeste W4250 (250/8ohm, 500/4ohm)... a quite powerful Class AB SS amp. Compressed recordings sounded great and fun but uncompressed classical and jazz sounded boring and lacking dynamic contrast. Ironically, they sounded more lively, up to a point, with a 50 watt tube integrated from Jolida; however, it suffered from somewhat weak bass because it could not deliver enough current for those power sink holes.

Since then, I have steered well clear of such types of speakers and that would obviously include the Harbeth, where IMO you will never get lifelike dynamics from this speaker.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 07:54:32
A.Wayne
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 Morricab ,

You should get out and measure, you are a scientist and use conjecture for reasoning and deduction, all point source drivers drop off at 6 db for every doubling of distance, it's academia, not conjecture...

The video is another which supports the dynamic realism of music, you cant cleanly reproduce drums, piano's et al with 25 watts , it's not possible, well , only with good imagination, provide me with something of intellectual content to support what is being said here instead of conjecture and we can move on to greener pastures.


Regards...

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 08:02:36
A.Wayne
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 Impossible for a 1db drop when doubling distance, you must have the best cognac in the world ...


 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 08:04:54
A.Wayne
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 You may have missed this in Grad school ....... :)

"Pure line array theory is based on pure geometry and the thought experiment of the "free field" where sound is free to propagate free of environmental factors such as room reflections or temperature refraction.

In the free field, sound which has its origin at a point (a point source) will be propagated equally in all directions as a sphere. Since the surface area of a sphere = 4π r² where r is the radius, every doubling of the radius results in a four-fold increase in the sphere's surface area. The result of this is that the sound intensity quarters for every doubling of distance from the point source. Sound intensity is the acoustic power per unit area, and it decreases as the surface area increases since the acoustic power is spread over a greater area. The ratio between two acoustic pressures in deciBels is expressed by the equation dB = 20log(p1/p2), so for every doubling of distance from the point source p1 = 1 and p2 = 2, thus there is a sound pressure loss of approximately 6 dB."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_array


A true Linsource drops 3db for every doubling ( a full horn for example , not quasi/ hybrid horns and panel linesource speakers in domestic environments)

That Dynaudio suffered from a weakamp, anything under 93db/w/m will need really serious amplification to sound "right" because of clipping. Another factor about really high sensitivity speakers, are an unbalanced sound because they tend to grow unevenly in their dynamic expression, some express this as shout, some just sound thin during dynamic passages, this can be mitigated with a really big multi driver system, that will give you increrased sensitvity , less distortion for really good dynamic expression, then of course and because of the great sense of humor science brings, other issues ... :)

One will lose a significant amount of sensitivity when going for a proper balance.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 12:27:28
Palustris
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 "A drop of 9db at 3 meters?? Are you mad?? Never ever will it drop by that much"

Well said: it was a ridiculous assertion. I don't understand the absurd mental gymnastics and the lengths of misinformation and opinion disguised as "fact" that some go to in their efforts to convince others that low efficiency speakers DON'T compress dynamics.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 12:48:00
morricab
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 Are you smoking crack or just not reading. I have MEASURED the drop in real rooms and I am telling you what I have learned from those measurements. I know all the theoretical calculations so thanks for the school lecture.

I just told you that I was putting 500 w/channel into my Dynaudios and that is a "weak" amp?? Ok, whatever...

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 12:57:41
morricab
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 Sometimes I think you are deliberately obtuse. I told you, VERY clearly that i have measured this stuff...3 different types of planars, several conventional speakers etc. I have done lots of this stuff, including measurements for reviews.

THe 6 db drop is just that, THEORETICAL and implies NO room gain or reflections. The 3db line source drop...same thing. The truth is in normal rooms the gain and reflections are significant and reduce the drop by at least a couple db.

I am a scientist and I do and have done the actual experiments my friend. My trusty computer measurement suite and my quick and dirty (but pretty accurate) Behringer DEQ 24/96 have seen a lot of work. In fact last weekend I was busy helping a friend tune up his Living Voice Air Scouts (they have mid and tweeter level controls). We did some in room measurements an adjustment to get them as flat as possible.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 13:02:52
morricab
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 I am convinced that you have never measured any of this stuff. Go do it and tell me you get a 9db drop at 3 meters...no chance.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 14:09:33
morricab
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 What many of them don't realize is that many of these high power, high feedback amps make the feeling of compression even worse. This is what I noted when switching to a much lower power tube amp. Sure the bass power was reduced but the rest opened up significantly.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 15:50:44
A.Wayne
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 I see you found a partner Morri , hilarious , more conjecture in stereo ...

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 15:59:07
A.Wayne
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 You should try and pay attn , firstly I stated you have to leave out the elephant in the room , room gain , this is too big a variable from one to the next . By definition all point source speakers lose 6db for every doubling of distance , what's absurd is you and dexters assertion ....

Now , If we use your tsk , tsk entry , that would imply a room gain of 2 dB , for argument sakes and leveled across the board this would mean a point source in your room would lose 4db for every doubling or 6 dB at 3 m distance ...


Seen ...?

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 15:59:08
morricab
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 Nope, just the purist form of science; observation, repeated testing, measurements and from that hypothesis. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 16:02:23
A.Wayne
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 I see , 1db drop at 3m is your purist form of science; observation, and repeated testing, measurements and from that hypothesis. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pass the cognac Morri ...

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 17, 2015 at 16:58:02
A.Wayne
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 Morri .... ? ...:)

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 18, 2015 at 02:52:52
morricab
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 Yes, with Acoustat 1+1 and Acoustat Spectra 2200s at 3 meters in a 20 square meter room. Distance from the wall a bit over 1 meter. Distance from side walls about 20 cm on one side and about 1 meter on the other (there was a bit of an L shape to one end of the room).

Measured with the SPL meter built into the Behringer DEQ 2496 at about 80db. Measured just in front of one speaker (did it in mono) and then at the listening position that was just over 3 meters away. Pink noise generated internally in the Behringer and this was done with the Behringer calibrated measurement microphone.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 18, 2015 at 03:24:00
RGA
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 I would note that Audio Note does not make the ANKits transformers - they are completely separate companies now which doesn't mean the kits are not good because they are and I am sure they're heavily based on the AN designs if not outright designed by Andy Grove. But you should check.

 

RE:Really Cab . i said point source , posted on June 18, 2015 at 11:07:17
A.Wayne
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 Bad testing setup and i said point source. Your test results implies a room gain of approx 3 db, If for argument sakes we accept this value, your point source would be 6 db lower at the same distance.



You may want to check the calibration on your setup Very good Cognac thou

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 19, 2015 at 01:11:40
morricab
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 I am not debating the math of the theortical drop...I know it very well. But you can't ignore the elephant...it is too big.

Juggle all the numbers you want, I did the measurements and with my POINT sources speakers the drop was less than 3db in my room at 3 meters. You are also ignoring that two speakers in stereo adds 3db.

So, Harbeths are 85db a speaker = 88db at 1 watt/1 meter for a stereo pair.

Now drop that by around 3db for ACTUAL in-room drop (not your freespace 9db, which would only apply outside or in a castle) that would fit pretty well I think for the room in the video (nevermind the fact that the guys in the video were OFTEN far closer than 3 meters) the my numbers are not far off.

See above where I recalculated on your VERY conservative 79db/watt (was that per speaker or for the pair? If it was for the pair then a 9db drop is not happenign I can promise you).

For arguments sake I will concede a 6db drop (still unrealistically high given the measurements I have made) giving us 82db/watt at 3 meters for a stereo pair... is that something you can accept?

Then:
82db 1 watt
85db 2 watts
88db 4 watts
91db 8 watts
94db 16 watts
97db 32 watts
100db 64 watts
103db 128 watts
106db 256 watts
109db 512 watts
112db 1024 watts

Now, I don't know about you but 109db is REALLY loud to me. If I am right up to the speakers (as the guys in the video were often to film the power or watch the woofers move) then it will be about 6db louder (using your calculation for the drop) or 115db!! This is approaching rock concert loud and I can tell you that based on the way the guys in the video are behaving and talking to each other it is NOT 109db loud there. Maybe upper 90s db loud. Maybe.

What does this tell us? That the Harbeths are pigs that compress like hell and need hundreds of watts to get fairly loud on compressed material. Their peak loudness seems to be better when not continuously stressed as evidenced by the classical music piece drawing much less power but how fast really are those meters? Maybe they completely missed the real peak because in real acoustic music the peaks are pretty sudden and short. 28 watts could have easily been 280 watts if the meter is slow. With the continous techno they were probably much more accurate. THe real peak of the classical was probably a lot higher than read by the meter and probably also missed by the speaker as it compressed. This is why horns capture dynamics in a way almost all dynamic speakers and especially insensitive conventional speakers cannot.

A driver with very low moving mass and large area, like a ribbon or electrostatic panel, will also be very responsive due to low mechnical resistance and high force/area but will also compress earlier. Thie makes them great for microdynamics and sounding lively even with low electrical sensitivity but still limited in macrodynamics unless they are very large.

The compression is there all the time above a certain level that seems to start very early for the Harbeth and only gets worse with increasing power input. By contrast, a speaker that can make 100db from a single watt by definition is relatively compromised by dynamic compression. For sure it will also trucate the peaks but at a much higher level (probably above a realistic volume).

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 19, 2015 at 08:43:37
charles1dad
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 Morricab,
As someone who has heard both types of systems, low power amp/ high efficiency speaker and high power/low efficiency speaker many times, I definitely agree with your impressions. I have found the former approach more satisfying and realistic/natural in music reproduction. For me it pretty convincing with actual listening sessions. To each their own.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 19, 2015 at 14:35:28
A.Wayne
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 Morri,

The dynamic compression issue i will soon deal with, as well as your other assumptions...

Did you get to hear this horn system ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL6O8wa4OeI

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 19, 2015 at 15:01:30
Tre'
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 If you're within the reverberant field the level doesn't drop at all.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 20, 2015 at 12:49:47
morricab
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 Yes, last in 2014 I heard them and talked a bit with Ralph Karsten from Atmasphere. To be honest it was not as good as I was hoping for and a bit underwhelming. There were other, better horn/tube setups in Munich last year (and this year). The Greek made Tune Audio Anima comes to mind as does the wild stuff from Ares Cerat (a small company from Cyprus but WOW good stuff).

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 20, 2015 at 13:00:12
morricab
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 You know the funny thing, at least with low sensitivity planar speakers I found that really good low powered amps STILL kicked the crap out of big high powered SS amps. Sure you couldn't play as loud in an absolute sense but at the normal reasonable levels it was no contest.

For years I drove my Apogees with a Sphinx Project 14 mkIII amp and a Silvaweld SWC1000 preamp. Now the Sphinx is relatively high power (180 watt hybrid) but it runs about 25 watts Class A and had no global feedback. A very nice amp overall and the Silvaweld was simply world class preamp that went toe-to-toe with the best and held its own. As I was a reviewer I had a fair bit of gear going through my system and I also flirted with OTLs (big Silvaweld OTL monos). However, it was when I reviewed the KR Audio Kronzilla DM monoblocks that I discovered a whole other level of amplifier. It drove the hell out of my Acoustats and made the Sphinx sound pretty lame. I couldn't afford Kronzillas so I did the next best thing and got a couple of VA350is (disclosue: I became a dealer for KR Audio at that time and quite reviewing). I used those right up until my daughter was born.

The KR, and some other SET and Class A tube amps I have heard with planars simply get more out of them up to their limits. It is not just high sensitivity speakers that benefit.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 22, 2015 at 07:33:04
morricab
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 Yes that is clear from looking at them. I would not say they are based on the AN designs because they really look totally different but you are right that they might very well be excellent.

 

RE: Anyone try the Audio Note Kits all double C core parallel SET monos?, posted on June 22, 2015 at 10:04:35
A.Wayne
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 This one Morri

 

RE: This one is more your speed ..... , posted on June 22, 2015 at 10:10:13
A.Wayne
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 High THD works best ......

 

RE: a Deal cab , posted on June 22, 2015 at 11:02:34
A.Wayne
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 right up your alley ........

 

RE: This one is more your speed ..... , posted on June 25, 2015 at 13:30:05
morricab
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Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Cool old video but I realize now that I have been using the wrong technology...this whole time I should have been using...Hog Callers!! Yeeee Haaawwwww!!!

 

RE: This one is more your speed ..... , posted on June 28, 2015 at 14:19:58
saki70
Audiophile

Posts: 274
Joined: February 2, 2006
 Dang !!!
This had all the makings of a good thread .

 

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