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Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?

71.49.58.28
Posted on May 23, 2015 at 12:52:06
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Was considering replacing the power supply caps (Jamicon 10,000 uF 63v X 4) in my MF A3.5 (150/240W/ch at 8/4 ohms) with some of the Nichicon high-grade units of the same value. Could any folks out there kindly offer any opinions on whether there would likely be any meaningful sound quality improvement? Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

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RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 00:36:14
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Why? Specifically, what do you hope to get out of this upgrade? In other words, what does "meaningful sound improvement" to you? And if someone else is going to do this, what's the cost (without shipping)?

Do you know if the power supply is regulated?

 

RE: Why?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 05:38:22
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 To be honest, I wasn't sure WHAT might be gained, thus the inquiry; my assumption is that the stock capacitors are of lesser quality than the proposed replacements. The work would be done by me, the Nichicon KS are about nine dollars apiece (X4) from DigiKey. They WILL fit physically. Not sure if the PS is regulated. Thanks again for any guidance.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 08:03:57
gmike
Audiophile

Posts: 156
Joined: August 10, 2000
 Not an MF, but I upgraded an integrated amp with Audyn True Copper Caps and I must say, that the cost/performance benefit was off the charts good. For less than $100.00 in parts, it transformed the amp far more than any interconnect, speaker cable, power cord, or fuse that I tried.

I should note that I also replaced the wiring from the output board to the speaker terminals with 12GA OFC wire about a week later and that also had a profound effect, by adding more to dynamics and clarity.

As always, that was my impression with my amp, in my room. YMMV.

 

IIRC, MF amps and preamps of that vintage used choke regulated PSs. /nt\, posted on May 24, 2015 at 08:08:57
Opus 33 1/3
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Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:16:21
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 He's asking about power supply capacitors, you are commenting on coupling caps and wire.

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:17:15
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 Will it sound different? Probably.

I would bet that the circuit is differential with a lot of feedback, so it would tend to work against high audibility of parts changes.

 

RE: Choke regulation, posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:17:21
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Didn't see anything in there that looked like an inductor, so maybe for some reason they did away with the choke regulation by the time of this model generation...unless I missed something. Always very possible.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

CB-very helpful info, thanks, nt., posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:44:51
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Evidently, MF dropped the choke after the 3.2cr. /nt\, posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:45:24
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
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Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: Evidently, MF dropped the choke after the 3.2cr. /nt\, posted on May 24, 2015 at 12:58:01
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 With regulation, you may not need so much filtering, but if you're an experimenter, it can't hurt. I don't know the mfr you are using, now, by the way.

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 20:49:07
gmike
Audiophile

Posts: 156
Joined: August 10, 2000
 Yes, I should have mentioned that messing with the power supply caps, and also the secondary power supply, made no difference. The noticeable improvement came with changing the output caps. Thank you Cauc, for bringing that to light.

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 24, 2015 at 23:45:41
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
 Changing power supply filter caps of unknown pedigree with "audio grade" caps like Nichicon Muse series electrolytics, **MIGHT** change the sound, but I think it unlikely. There are likely to be electrolytic caps on the power rails to ground right on the amp boards too, and changing these **MIGHT** make a difference in sound, too- but it would likely be quite subtle, if there was any difference at all. Looking to see if there are any electrolytics in series with the audio signal anywhere and replacing these with film caps is something that is somewhat more likely to change sound quality.

Be careful changing caps- NEVER use a cap rated below the voltage or temperature rating of the caps you are replacing. And, I would not decrease or increase the capacitance very much, if at all. Putting too large a cap in the power supply filter can over-strain the rectifiers, transformer or regulator (if any.)

It also seems to me that changes likely result in subtle differences- such as changing filter caps in a power supply - are best carried out in circuits operating at low levels. For example, I noticed that for years Conrad Johnson has used all film caps in the power supplies of their preamps. A C-J PV-10A had NO electrolytics in it's operating power supply. If you think about it, the subtle sonic difference that this approach might bring should be most important in a component like the PV-10A with it's phono stage and line stage- rather high levels of gain employed here, and it is the "first thing" to "touch" the audio signal. Any aberrations introduced would be magnified by the power amp- so it seems most important to "purify" the lower level stages and sources first, and after that is done, turn to the power supply of the amp stage.

Just a thought.


Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

RE: Just a thought?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 07:07:18
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 I'd say more than just a thought! You, CB and the others have offered excellent advice. and I believe I will save my 36 dollars and ~two hours of work.
Speaking of C-J, I HAD noticed that my PR-R preamp had no 'lytics anywhere- always thought that seemed unusual. LOTS of polystyrene caps in that thing. Had an inconsistently bad one in it giving a severe coming-and-going DC offset problem until I finally replaced all four OP coupling caps and all has been well since. Thanks much.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Thanks to all, will cancel project. nt., posted on May 25, 2015 at 07:08:55
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 nt
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 15:54:24
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 You want a sonic upgrade. Get the schematic and check to make sure all your resistors IN the signal path are metal film. THAT'S a cheap and big sonic upgrade! Except for the work to get them in there.

Unless you're having a specific problem with those caps - WHY?

If you think it's time for the amp to be restored then let a pro have at it.

 

Will look at resistors., posted on May 25, 2015 at 16:23:06
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Have decided against the PS cap upgrade based on advice given here, but the resistor idea seems good. Will check. Unit not in need of restoration, just wanting to do some upgrades if cost reasonable and relatively simple and effective.. Thanks for the tip.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Will look at resistors., posted on May 25, 2015 at 17:18:30
Blackdog
Manufacturer

Posts: 1505
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 20, 2006
 Don't waste your time with this either. All the resistors are metal film,and of good quality. Also really fussy to replace.


Dan Santoni

 

Thanks, Dan. Probably should just enjoy unit as is. nt., posted on May 25, 2015 at 18:02:49
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Agreed, posted on May 26, 2015 at 06:06:18
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 If the resistors are already metal film then as stated below - leave it alone.

I don't know if you can eeeck out more from this amp without "experimentation" and eventual "destruction". Been there! Just leave it to be rebuilt at the appropriate time by a pro!!!!

If you are just not happy then consider another amp or even preamp.

 

RE: Thanks, Dan. Probably should just enjoy unit as is. nt., posted on May 27, 2015 at 10:11:20
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 Hi, Mark,
I've been reading this thread with interest because I've been using a MF A3.5 integrated since 2007 and have been enjoying it a lot. It's been the only pre/power source through upgrades in the turntable, phono stage and cartridge, a CD player (including a tube buffer and DAC), and speakers. With each change in the system I could easily hear the improvements in sound. (Well, one speaker "upgrade" turned out to be a downgrade and I quickly replaced them with a true upgrade.) So good or bad, right or wrong, my stereo has basically been built around the A3.5. All I can say in my defense is that the system sounds very, very good and I haven't had the urge to upgrade anything for some time now.

But, I know that the A3.5 is getting older and have wondered what an upgraded pre/power source might sound like. Trouble is, I'm not sure what the next step up might be in a modern integrated amp. Parasound's new Halo Integrated? I'm not in any hurry to find out and I may decide to go ahead and have the A3.5 rebuilt when the time comes. What have you been considering?

Regards,
Tom

 

RE: MF A3.5, posted on May 27, 2015 at 17:21:45
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 Hi Tom- glad you posted!
This thread has likely given the impression that I'm unhappy with the 3.5, but honestly that's not at all the case. It's a great unit; normally it's used in my back-room system though now it's doing temp duty as the bass panel amp for my newly bi-amped Maggie 3.6's until I pick up something more ideal. Anyway, the fact is that most (all?) non-cost-is-no-object components like the A3.5 are built to a price point, with good-to-very good, but not premium, parts inside. So, just as a fun project, I was looking at making it perhaps even just a little better with some parts upgrades, as people often do with other components. Probably won't now, based on advice here; no sense in wasting money for nothing.
As regards possible replacements, the Parasound and the newer MF's would come to mind. But refurbishing this one would certainly be very acceptable.

Mark in NC
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Musical Fidelity integrated- PS cap upgrade cost/benefit?, posted on May 27, 2015 at 18:22:14
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Which MF integrated was well regarded?

 

RE: The M6si seems nice. No direct experience. nt., posted on May 27, 2015 at 18:35:11
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Thanks, Mark! /nm/, posted on May 29, 2015 at 05:28:14
tketcham
Audiophile

Posts: 6701
Location: East of the 100th meridian USofA
Joined: March 21, 2005
Contributor
  Since: October 1, 2005
 Tom

 

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