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6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?

72.37.249.92
Posted on March 4, 2015 at 11:38:35
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 Besides the obviously tube rolling options with the 6922 what are the other differences? Pros/cons? Sound quality differences?

If you search these threads you find mention in the past of an increasing unreliability of the 6922 but that was years ago (when the 6H30 first came on the scene). But is there any truth to that or was it hype?

Has the 6H30 stood the test of time or is it a mistake?

Thanks

 

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RE: 6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?, posted on March 4, 2015 at 13:39:19
AbeCollins
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 The 6H30 and 6922 have stood the test of time. However, many find the lack of 6H30 options to hinder their ability to tube roll. That said, I've had a couple of 6H30 based preamps and when I found the ARC LS25mkII to be less warm and rich in the mids than I wanted I didn't have much choice except to sell the thing and buy a preamp that I could tube roll.



 

RE: 6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?, posted on March 4, 2015 at 18:42:29
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 They are very, very different tubes, designed at different times, for different purposes.

I'd probably go for the 6h30 in a line stage for a myriad of reasons. (lower Rp, lower gain, etc)

 

6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 07:39:13
Charlie8521
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Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
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 I was told once that the 6922 was never designed for audio. On the other hand the 12AX7 was. Any thoughts on the original intent/purpose of the 6922. When I bought my ARC pre I specifically steered clear of the 6922, to include in part that ARC seemed to have switched over to the 6H30.

 

RE: 6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?, posted on March 5, 2015 at 09:13:37
onemug
Audiophile

Posts: 1276
Location: So. California
Joined: April 19, 2003
 I have a couple of CJ preamps using those tubes, hard to pick a favorite. The choice of tube is one thing, how it's implemented in the design is another.

When rolling 6922's, I sure liked the tone of the JJ's but found the reliability/durability rate of them to be suspect but other brands were fine. Just buy from a reputable dealer like our Jim McShane.

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 09:56:19
Palustris
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Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
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 The 12AX7, 6DJ8/6922, and the 6N30P were all engineered to be linear amplifying devices. Their purpose is simply to take a small signal on the grid and transform in into a large signal on the plate with as little noise and distortion as possible. The 6DJ8/6922, and the 6N30P were engineered decades after the 12AX7 and so benefit from a different construction technique of the cathode/grid/plate structure to improve the radio frequency performance or in the case of the 6N30P to be used in missile guidance systems. Does that disqualify it from audio use? Not if high gain, low impedance, low noise, with high reliability are the engineering criteria. The Ford GT40 was engineered to win Le Mans; does that mean the street version can't be used to go to the grocery store?

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:07:55
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 In addition to what Palustris said, the Raytheon 6922 datasheet, for example, specifies that the tube is very well suited as an audio frequency amplifier.

The bandwidth and noise requirements of a tube going into an oscilloscope are quite a bit higher than those of a tube going into a piece of audio equipment, which is why they may not have said "designed for audio".

There are certainly tubes that are poorly suited for audio, though this is generally more clearly reflected in their curves (distortion) or noise performance above anything else.

 

6922 reliability, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:37:14
TheBrewmaster
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Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 Thanks for the feedback and info. When you say you found reliability/durability of the JJ's to be suspect, was it inconsistency in tube life or quality (some good and some bad) or generally they just have a short life always?
Besides JJ, what other brands did you prefer the sound of?
Thanks

 

RE: 6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:38:07
TheBrewmaster
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Posts: 365
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 Yeah that's pretty much what I've read about as well. Thanks

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:45:16
TheBrewmaster
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Posts: 365
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 Interesting discussion. Thanks.

I have a Cary that uses 6SN7 and I am really quite fond of the sound.

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:54:41
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
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 What is the difference between the 6N30P and the 6H30 ?

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 10:55:26
AbeCollins
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 Does it have a suitable trunk for groceries? ;-)



 

RE: 6922 vs 6H30 in preamps?, posted on March 5, 2015 at 11:58:47
AbeCollins
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 Funny thing is, I found the BAT VK-30SE to be relatively rich and 'dark' sounding where the ARC was less weighty in the lower mids and bass, or some might say lean and brighter sounding relative to the BAT.

Both are nice linestages that use the 6H30 but they sound completely different. Go figure. In either case though, there's not much one can do to change the sound as there's a limited selection of 6H30 to choose from.

I ended up with the Aesthetix Calypso linestage which is fairly versatile like the ARC and BAT, but it used more abundantly available tubes. I tried a few until I got it to sound the way I wanted.

In fact, I chose the Calypo as a replacement for my ARC LS25mkII when I had my Bryston monoblocks. I needed a linestage that added some warmth, body, and soul to the otherwise unlistenable (to me) Brystons.

Your profile says you have the Pass Labs X250.5, Cary SLP98L, and ARC LS16mkII. Given your experience with this gear I think you know what I'm talking about. The ARC LS25mkII sounds very similar to the LS16mkII which I also owned for a while. And I would bet that the Cary sounds more robust and full-bodied than your ARC.

For what it's worth, I had the Cary SLP-05 (6SN7 tubes) and that linestage coupled to my Pass X150.5 was one of my best sounding systems ever.



 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 12:54:50
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 NO, and probably no room for a spouse :) Do you own one?

 

I just abbreviated, posted on March 5, 2015 at 12:56:56
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 The current mfg Sovtek and Electro mark them differently. So I didn't try to list the suffix. Is there a difference, I don't know.

 

Great Feedback, we are all a little smarter, posted on March 5, 2015 at 12:59:16
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 914
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
 Great Feedback, we are all a little smarter

 

RE: 6922 never intended for audio, posted on March 5, 2015 at 13:35:44
AbeCollins
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I have a spouse who sometimes thinks I own her! ;-)

 

A Porsche Boxster..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 14:27:13
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 on the other hand has two trunks quite capable of ferrying groceries, luggage, golf clubs, etc.

Wasn't overly impressed driving a C6 Vette when wifey and I were looking in 2013.

 

According to Victor Khomenko, posted on March 5, 2015 at 14:36:24
E-Stat
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 a 6H30 is equivalent to four 6922s in terms of capability. Along with his fine products, if you look at the evolution of preamps by Audio Research and Conrad-Johnson, you'll find a decided reduction in the number of tubes used for equivalent, if not better performance.

I'm quite pleased with the recent purchase of an ARC SP20 which uses four of the beasties.

 

RE: According to Victor Khomenko, posted on March 5, 2015 at 14:52:38
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
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 "I'm quite pleased with the recent purchase of an ARC SP20 which uses four of the beasties."

So you are impressed with the SP20. I have not heard it. What have you had to compare it to (tube wise)? I am just looking for some context in comparisons. Thanks

 

It replaced an SP9 MKIII, posted on March 5, 2015 at 14:58:27
E-Stat
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 but I've heard various models from Conrad-Johnson (ARTII, MET), Atma-Sphere and higher end Audio Research stuff.

While I prefer the harmonic "rightness" of tubes, I favor a neutral tonal balance.

 

Best to understand the heater circuit...., posted on March 5, 2015 at 15:23:56
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
 of the device!
the 6H30 heater(Ih)draws 900mA

Cheers,
W

 

RE: A Porsche Boxster..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 15:39:44
AbeCollins
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Did you get a Boxster? I would love to get a Cayman S but I'm not real familiar with Porche pricing. I'm starting to understand that base price means nothing. Oh, you want a steering wheel do you? Cha ching! That will cost you an extra $xxx. A clock? That will be another $xxx. ;-)

Seriously though, I'd love a Cayman S. Maybe a stripped down pre-owned someday.



 

RE: It replaced an SP9 MKIII, posted on March 5, 2015 at 15:44:48
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 Pretty good list there. I'm fairly new to tubes myself and my experience is limited (a couple of years now with Cary and ARC LS-16mkII tube preamps).Thanks for the info.

 

RE: A Porsche Boxster..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 15:47:22
E-Stat
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 Got a base '13 model with PDK, chrono package (includes launch control) and a few other goodies, including a more optioned steering wheel. Yes, there's lots to fill in a la carte!

I drive the hand-me-down S2000 (and the ST1300). :)

 

RE: A Porsche Boxster..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 15:56:39
AbeCollins
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Very nice! Lets see, Boxster or S2000? I'd take either drop top with spring around the corner.

I have a relatively practical '13 335i xDrive (we get snow here) and my beater 98 Tacoma truck for HomeDepot runs..... for when I want to drop off burned out CFLs! ;-)

Enjoy your new toy.

 

For snow - like we have today in the mid south, posted on March 5, 2015 at 16:22:58
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
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Contributor
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 a 4WD Honda Ridgeline serves duty.

 

RE: According to Victor Khomenko, posted on March 5, 2015 at 18:16:00
hahax@verizon.net
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 I asked Victor at an NJAS club meeting years ago why he called the 6H30 a super tube. He replied that what made it super was its very low output impedance which made it easier to design amp stages that could drive the next stage more easily without the complication of an intermediary cathode follower stage.

Just guessing from the above, perhaps he meant it was as good as paralleling 6922s to get low output impedance.

 

RE: 6922 reliability, posted on March 5, 2015 at 19:31:28
onemug
Audiophile

Posts: 1276
Location: So. California
Joined: April 19, 2003
 My CJ preamp is an ART and uses 5-6922's per channel. The JJ's would start off excellent sounding but after a few months the sound would get flat or center image would be off. I'd pull them and in each channel maybe one or two would test "ok" but the other 3 or 4...not so good. I'd buy 10 more and all the magic would be back only to have them go wonky again in a few months. btw, I do not leave my preamp on 24/7. Average on time was/is 4 hours and it's on most days but not every day.

Might just be a rumor but I did hear the JJ might have stepped up QC recently. They do have an Amperex type sound to them and are 1/10 to 1/20 the cost which adds up to big savings when you need 10 of them but it's fuzzy math when they don't last very long.

Brands I like...I've had a couple preamps that just used 2-6922's (ah the good ol days). My favorites were (still are) Amperex, Siemen and Telefunken. I've been using EH's for the last year or two from Jim McShane with his testing and grading and am very happy with him and them.

 

Yes, you are correct sir, posted on March 5, 2015 at 20:53:38
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
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 Abe I do know what you are talking about and have had a similar experience with Cary. I do have the x250.5 but the last few months I've been running an Aleph 5 that I acquired last year with my old standby Forte F44 solid state preamp. Just last week I hooked up the Cary 98 with the Aleph (first time with that particular combo) and WOW the magic came back just like it had been when I had the Cary hooked up with the x250.5. Maybe even better actually in the mids and highs (definitely not in the bass, the A5 can't hold a candle to the x250.5 in the bottom end).

I love the sound of the Cary with the Pass amps and I can't imagine ever getting rid of this preamp (unless I ever trade if for the SLP-05 that is!!).

I'm still like the idea of further exploring ARC models, just for the hell of it. I've always been enamored with ARC since my "formative years" in high end audio in the early 90's when I was a poor kid right out of college and could only lust after those cool-looking classic American ARC designs. Now at this time in my life, I can afford some of the those more expensive toys! Well, at least the older pre-owned versions :)

Never thought I'd say this, but as I get older I am beginning to understand the appeal of retro or "vintage" gear, and for me, the ARC stuff kind of fits that bill.

 

RE: According to Victor Khomenko, posted on March 6, 2015 at 07:47:39
E-Stat
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 ...perhaps he meant it was as good as paralleling 6922s to get low output impedance.

I think you're right. The very nice Conrad Johnson ART preamplifier paralleled five 6922s per channel to meet that end!

 

Yep, posted on March 6, 2015 at 12:22:57
onemug
Audiophile

Posts: 1276
Location: So. California
Joined: April 19, 2003
 Specs on mine indicate <500 ohms output impedance. Only RCA outs on it but never had a problem driving interconnects 15 and 20 feet long.

fwiw, my other CJ preamp is the ACT 2.2 which uses 2-6h30's per side and it's output impedance specs are the same as the ART's. Neither use a cathode follower.

 

RE: 6922 reliability, posted on March 6, 2015 at 16:42:48
Daverz
Audiophile

Posts: 2104
Location: So. California
Joined: September 24, 2002
 I've had similar problems with my BAT 3iX (four 6922s). I get maybe 6 months of use before tube rush or crackling starts to bother me. I've gone through a lot EH 6922s. Part of the problem is certainly the excessive gain in my system (20 dB from the BAT and around 30 dB from my Rogue M-180 amps.)

 

RE: 6922 reliability, posted on March 6, 2015 at 18:51:50
onemug
Audiophile

Posts: 1276
Location: So. California
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 That is a lot of gain.

Curious... do you buy the standard tubes or pay extra for anything like low noise, balanced, matched or whatever?

 

RE: 6922 reliability, posted on March 7, 2015 at 00:57:19
Daverz
Audiophile

Posts: 2104
Location: So. California
Joined: September 24, 2002
 I usually pay for low noise selection if it's offered. As far as I understand, matching is not needed for this application.

 

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