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If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp..

76.24.78.116
Posted on January 1, 2015 at 14:51:54
Freo-1
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 Meanwhile, I'll stick with well engineered tube gear, thank you very much. Every so often, I'll try listening to a Class D amp to see if they have gotten better. They have, BUT, they still do not present music as well as properly engineered tube amps. The best sounding Class D I've heard so far is the Yamaha MX-D1, followed by the N-Core. While they did have some positive aspects, compared to tubes, they lack depth to the sound, and the midrange and treble just do not sound right compared to tubes.

I found this link which presents an argument as to why Class D falls short. I also realize there are some of you who are charter members of KGB/FSB wing of the class D fan club, and don't take kindly to any other viewpoint. However, have not seen any valid counter arguments against the link yet.

Here is another link which goes into some reasons why tubes are still highly valued for audio. Check out the side bar about noise with the 6AU6 vs. JFET.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes

" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

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Gee, thanks, that is so big of you...., posted on January 1, 2015 at 15:40:35
kuribo
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 And please enjoy the sound of your tube amp. Unlike others, I won't try to tell you what's wrong with your opinion or try to reference some study or PhD thesis in some lame attempt at proving the inferiority of your opinion and the superiority of mine. I don't have to justify my tastes to anyone. I have no need to bash your choice in some sort of sad attempt at making my choice seem "correct".

Neither you nor I really need any outside validations to justify our tastes. Trying to somehow "prove" your choices are superior by finding fault with other's simply makes you look insecure and needy.

It's really ok to like whatever you like.

There is no "best" or "perfect" amp. Engineering is about compromises and all amps are just that, a trade off between various factors. If there was such a thing as perfect, there wouldn't be so many choices. Everyone makes their choice dependent on their personal tastes and how they place import on the trade-offs inherent in each type of amp. There is no right or wrong answer. There is no need to try to "prove" your preferences are "right" or better than someone else's. It doesn't make your choice "right" by making mine or someone else's "wrong"...

PS-Your link is FROM a class d amp manufacturer. You appear to have missed the critical wording in the last sentence....But that's fine; remember, it's really ok to like whatever you like.

 

Class D is a work in progress and I hope they continue to improve......, posted on January 1, 2015 at 16:21:09
AbeCollins
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 While 'traditional' designs have been under refinement for a hundred years, Class D amplification is still a relatively new thing at least for audiophile amps.

While I have tried a number of Class D amps over the years.....

PS Audio HCA-2 stereo
Bel Canto M300 monos: (ICEpower based)
Nuforce Ref 9 v3 monos: (proprietary inhouse design)
Tripath Super "T" Amp stereo: (Tripath chip)
Wyred4Sound SX-500 monos: (ICEpower based)
Rogue Medusa Hybrid Class D stereo: (Hypex Ncore 400 based)
NC400 monos: (Hypex Ncore 400 based)
NC1200 monos*: (Hypex Ncore NC1200 based)

....I always find myself going back to quality Class AB solid-state or a vacuum tube amp. I'm presently running the Audio Research VSI-60 with KT120 power tubes or my Rogue Cronus Magnum also with KT120 power tubes. It may just be a matter of personal preference but I have yet to find a Class D amp that I can live with for more than a couple months.

* These NCore NC1200 based monos were at a friend's house driving a pair of large Magnepan 3.7 speakers and they were wonderful! However, those NC1200 based monos were up in the $10,000/pair range. I can achieve at least comparable sonics in a sub $2500 tube amp so why fork over $10K on Class D unless there's another compelling reason.... like efficiency, low heat output, size, weight, etc??

Again, this may just be a personal preference issue for me as I have tried various Class D amps over the years. I'll keep trying but I'll give it rest for a while and give them more time to catch up. Will Class D improve much or are they stuck where they are for now??

 

It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 16:37:38
kuribo
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 "Will Class D improve much or are they stuck where they are for now??"

You may be stuck where you are....in other words, your preferences and biases may be fairly set. In any case, no reason you have to like class d amps. Enjoy whatever it is that like. It's a hobby, not a job...

Let's remember too that there are many different class d amp designs, just like there are different types of tubes and ss. To generalize them as a class is simply ignorant. Some have a vary load dependent frequency response and others do not, depending on whether they have post output filter feedback or not. As someone has said "Some of the "warmth" that tube amp lovers usually prefer comes from an uneven frequency response caused by the high output impedance of many tube amps, so you might prefer a class D amp that does not include the choke in the feedback loop (and thus has higher output impedance)."

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 16:49:56
AbeCollins
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 Let's remember too that there are many different class d amp designs, just like there are different types of tubes and ss. To generalize them as a class is simply ignorant.

Not really, unless there are other players that dominate this arena besides Hypex, Tripath, and ICEpower. Sure, there are slight variations in design 'around' this narrow selection of Class D modules, but otherwise they all share the same foundation.... a class comprised of Tripath, Hypex, or ICEpower.

Well, I have yet to hear a Class D amp that I can live with. However, there are many solid-state Class AB amps and several more vacuum tube amps that I thoroughly enjoy.

So yes, it's a personal preference and so far I have heard nothing in the class of Class D amps that I prefer. Perhaps they have a 'sound of their own' which I'll never warm up to. I don't know, but I'm willing to try again in a couple years..... as I have over the past several years.


 

You are reading too much into this..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:20:22
Freo-1
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 Not trying to prove "one type is better than another type" per se. The links are there to provide some "engineering background" as to why the sonics are different from the Class D and tube technologies. Let's be honest: Tubes are MUCH more linear devices than sand, and Class D is just not as linear. Look at sine/square waves from a o-scope, and one sees what is being referred to here. I fully agree that there is no perfect amp, and that all amps fall short (to a greater or lesser extent) from perfection. I also agree with Nelson Pass, in that "they are switch amps with tons of feedback and it's amazing that they work as well as they do"

There are both good and poor examples of all amp topologies. For example, the Yamaha MX-D1 was a very pleasant listening experience, and the clean 500 watts was enjoyable. I can certainly understand how some folks would enjoy some of the better high powered Class D amps. This is especially true if they were comparing them to mediocre sand or tube amps. Having said that, compared to the better tube or sand amps, the shortfalls with the Class D get in the way of maximum enjoyment. For me, comparing the Class D offerings to a custom 110 watt tube set up exposed significant sonic differences in the mid-range and treble, as well as the 3D rendering.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:21:05
kuribo
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 There are indeed significant differences in design that have major effects on the performance and sound of class d amps. One of the major differences is whether or not feedback is taken from before of after the output filter. This can determine whether or not the frequency response is independent of load or not. There are self-oscillating designs and non-self oscillating, etc. There are open loop and closed loop designs...etc....If they were all basically the same, there wouldn't be the large variety available in the market, with different people preferring one type over the other...kind of like tube and ss amps....hmmmmmm.....

 

I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:21:19
bullethead
 come by, have a cigar and relax with me. I have buffers (cathode followers) with tubes at the sources and then to a class D amp, sounds great.

if I wasn't paranoid of setting my house on fire I would use tubes for amplification, no question.

 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:27:33
Freo-1
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Posts: 1330
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No worries, Mate!

Here is a pic of the 110 watt tube amps. They have high quality internal parts, and use NOS 12SN7/1625 tubes. The preamp is a Thomas Meyer 6AH4 design, and is a perfect match for the power amps.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

beauty, posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:29:43
bullethead
 really nice my friend. enjoy :)

 

Hardly..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:33:28
kuribo
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 "Not trying to prove "one type is better than another type" per se."

That is exactly what you are trying to do...Providing "engineering background" to support your preference. If you weren't, you would be posting this tripe.

Really, glad you have found something that suits you. Now please stop trying to justify it by "proving" there is something inherently "wrong" or substandard with something else....

Many people prefer class d to the sound of tubes. You aren't going to change that with your "engineering background" any more than I will change a tube fanciers opinion with similar "engineering background" of the negatives of tube amps. If you want to compare objective performance, I would be happy to compare specs of the ncore with your tube amp.

Again, you can enjoy what you like without denigrating the preferences of others or trying to make your choice somehow "superior".

 

RE: Hardly..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:42:37
Freo-1
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Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 The only tripe is coming from you, mate. I'm not saying anyone is "wrong" for preferring one topology over another. Just pointing out data that could help to explain sonic differences. However, it seems you are peeved because you don't like the physics, as it different from your per-conceived view of Class D.

Dial down the arrogance.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:46:41
AbeCollins
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 So all of these Tripath, ICEpower, and Ncore modules offer the designer a choice of......

... feedback before or after the output filter, self-oscillating designs and non-self oscillating, open loop and closed loop designs... ? ? ?

Regardless, all I am saying is that I have yet to find a Class D amp that I like. But I plan to keep trying every couple years or so. Hopefully I'll be in for a surprise someday.




 

Sweet! Reminds me of my 807 CW Transmitter, posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:55:36
AbeCollins
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 Who makes those amps of yours? Are they available in a stereo version, or integrated amp?

I had a CW / AM transmitter back in the 1970's that was built by my uncle in the 1960's using a couple 807 power tubes.

I used that 807 based CW transmitter for a couple years contacting other HAM radio operators from all over the globe. 807s were abundant, cheap, reliable, and rugged so they were popular among DIY HAM radio guys who built their own equipment.

I think the 1625 is like the 807 but with 12v filament and different pinout.

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:11:37
kuribo
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Tripath is prefilter feedback. Load variant frequency response. Many say they sound "tube like" with the right speakers.

Ice is post and prefilter feedback.

Hypex is post filter, self-oscillating.

Spectron and Nuforce have their own proprietary design.

Pascal and Anaview have come out with new, 3rd generation class d designs that many are raving about. Martens uses an Anaview in their $40K amp that has gotten great reviews.

So, yes, there are many different types of class d amps, even some hybrids with tube stages.

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:18:09
AbeCollins
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I have heard Tripath, Hypex, ICEpower, and even Nuforce.

The Rogue Medusa hybrid uses Hypex NC400 with a vacuum tube driver. I thought the Rogue was the worse of the bunch by far which surprised me given how much I love their all vacuum tube designs.

My Tripath amp was very nice but under powered. I think it was something in the range of 10 - 15wpc. The thought of trying a higher power tripath amp has crossed my mind, possibly an Audio Research model.

I haven't found 'the one' yet.





 

RE: Hardly..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:19:41
kuribo
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Joined: June 27, 2000
 You are talking out of both sides of your face...First you say post some drivel about "why Class D falls short", then back peddle with "Just pointing out data that could help to explain sonic differences".

"falling short" is a value judgment. No one has said there aren't sonic differences. Nice try....

Like I said, you want to talk objective performance, post your amp's specs. I will do the same for ncore and we'll see what the physics has to say about which amp performs better objectively.

If you want to talk about the superiority of your amps "sound", I am not interested.

 

Abe, you are correct!, posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:20:46
Freo-1
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Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
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That is why I had the amps built. They make a great audio tube, they are all MIL-SPEC, and they do not cost much. They are a 12V 807, as you adroitly point out.

The trick to get them to sound good is to use separate screen supplies and regulation. These amps are almost bullet proof.


Here is a pic of the insides of the 6AH4 preamp. It's incredibly quiet.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:21:15
kuribo
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 Interesting because many are raving about Rogue's tube/class d hybrids.

Try Anaview's new ALS1000 or the Pascal modules in D-Sonic. If you read some of the European forums, many are replacing their tube and class a ss amps with them

To each his own.

 

Why so hostile?, posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:39:17
Freo-1
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 I think almost everyone who participates in this site understands that when a comment about sound falling short is made, it is a value judgement. The links provided at the start of the thread were written by ENGINEERS, not some wacko audiophile. :-)

I agree that measurements are important. No amp that measures poorly will sound good. Most measurements presented are incomplete, as they show frequency responses into a straight resistive load, which tells one nothing about how it sounds into an actual speaker load, with the cross-overs and back emf to deal with. Remember the amps from Asia in the 80's with the very low distortion that sounded rather dreadful.

Lastly, the Yamaha Class D was a unique design, with all premium parts.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:45:05
ahendler
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 This has come up before. I have and always have had an all tube system except for 6 months when I had a pair of Gilmore Raptors class D amps. They are modified Ice modules with a hugh linear power supply. Only my Berning ZH270's sound better on my Maggies than the Gilmore's. Abe always lists all the class D amps he has heard but never the Gilmores. The Gilmores were the late Al Sekalas favorite amps on his Maggies.
Alan

 

RE: Why so hostile?, posted on January 1, 2015 at 18:55:15
ahendler
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 First I am an engineer and a tube guy. I have used in the past when my Lowthers were my main speakers many low powered set amps that sounded glorius. They also measured terrible. As an engineer I pay no attention to specs. Specs are usful to a designer but not to a buyer. All I care about is how something sounds. I have never found a correlation between measurements and how something sounds. If there was a correlation we would not be listening to tube amps any more. Some class D amps sound great like the Gilmores I mentioned above. The ops post did come across as a bash of class D amps. Maybe not intended but why post the link in the first place if it wasn't an attempt to prove your bias. I could be wrong but I don't think so. Been watching the Monk marathon all week
Alan

 

RE: Why so hostile?, posted on January 1, 2015 at 19:08:44
kuribo
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 Why the obvious class d troll- "you can keep your class d amp"? Why so concerned with what others think about class d? Why continue to damn class d with your faint praise for the Yamaha? Why try to validate your current flavor of the month amp (let's see, on audiocircle.com you have gushed about your vintage 80's receivers, the tda amps, the Yamaha, and I am sure several others) by comparing it to class d?

Your initial post shows you are nothing but a troll with an agenda.....

Now, when trying to validate your tube amp preferences, you bring up objective engineering "data" but back peddle when I offer to compare specs with the usual dodge about how specs don't accurately portray the performance with real loads. How do you know your amp performs any better with real loads than a class d amp? Do you have any data or is this more speculation?

If you were simply happy with your amp and wanted to share, you could have done so quite easily without the slap at class d and the insults to those that happen to be quite happy with it.

 

How something sounds is all that matters..., posted on January 1, 2015 at 19:16:20
kuribo
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 but some people aren't satisfied with that. They have to have some sort of intellectual validation for their own preferences so they can claim superiority. It comes down to insecurity.

The op's post came across as a bash of class d because that is exactly what it was-a troll.

 

My really limited experience, posted on January 1, 2015 at 19:23:35
G Squared
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 Is with my Panny SAXR57 driving a set of B&W DM 110 monitors in my bedroom. It sounds nice. Certainly not SOTA, but at the price I paid probably unbeatable for 2 channel SQ, power and features.
Gsquared

 

RE: If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp.., posted on January 1, 2015 at 19:52:41
daleda
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 I owned a Spectron Musician II and it is the one amp I regret selling. Was really impressive with my VSR 5HSE's I had for a time. I am a tube amp guy too but John Ulrick seemed to get it right - he just would not play Stereophile's game to "pay" to review - too bad really.

 

RE: Sweet! Reminds me of my 807 CW Transmitter, posted on January 1, 2015 at 20:41:36
rick_m
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 Yup, downright nostalgic...

With 6SN7's and 807's and maybe a 5U4 or 5Y3 rectalfire you could build all your ham transmitters AND audio things. The transformers WERE a little different though... But I usually used 6L6's for audio. Turning up the way-back machine crank do you remember the Harvey-Wells transmitter? It used 807's for both the final and plate modulator. My high school had one. Supposedly it even worked at 6 and 2 meters but I bet not very well. We didn't have any of the right overtone crystals to try it up there.

Rick

 

RE: Class D is a work in progress and I hope they continue to improve......, posted on January 2, 2015 at 01:41:54
Disbeliever
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 Whilst I am not into antique tubes or JFETS I have to agree with every thing Abe says re Class D. I would not touch it with the proverbial BP IMO it is expensive Dreck if you know what that means, I suspect you do.

 

"if I wasn't paranoid of setting my house on fire I would use tubes for amplification, no question.", posted on January 2, 2015 at 04:21:54
Ozzy
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 You have issues, no doubt of that.

You are considering the wrong tube amps if they are a fire hazard.

Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Regardless of Topology selected .., posted on January 2, 2015 at 04:41:05
A.Wayne
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 Unless you are using 100db sensitive speakers , 125/ch is not enough for recordings with really good DR , regardles of topology selected ...


Regards

 

Absolutely., posted on January 2, 2015 at 04:50:33
Jack G
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 As a long time tube, and especially SET listener, I've switched over to class D amps. At the moment, I've got D-sonic's M3-1500 amps in my main system. They use a Pascal module.
Here's a list of tube amps I currently own:
Jadis DA-60
Cary SLI-80 (triode version)
Rogers High fidelity 100
Rogue Cronus
Wavelength Cardinals
Moth 2A3
Almarro (the big SET, forget the model)
ASL Leyla
Custom 10Y SETs from george wright
WAVAC MD_811

I also own:
Bel canto eVo 2i
W4S STI-500
W4S mAmps
Lavardin (forget the model)
Einstein Absolute Tune

Used to own:
Ayre V3
Portal Panache
Wright Sound Labs 3.5

All of the above have their pluses and minuses, but I choose to listen to the D-Sonics. Are the the best on the planet? No, but I like them. They do most things very well. Plus, they are a perfect match for a passive pre. I haven't heard the Hypex NC 1200s, the price is prohibitive.
To each his own.
Jack


 

thanks ozzy, posted on January 2, 2015 at 05:03:51
bullethead
 if I leave the tube amp on lets say for 12 hours at a time unattended would that be a fire hazard? Just wondering. I read some horror stories.

 

RE: Class D is a work in progress and I hope they continue to improve......, posted on January 2, 2015 at 05:16:20
A.Wayne
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 Abe,

My experiences have been the same , preferring linear amplfiers with the exception for the bass , where subs are powered by class -d , yet i can hear and see why many would like class-d , it's high power gives them a great jump factor and unless you are running high powered toobs you cant get such out of low powered toobs. What most may actually prefer is toob sound vs ss in clipping and before the usual dogmatic responses , this is not a me vs them deal , i have all topologies sitting here and easily go between them and my issue with class-d for my main ribbons is the top end, regardless i can hear why others will go for the jump factor of class-D and like anything else if care is taken to optimize a particular setup , biases will tend to lean that way , otherwards my system maynot be optimized for class-d and after years of optimization for linear a , a/ab amplifiers , i'm sure there's an inherent bias towards linear, anyway I'm open and not married to any particular topology and if had to choose , i would prefer high ( my preference) powered class-d over low powered toobs all day ( i listen to a lot of large format material) with a few exceptions as i did with the Cary 805B with 93db speakers , it was great once you stayed away from large format recordings with high DR ...

Takes a lot of power to get realistic DR , lots of power or pretty high sensitivity.....


Another :

Tubes vs. Transistors White Paper
http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors


You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping. More power is needed in larger rooms or if you like to play your music more loudly than most.


The key point I'm trying to make is that audiophiles usually are using underpowered amplifiers and are therefore listening to clipping amplifiers most of the time. When an amplifier is clipping, it is behaving (and sounding) grossly differently than its measured performance would suggest. This is because we always measure amplifiers when they are operating within their design parameters -- never when clipping. A clipping amp has horrible performance, so attempting to measure it is a waste of time.

Now let's analyze tube and transistor equipment with regards to clipping, since that is the condition to which we usually listen. There is "hard" and "soft" clipping. If you go back to the oscilloscope investigations, you will see that solid state amps clip "hard" in that there is an absolute, rock-solid, limit to how loudly they will play. As soon as you reach that point, they immediately clip. This point is their power supply rail voltage.

A tube amp clips "softly." This is because tubes produce a cloud of electrons around their cathodes. This cloud has surplus electrons available so that for sudden current surges (such as musical peaks), a tube can deliver more current (electrons) and voltage for a few milliseconds before they clip. So their clipping threshold is not rigidly fixed as it is in a transistor amp. It varies depending on the dynamics of the music played.


- Roger Sanders


.


Regards ..


 

RE: Why so hostile?, posted on January 2, 2015 at 05:40:11
Freo-1
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 The thread headline was written as tongue in cheek, and it was meant to make light of the excessive enthusiasm sometimes gushed over by members. (I'm as guilty as anyone over this :-) ).

To me, the trolls are the guys who lose their minds whenever someone fails to praise their choice of gear for musical reproduction, and starts name calling.

The whole purpose of these sites is to post observations, opinions, and factoids. An exchange of ideas and experiences. People who attempt to validate that "they are the only ones who are correct, and if you disagree, you must be a troll" are devoid of open mindedness. This is no venue to mandate political correctness. There are many ways to audio nirvana, with different amp topologies and speaker designs principals. If someone does not like one type of gear as much as another, so bloody what? Get over it, already. It's nothing personal, and anyone who takes it personally should re-evaluate. There have to be reasons why someone prefers x over y, so it's OK to postulate as to why that is so.

If you disagree about a topic, by all means, feel free to express disagreement. Making disagreements personal is small, and is a favorite tactic for folks with political agendas. Disagreements is not trolling. Trying to shut down debate is, and that is what some are promoting.

Some members love their Class D. Cool. I rather enjoyed the Yamaha MX-D1. However, I still hear issues with them, and it's OK to point that out, just like it's OK for all the Class D folks to point out their strengths, and what it is they don't like about tubes, linear sand amps, etc. That is the purpose of these threads, open and stimulate discussion.

I've noticed that some folks put forward the argument that one needs very high power to make music sound accurate, hence their love of Class D. I think there is some validity to this, in that it's a factor to consider. How much of a factor is a area open for debate.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 06:36:09
kuribo
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 Tongue in cheek? No, it was taken as a troll, plain and simple.

I haven't expressed any excessive enthusiasm in posts here about class d. What I have posted about is the inappropriateness of slamming others personal preferences. Some go out of their way to try to prove the unprovable- that there is something "better" or "superior" about their personal preferences. Yours was more of the same- "I like tubes better than class d and here's why class d is inferior". Again, you don't have to prove anything- I doubt anyone really cares what you like. But you do have a right to like what you like without others telling you there is something substandard with what you like.

You can like something without condemning the tastes of others. You really don't need to try and drag something else down to make yours look better.

Again, if you want to debate something that is debatable, try objective performance. Post some performance measurements of your tube amp. As many have said, tube amps have rather poor measured performance when compared to other amp topologies. No doubt you will say, as others have, that they don't care about measurements, they care about the "sound" and they have found tube amps to sound "better" than other amps. That is purely subjective and there is no arguing taste. If you like the sound of tube amps, good for you. Share all you want. Just don't spread bs about how your choice is somehow "superior" to that of others when it is based on a subjective evaluation.

Trying to debate which sounds "better" is a flawed exercise in futility for those with limited knowledge or validation and insecurity issues.

No one said you can't like whatever you want. You don't have to praise class d. But you don't have to post bs about how it "doesn't measure up" as you try to prove your agenda and how much smarter your choice is...I really couldn't care less what you think of class d. What I care about is the lack of respect shown to others who don't share your preferences and the seeming need to push others down so you can stand higher.

 

Switchers in my studio, tubes in the living room., posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:02:06
M-dB
Audiophile

Posts: 295
Location: Nor Cal
Joined: June 26, 2014
 It's been decades since tubes were used in in pre or post production playback for reliability and stability. Some recording engineers use tube microphone preamplifiers in certain situations. Still, ones choice of playback equipment is incredibly subjective and likely the root of this hobby. Why even go there?

In my experience with switching amplifiers I've learned they can be the most diffuclt to integrate. Their inherent presentation can easily magnify issues of AC power, cabling, and RFI, to name a few. I find my nCores perfectly suited powering my Avalon Acoustics Monitors to provide the up front presentation and transparency needed to hear subtle microphone differences. This level of playback is not at all suited for casual listening.

The advancement in computer technologies has enabled the switching speeds needed for modern class D amplification not to mention all the digital source gear and media one may find acceptable.

In my opinion, class D is simply another welcome alternative with its own set of limitations just like tubes and linear solid state. If you wanna gripe about something how about not getting the studio level of fidelity from the media we're paying for.


 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:07:11
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 It was tongue in cheek. I don't recall anyone appointed as the PC police. The only disrespect in this thread is you passing judgement, inferring intent of comment/observations that simply are not there. There was no disrespect or ill will expressed by me. If someone says Class (x) fall short, any reasonable adult would understand that its a opinion. The only ill will is you reading into content. If you do not like the links, too bad. They were written by engineers.

I wasn't referring to you specifically about the over enthusiasm. Most of that is over on another website. I am also guilty of occasional over enthusiasm as well. Lighten up, life is too short for all these falsely perceived slights you incorrectly infer.

Now, objective measurements is a rather interesting topic. Measurements made into resistive loads are OK, but do not tell the whole story about how things sound. As mentioned earlier, many of the 80's Japanese amps had very good specs, yet did not sound all that well. There is a debate to be had regarding what set of measurements would better capture what is heard. Perhaps a spectrum analyzer tapped of the output of the amp to the speaker would better explain what is happening. Then, there is the speaker itself. Some are a easy/benign load, while others can really tax the amp. Some amps do a much better job of delivering into punishing loads than others.

So, let's have a discussion about objective measurements. I agree they can tell us a lot, but not everything, about how a amp/preamp combo will sound.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Switchers in my studio, tubes in the living room., posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:10:41
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 Here Here! This is something I can agree with. :-)

Most of the recording I buy now are SACD classical offerings, and the speakers are ATC with the Super Linear drivers (used in a lot of studios).
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

ones choice of playback equipment is incredibly subjective..Why even go there?, posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:13:19
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Exactly! Why indeed?


"In my opinion, class D is simply another welcome alternative with its own set of limitations just like tubes and linear solid state. If you wanna gripe about something how about not getting the studio level of fidelity from the media we're paying for."

Truer words....


 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:23:39
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Don't be disingenuous. You start out by bashing class d and then try to validate your opinion with "science" by linking to articles to bolster your "opinions" on why class d "doesn't measure up".

Back peddle all you wish but I, as well as others, took it as bashing. I found it offensive.

It's a hobby. It is suppose to be fun. People who come here and put down others preferences with their holier than thou pronouncements about what is "better" or "best" are offensive and obnoxious.

I doubt anyone comes here to get peed on. I am sure with just a little effort you can share your opinions and experiences without bashing others at the same time.

 

RE: ones choice of playback equipment is incredibly subjective..Why even go there?, posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:29:55
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Yep,

I'm just glad my cd player don't get upset with my TT or RR, heck nothing wrong with some NPR jazz on the tuner somenights , really silly , those who bog themselves down with some silly golden rule of "one" ...


Many roads to Damascus ...





Regards..

 

RE: Sweet! Reminds me of my 807 CW Transmitter, posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:45:10
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 No, I don't recall the Harvey-Wells. Our H.S. had the E.F. Johnson Viking TX with VFO knob smack in the middle. The main RX was the Hammarlund HQ-110. We also had something called the Gonset Communicator for VHF but I never used it. These were already pretty old for the 1970's when I was in H.S. but they worked. We received a matching pair of green Heathkit TX and RX my senior year but they needed work.

The 807 TX that I used at home had a 5U4 rectalfire but I have no idea what tubes were used for the AM modulator section. The coolest thing I remember about that TX was the heavy roller inductor that tuned just about anything, not that I was going very far with my fist full of 40M and 15M crystals. Novice class operators back then weren't allowed to use a VFO. ;-)

My main and preferred mode was CW even after graduating up from the Novice class license. I had a Vibroplex bug and later built an electronic keyer designed by WB4VVF. It was called the "WB4VVF Accukeyer" and was featured in a QST Magazine DIY article.

Vibroplex Deluxe Original. The company is still in business and they still make them.



 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 07:57:32
Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009
 Maybe you should chill kuribo!
Besides, anyone with ears knows no currently produced class D amp can hold a candle to the sound of an all tube amp at anywhere near the same price point.
OK, now you can proceed to go off again! :)

 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 08:00:58
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 If you take it as bashing, then that is your issue, not mine mate! The title was written with a tongue in cheek approach. Nobody put anybody down, except you acting as the PC police, taking offense for someone stating that Class D was not the holy grail. :-)

I agree that it is a hobby, and it is supposed to be fun. Also think we should be able to bring up issues about why there are differences in sound presentation. The links provided give some degree of insight as to why the differences exist.

Discussing measurements is a good way to proceed. Ultimately, differences with sound reproduction should be measurable. Not sure the traditional methods provided to the masses is enough data required to sort it out.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp.., posted on January 2, 2015 at 09:13:01
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 The only "counter argument" to any of this is how something sounds.

Everybody has a sales line. For example, Audience claims to produce cables with "low eddy current energy."
Audience markets this aspect because, nobody else does, and because, "Audience believes this to be as important as any other design parameter for optimal performance of audio signal cables."

The excerpt you linked from the Nuforce website is based on their premise that their amplifiers are not class D;

"NuForce is not a Switching Digital Amplifier."
"Instead of a saw tooth digital signal, NuForce has developed and patented a naturally occurring analog modulating signal that flows with the music and adds no noise or jitter into the system. Rather than using imperfect off-the-shelf solutions, NuForce has developed and patented a series of breakthrough advances that have unlocked the huge potential of switching amplifiers, without the problems that pure digital switching amplifiers have been unable to solve; in other words, the best of both worlds."

Is this simply their sales line? Do they back this up with design information or is it something they claim so purchasers of their products can believe they are buying better technology. I can't answer that but I do know that every designer does what they think will create the best product for their price point and market demographics, and their sales force puts their best spin on it.

Many of the main detractors of Class D cite the use of copious amounts of negative feedback. I have linked a discussion about that by Bruno Putzeys, designer of the Ncore modules. Bruno has engineering training, extensive design experience, and has written more than a few papers about his design ideas. Does this make his approach "best," not necessarily, but it does imply perhaps a valid approach. A little more about Bruno can be found at the link below, and through a Google search.

http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/455-searching-for-the-extreme-bruno-putzeys-of-mola-mola-hypex-and-grimm-audio-part-one

Still, all that leads back to how something sounds and how well it matches the end user's goals. I currently own a pair of NC1200 monoblocks and also a very good Class A/B amplifier. I have compared these over a 10-day trial period with the NC1200s and, now that I own a pair, I will continue to compare them for a longer period of time. Before the Class A/B amplifier, I owned a pair of high quality Class A monoblocks that I also compared directly with the NC1200s over a 10-day trial. All three of these amplifiers have output of 300-350 wpc, with the Class A amplifiers doubling at lower impedances and the other two nearly so. Therefore, power has been similar and is not a factor in the comparisons.

So far, each of the three amplifiers have shown their strengths but the Class A monos were ruled out for ergonomic reasons. They all sounded great in my system/room, but different. I am sure good tubed amplifiers also sound great but different from the three I have owned. Class D may or may not get better but, based on comparisons with the amps I have owned, the NC1200 Class D amplifiers can compete with the others. Whether someone would purchase them will come down to the type of sound the buyer enjoys, partnering equipment and ergonomic needs.

 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 09:20:10
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 @ Mendel:

Maybe you like tooby clipping , some are sensitive to it, just like some are to Class-D .... :)

 

Hmmm..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 09:36:01
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Class D amplification is still a relatively new thing at least for audiophile amps.

The Infinity Swamp John Ulrick designed was introduced almost forty years ago.

 

As the resident, posted on January 2, 2015 at 09:44:28
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Class D apologist, that's his job!

Last time was a couple of weeks ago with Phelan's post.

 

Nice post., posted on January 2, 2015 at 10:13:09
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 With all due respect to the OP, I too am of the camp that the more topologies that are out there the better for the consumer, and it is one of the reasons I find today to be the golden age of audio equipment, even if not the golden age of recorded music.

I really liked your post. It may just be common sense, but that doesn't make it easy to set forth in writing is such a clear and convincing manner. Well done.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

It would seem..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 10:28:56
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...that class D amps perform best on Maggies.

I heard the Raptors on Al's system and they sounded terrific.

At their price direct I would jump at a pair...if I had Maggies.

 

RE: Hmmm..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 10:52:59
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Yes, but 'traditional' class A AB amplification was introduced about 100 years ago. ;-)


 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 11:01:13
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Interesting because many are raving about Rogue's tube/class d hybrids.

Yes, Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps got a lot of great press and that was one reason I decided to buy the Rogue Medusa and give it a try, that and the fact that I love the "Rogue sound" with their all vacuum tube gear.

IMHO, the Medusa was very veiled, dynamically soft, and rolled off compared to the Cronus Magnum and Stereo 90 Super Magnum tube amps. On top of that, it was probably the worse Class D amp I ever heard which was a real shame as I was expecting the tube section to do some magic on those Class D Hypex modules. The plain jane basic W4S SX-500 monos were far superior to the 'hybrid Class D' Rogue Medusa.



 

I guess we'll need to wait, posted on January 2, 2015 at 11:02:56
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 another sixty years for switchers to catch up. :)

 

Link Added, posted on January 2, 2015 at 11:21:41
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 Thanks for the kind words Josh.

I corrected a spelling error in my post above and forgot to reattach the link to the Putzeys feedback paper, I have attached it below.

Also interesting is that a pair of Bruno's Mola Mola Kaluga Ncore Amplifiers was just posted for sale by GTT Audio & Video, on Audiogon. These appear to be either used (gently) or maybe demo/show models since they are rated in 10/10 condition. These amps have got to have one of the longest launch periods on record, which the designer claims was related to having the unique casework properly manufactured. Some of the better designers out there seem to struggle with production issues. Maybe now we will see some print reviews of those amps.

 

RE: I guess we'll need to wait, posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:09:11
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46301
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I don't know about that. Like I said, maybe it's just me an my personal preference not aligning with switchers.

 

You're not alone :) -nt, posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:11:13
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 .

 

They will be mandated in Europe eventually. , posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:21:11
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Save the planet, don't cha know.

When that happens I don't think U.S. manufacturers will be able to build gear solely for the U.S. market.

I've seen the future and it's not class AB.

My Rogue Atlas will outlive me, so I'm not worrying too much.

The real question is... what happens to tube manufacturers when no one is making new tube amps????






'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

that's interesting., posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:24:09
Albert B. Broman
Audiophile

Posts: 740
Location: Pac NW
Joined: July 10, 2000
 I remember when you commissioned the 10Y amps. Wasn't it for your Galants? I would have thought Jack G. would use a tube preamp instead of passive. May I ask what speakers are driven by the D-Sonics. I mean, ya know, 1200 wpc. At least one thing I think I would like with D-Sonics is, if I remember from a review, 5 watt standby. You leave them on, come home, and bamm; no warmup. you're going.
Peace, Brotherman.

 

Nice to read an even, well reasoned, and thoughtful reply on the topic...NT, posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:26:53
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 NT

 

Nice troll! NT, posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:30:27
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 NT

 

RE: There is no debating personal preferences..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:37:37
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Unfortunately, you weren't bringing up issues of "sound differences" but trying to show how your choice was "superior" by trying to prove some deficiency with class d amps with your link. Call it what you want. A troll is a troll....Enjoy your tube amp.

 

RE: that's interesting., posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:09:35
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Wow, that's going back. Your memory is good.
At least you know where I'm coming from.
I'm not using a whole lot of tubes these days.
I've got Ohm Walsh 5000s now. 89 dba at best, and thrive on power. The d-Sonics have 32 db gain, and enough power to drive anything, no preamp needed. The amps are sensitive to cables, vibration control etc. That dramatically improves things a bit.
Jack

 

Sad, but possibly true, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:19:23
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 I think the best bang for the buck option for tubes is DIY. There is still a ton of tubes out there. Most are TV tubes, but with a little thought, TV tubes can make excellent audio tubes. The Thomas Meyer 6AH4 is based on TV tubes, and a better preamp I don't think can be had for any reasonable amount.


I'm currently working on getting a pair of mono amps made using 6BL7 as the input/phase splitter, and 6883B output tubes. Should get between 90 to 100 watts a channel out of them. The tubes can be had for reasonable prices, and and are still available.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Enough, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:22:19
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 Your KGB traits are showing. :-)
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Link Added, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:24:50
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 Thanks, Mitch. Will check this out.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Interesting to note that Mr. Putzeys was originally into tube amps....NT, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:27:18
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 NT

 

This thread is intriguing., posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:28:56
olddude55
 Whenever I thought of Class D, the name "Crown" popped into my head and that was it.
I had no idea that quality Class D amps existed, and since I'm a Maggie guy and they love power, the wheels are turning.
How can I raise enough dough, what excuse can I run past Mrs. Olddude that will work?

 

Enough insults. Troll somewhere else. nt, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:29:57
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 nt

 

ok, good to know. NFM, posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:31:30
Albert B. Broman
Audiophile

Posts: 740
Location: Pac NW
Joined: July 10, 2000
 Brotherman

 

RE: This thread is intriguing., posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:32:35
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 The XLS series from Crown are cheap, powerful, and according to many on audiocircles.com, sounds good enough to be replacing Job amps and several others at many multiples of the price....Check them out...for $300 and liberal return privileges, you have little to lose...

 

RE: They will be mandated in Europe eventually. , posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:46:04
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 The real question is... what happens to tube manufacturers when no one is making new tube amps????


Tube DIYers will survive in the audiophile underground while eluding the EU and US based Greenies trying to save to planet.

I'm going to stock up on KT120 and some small signal tubes to get me through another 15 years or so. Beyond that, I'll probably be nearly deaf so good or bad, Class D might be in my future by then.

Have you been hoarding 100-watt incandescent light bulbs because there are none to be found on the shelves at Lowes or Home Depot. I have several dozen 100-watt bulbs but I'm not sure what for. I installed LED lighting throughout most of our house as LEDs have improved significantly in just the past couple years.

I'm hoping for the same accelerated improvement in Class D amps, but in the mean time I'll be well stocked with vacuum tubes. ;-)












 

The only one insulting and trolling is you, mate..., posted on January 2, 2015 at 13:46:43
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1330
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 God forbid we do not agree.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: thanks ozzy, posted on January 2, 2015 at 14:37:25
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 I leave mine on and go out for hours at a time. Never an issue.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

I was looking at D-Sonics' website earlier today., posted on January 2, 2015 at 14:49:23
olddude55
 Learned a lot, too, about Class D amps. For example, Bang & Olufsen's involvement. I'm a B&O fan.

I'll check out Crown over at the Planar Asylum later tonight.

 

RE: If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp.., posted on January 2, 2015 at 15:34:13
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I've never heard a Class D amp. My impression to listening to really good (and expensive) SS amps with transistor output stages (JFET, MOSFET, etc) is that these have lower distortion and are more linear than even the best PP tube amps I have heard. However, I mainly listen to SET amps which have high second-order distortion. While these amps may not measure well, i find them far more engaging than the SS amps I mentioned.

To each his own.

 

RE: that's interesting., posted on January 2, 2015 at 16:19:21
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Speaking of Ohms, I have Ohm 1000's in my small listening room ( 10' x 11' ). How these speakers continue to fly unnoticed under the radar baffles me a bit. I don't think I've ever owned a speaker voiced so well.....especially for my musical tastes. (jazz, blues and folk) Not to mention I've never had a speaker work nearly as well as the 1000 in this small room. Literally loads the room with an ambient presence that makes everything sound more real. Maybe even makes the room sound bigger. And no, this doesn't just occur after a third glass of wine.

 

RE: If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp.., posted on January 2, 2015 at 20:34:58
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 what you quoted is interesting and disturbing. It's unfortunate these amps a called class D which for many implies digital and they're not; they're analog. And I thought the analog coding done is into square waves of various lengths, not triangular waves which are I thought are only used to encode the square waves.

 

OMG well said. I love linear AB SS and tube but feel D isnt terrible and think mastering is the bigger issue, posted on January 3, 2015 at 00:10:08
2chJunkie
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 2, 2002






I just had a discussion with a fellow music lover today. He mentioned how he watched a show where they were talking about LPs making a comeback (rolls eyes) and how the black keys (who I love) are all about vinyl and recording quality. I know a bit about their history and feel its true for the most part.

I personally always have a giggle when I hear about how these younger music lovers (not just the hipsters ;) love vinyl and think it adds something to their listening experience. To be clear Im mostly referencing buying new vinyl of new music overall. Its just comical to me. IMO and experience its more a matter of the master source and mix down along the way. I personally prefer sources of a digital nature for the convenience and accessibility no matter what system I may be using. I ditched the analog source only long ago. Digital can sound fine IMO. Its all about how something was mastered and mixed. Same was true 70+ years ago when modern hifi emerged. Theres bad sounding vinyl too not just for its physical shape. I still like vinyl but really only search for music I dont own at the used shops because I wont likely find it elsewhere and its cheap.

Which brings me to my only real gripe with SOME high end D amps. And to be fair the same complaint is present in all high end. But when a 300+ watt class D amp goes for $3k+ I have to sigh. Many of us laugh at the mega buck gear out there but at least a massive linear AB amp has some meat to account for its cost. Not to say the companies building these products dont have R&D cost and whatever else but damn... Im a computer fellow by trade so know a small amount about the PCB and switching PS tech found in these units. Now on the positive side theres a plethora of great DIY and Chinese D amps out there for cheap which offer great bang for the buck and weight / size.

Which goes to their next point, their pluses. The idea that D amps have no place in mainstream or hifi is just nuts. Even as a tube and linear AB lover, Ive heard some great D amps out there. And when one factors in their size, weight and general availability its a no brainer they will be growing in popularity. They simply are no longer that bad overall. I personally dont want one but I know Im in the minority with the general public and a growing portion of music lovers out there. And Ive no reason to think they wont continue to get better. With so many major makers out there focusing on them. And pro audio makers using them and continuing their engineering and refinement efforts, why would it not go any other way??? Crown , QSC , Power soft , Lab Grup ... never mind the many audiophile ones in addition.

Again leads me to my next and last point. I personally feel these are great times for those wanting high power on the cheap in this hobby. Im just a working class shlep in this world. I like great band for the buck in my audio hobby. I somewhat recently made the switch from mainly tubes to high power vintage SS. Ive also come to the belief if you still like it loud at times and use direct radiators overall a high power 100+ to 300 watt amp is really nice and adds something. Im guessing vintage SS and pro audio with be the next thing for thrifty audio nerds to get into. Kinda the vintage tube gear of our time. Maybe who knows... I just look at what I grabbed when my good friend from HS came to visit. Drove from several states away and was kind enough to bring this old crest I found on high local Clist for $225. Pretty amazing power for the money. Built like a tank and sounds as good as anything in its power range. Yea it will need new caps on the driver and regulator board but who cares!?! Not that hard. Uses the same Sanken output transistors as many of the audiophile amps of its era too. You just have to be a nutcase like myself and others to want this 70 lb monster in your home VS its modern 8 lb class D counter part :-)

Sorry for the long rant. But found your response spot on and brings out the bigger issue. Lots of good new music out there thats being put out thats offensive to the ears of those that know. I look at the mumford and sons debut release that made mainstream success and is good music to boot. Terrible master job. What a shame. No wonder young and new folks to the hobby to see the need to bother.

Great amps out there of all kinds. Now we just need great sounding music to push through em!



 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 3, 2015 at 00:41:24
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 What on earth is a 5 watt amp good for unless you are listening to very efficient colored Horn speakers ? going back as far as the Voigt Corner Horn that started my Hi-Fi journey. When switching Class D amps equal the natural sound of Class AB amps I might buy one, but I doubt it. I find the JOB 225 Mos-Fet amp makes my speakers sound far more realistic than the Devialet D-Premier Class AD. plus the Job is great value unlike the Devialet especially if you only need a power amp.

 

RE: that's interesting., posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:29:43
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Aren't they nice?
Many years ago, I had the 4s. I gave them to my stepdaughter when I upgraded. Many years and speakers later, I realized that I missed what Ohms did. I finally gave in and bought a pair. Nobody does ambience and space like them.
Jack

 

RE: If you like your Class D amp, you can keep your Class D amp.., posted on January 3, 2015 at 06:10:28
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
 I do find the engineering design interesting and will dig deeper into that with time.
However, that what matters most to me is how they sound. What first put them on my radar was Srajan Ebaen's 6moons review, and what convinced me to buy a pair were two different in-home trials (separated by 8 months) where I compared them head-to-head against two different and very good sounding amps I owned at those times.

 

RE: OMG well said. I love linear AB SS and tube but feel D isnt terrible and think mastering is the bigger issue, posted on January 3, 2015 at 06:51:42
M-dB
Audiophile

Posts: 295
Location: Nor Cal
Joined: June 26, 2014
 Crest Audio seems to have been taken over by Peavey. Your 5001 schematics can be found here,
http://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/schematics.cfm

I resurrected an early Cerwin-Vega A-1800 with all new wire, caps, and resistors. It did sound better but not even close to a modern Rowland ore even my Ayre V-1x. I think there's a DNA thing in the design and technology.

To clarify my comments: I use my studio for analog recording to 1/2" or 1/4" tape. The Hypex DIY kit nCore 400s are simply driving the playback monitors. I do not do any post production or mastering.

I have had in house a number of class D amplifiers of varying design and modest cost. Like you I've become skeptical of the recent unexplained cost increase in higher powered audiophile class D amplification compared to ultra high powered Pro Audio class D offerings.

At my age I haven't been able to overcome the upper body tension that comes from listening to even the highest quality digital comfortable for any length of time. Even worse was the early advent of solid state amplification. As a working Musician the convenience and ruggedness of solid state made the work easier and much more reliable. While the shrill edginess of early solid state wasn't a big issue in public address it didn't mature for me until the mid eighties and even then not in my home stereo (now I'm getting into subjective personal taste).


I'm guessing what you're hearing as poor mastering is the result of the massive decline in the big label recording studio system. Its actually a combination of modern recording equipment and the techniques used by inexperienced recording engineering, far too many digital conversions, and the ultimate degradation that occurs in post production and quality in the manufacturing of the media. Digital recording on vinyl is still digital.

Unfortunately, to the younger technicians and listeners it all sounds normal because now, it is.

 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:17:15
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Several people on audiocircles.com have reported that they prefer the Crown XLS series of class d amps to their Job amps and have since sold their Job amps. These people claim to be lifelong audiophiles with decades in the hobby.

Just shows how preferences can differ as well as how amps can perform differently in different systems. Enjoy the Job!

 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:33:39
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 I am enjoying my JOB 225 - Thank you all Class D I have audtioned so far for me is not enjoyable. I do not understand how anybody can use a cheap PA amp for listening to Hi-Fi certainly not Classical music for rubbish rock & pop its no problem.

 

RE: that's interesting., posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:42:53
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 I rotate speakers thru my small listening room, but it doesn't take long before I'm missing what the Ohms do and they're back in place again. Never heard a speaker that could transform a small room like the Ohm. No surprise as he designs around room size. Mildly inefficient with a long break-in are the only drawbacks I've encountered. That said, no problem driving them with a 22 watt SET(845) in the above mentioned small room.

 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:51:28
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Well, I guess the moniker makes it clear....What you have is a preconception. All too common in this hobby. An open mind, curiosity, and the willingness to put preconceptions aside might expand your horizons and present heretofore unimagined options which could increase your enjoyment. Or you could just continue to live in a box, never knowing what might be out there, content in your own world...To each his own...

 

RE: I will keep it, here's how I do it, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:56:49
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 I note the JOB 225 sells on very quickly. I shall not be selling mine unless something better appears.

 

RE: OMG well said. I love linear AB SS and tube but feel D isnt terrible and think mastering is the bigger issue, posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:11:54
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Spot on M-db .......

 

Yeah Id agree over all. I dont hate all digital. Just look to Telarc, it can be done right. , posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:13:15
2chJunkie
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 2, 2002






On the notion of the power amp. Yes Im aware of the Peavey take over from years ago. This is an example of the Pre-Peavey era. Thanks for the link BTW, I knew of it and have it but it was kind of you. And a fine example IMO. These power amps have no compression as protection. Also they are from the "almost" cost no object in their design. Real massive and rugged. And they do have protection circuits throughout. One thing youll notice is the modular design of it too. Real handy for doing work. Also the handful of op-amps are in sockets. So improving the sound if one feels needed isnt as great a chore. IMO as long as a power amp was well engineered in its day it can still sound pretty darn good today. And this one is from the mid 80s abouts and SS was getting the bulk of the early limitations worked out. The specs of these early crests dont lie, they really were well engineered. Are they the last word in SS amps. Of course not. It wouldnt surprise me in the least that an Ayre or Cello or Boulder sound better. They damn well better for $3-10K+++ more!!!
Will I hear or care about it for me. Nope...

On the notion of recorded music and digital. I personally have no beef with digital. Heck how can one avoid other folks in our camp listening to old vinyl on a tube system. This is another science thats come a long way IMO. I personally think it can sound amazing. I really love the sound of my MHDT Havana DAC. Great value IMO. Also look no further than old 80s Telarc recordings as proof it could sound ok in its early days. Those recordings were AMAZING sound wise. But they took great care in their recording process and it showed. Heck they even list the recording and mastering monitor audio setup. Gear many folks to this day use. Digital can, with the right gear sound fine IMO. Can it sound bad, of course. But its no a given either way. Im fine with it and prefer it for its ease of use and convenience. I really got a kick when I first began ripping my massive CD collection. I found myself listening to MORE music than ever before and stuff Id forgotten about or prob wouldnt have got out as it wasnt worth the work before. IMO it can broaden ones horizons in many ways as a result of stuff like this.

And what I hear with most recordings. I dont know if you know of or like mumford and sons. But if you do and have their CD I speak of, just listen to the opening track. It starts out with just an acoustic guitar and them singing in harmony. It already starts to sound overly forward. Then as it crescendos, OMG it gets louder and louder and in your face. Then when it goes full bore into all instruments its an all out assault on the ears. Its the loudness war at its worst. And never mind how good it was micd or mixed. When things are that loud and over-driven all the delicacies are irrelevant. Its not subtle enough and balanced to tell. What a shame. Such a wonderful album that could have been. And this is just one of an endless sea of modern recordings that were butchered like it. The anti Christ of Telarc. Thats what Im talking about... :(

But yes I agree. Lots of good and bad and examples or amps , recordings , and mixes out there. Oh and cool to see your still using tape recording in the studio. Sure sounds great. Have you messed with computer recording at all? Im guessing yes. :)

 

Forgot to ask. You got a Fairchild 670 leading into that tape deck ;-) NT, posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:26:07
2chJunkie
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 2, 2002
 One can dream right

 

RE: that's interesting., posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:41:51
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Yea, they can be driven with less, but the d-Sonics really put a solid grip on them. HUGE dynamics. They aren't hyper detailed as other speakers, but they do space and are soundstage champs.
Jack

 

RE: I was looking at D-Sonics' website earlier today., posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:45:24
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 B&O designed ICE modules, I don't think they had much to do with the others.
Jack

 

RE: Forgot to ask. You got a Fairchild 670 leading into that tape deck ;-) NT, posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:50:55
M-dB
Audiophile

Posts: 295
Location: Nor Cal
Joined: June 26, 2014
 Neve 5432

 

RE: I was looking at D-Sonics' website earlier today., posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:40:59
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 The icepower modules were designed at B&O by Patrik Bostrom. He left as I understand it and is behind the Anaview designs with are used by D-Sonic, Marten ($45K), and likely others.

 

RE: They will be mandated in Europe eventually. , posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:50:37
kenzo
Audiophile

Posts: 955
Location: San Francisco
Joined: September 27, 2003
 I have been hoarding EL509s for the last decade- since I bought my Transcendent OTL.

Probably have two dozen+ "NOS" tubes in storage and the amp only uses 8. Since the amp still has the original power tubes (had to change out one supply tube but those are very common) I hope to be good for another decade at least.

After that- if i am still around which is questionable- I am hoping that my Musical Fidelity A1 2008 Class A in storage will suffice.

kenzo

 

OK, gotta ask..., posted on January 3, 2015 at 10:44:30
DAVID
Audiophile

Posts: 763
Joined: September 26, 1999
 ...how do the W4S mAmps compare to both the D-Sonics and the older W4S STI-500? I own the mAmps and really like them and am curious. Thanks.

 

RE: It is indeed a " a personal preference issue"..., posted on January 3, 2015 at 11:46:30
RD
Audiophile

Posts: 83
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 4, 2001
 I do not believe that the Rogue or any other OEM uses the Hypex NC400 module. The NC400 is sold only to the DIY market. The NC1200 is reserved for the OEMs.
RD

 

I stand corrected. It uses the UCD-400 modules....., posted on January 3, 2015 at 13:03:49
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46301
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
What is the difference between NC400 vs UCD400 modules?


 

RE: They will be mandated in Europe eventually. , posted on January 3, 2015 at 13:20:58
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Depends on how many hrs yearly , power toobs will rarely go 2 yrs without diminished sonics, sonics will start to deteriorate way before toob is classified defective. Easy to confirm after switching in new ...


I used to change mine every 1-1.5 yrs to maintain sonics , but thats when toobs could stull be bought at the shack or at lafayette ... :)

 

RE: OK, gotta ask..., posted on January 3, 2015 at 13:25:41
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 To be honest, I didn't care for the mAmps. They were too soft and warm for my taste. They also completely lacked the ability to drive my Ohms. The STI was leaner,too lean for some, with better drive and better treble and detail. The D-Sonics have treble as good or better than the STI, but have better bass and a little more warmth in the mids/upper bass without being soft. They also have a HUGE soundstage and better dynamics.
Jack
PS. The mAmps were better without the matching mPre.

 

RE: They will be mandated in Europe eventually. , posted on January 3, 2015 at 14:33:04
kenzo
Audiophile

Posts: 955
Location: San Francisco
Joined: September 27, 2003
 in the summer, not much use. in the winters, avg. probably 20 hrs/week.

The engineer who designed the amp - Bruce Rozenblit - always asserted the T8 was overdesigned and the voltage to the tubes is relatively low allowing longer tube life.

When I compare the T8s sound today at 10 yrs old- against a Quad 909, Musical Fidelity A1 2008, Qinpu A6000 MkII, I can hear differences between all of them of course (speakers are DeCapo I, Cambridge Audio S30, Pioneer SP-BS22-LR Andrew Jones). The T8 consistently wins the "holy hell, it sounds like they are in the damn room!" test using with the DeCapos and S30s - even my tin eared wife notices the difference. But it does sound a little laid back with the pioneers (they sound best with the Quad...)

kenzo

 

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