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Why solid state sounding tubes?

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Posted on September 10, 2014 at 09:45:13
DAVID
Audiophile

Posts: 763
Joined: September 26, 1999
 Some descriptions of ARC preamps in another thread brought to mind, once again, why would someone want an expensive tube preamp that is very neutral when they can get a really good sounding neutral solid state pre for, possibly, less cost and maintenance? The solid state might even have better bass and detail. Not knocking ARC sound...I had an LS7 many moons ago, just wondering.

 

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RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 09:56:34
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 The ARC products may have tubes in them, but semiconductors do most of the work and have for decades. I would think that you would buy their products because you like the sound presentation, not because they have tubes in them.

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 10:32:29
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 David
You bring up very valid points and for years,that has been a problem with ARC products.They followed the philosophy of getting the signal to noise ratio at its lowest especially in the phono stage,so that required the use of semiconductors in the signal path.There isn't a problem doing this,unless you go overboard with it as they did.I believe in using solid-state regulation in the power supply of a preamp because when the regulator is a gain type NPN transistor,it also multiplies the capacitance at the output and you measure pretty much a flat DC line on the scope at the lowest scale.
ARC does have the classic series now and that has gone back to more old school type circuitry.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 10:32:48
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005
It seems tube amp designers are trying to get a balance between tube sound and SS sound......

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 11:03:25
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 SS will certainly have better detail and control on electric guitar/bass recordings.

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes? For that matter.., posted on September 10, 2014 at 13:20:02
Mechans
Audiophile

Posts: 1804
Location: East Coast
Joined: May 23, 2004
 Why have SS amps that brag they sound like tube amps, but at best, can only be an imitation, by definition. I know one counter argument is that tubes require work to maintain and so on, but those complaints are greatly exaggerated in my experience.

 

I agree, posted on September 10, 2014 at 15:07:31
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37672
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I certainly don't want "solid state sounding" tubes either. Especially if it uses switching devices!

On the other hand, I do enjoy tube equipment that exhibits a host of other sonic advantages along with possessing a neutral character - which many tube components do not. I'm not a fan of the caramel color of "traditional" tube gear.

My 40+ years of experience, however, tells me there is far more to the difference between the sonics of tubes and solid state gear than merely tonal balance. Tubes with their simple circuits and little/no feedback and simple distortion spectra deliver a level of focus, dimensionality, and harmonic "rightness" that solid state typically does not.

I would agree, however, that as solid state gets better, the sound quality of best tube and SS gear converges.

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 17:04:14
DeeCee
Audiophile

Posts: 769
Joined: July 6, 2001
 Interesting question... I found that in top notch gear I listened to, whether it was solid state or tube, the differences in sound quality overall seemed to have more in common than not.

I found this to be a telling phenomenon (at least to my ears).

Maybe what I really mean is that the musical presentation of my favorite solid state and tube gear had more in common than not and that there were minor differences of liking "this" particular quality better than "that" quality on one piece of gear over the other, although both pieces may be exceptional (heck, they both may sound like crap to others ears... YMMV)

Oh well, at least I'm consistent...

Happy Listening!
DeeCee

 

What is this 'classic series' you speak of?, posted on September 10, 2014 at 22:31:07
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 "ARC does have the classic series now and that has gone back to more old school type circuitry."

I'm not familiar with this. Which series is this?

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes? For that matter.., posted on September 10, 2014 at 23:55:53
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Never having owned any tube equipment, I understand that tubes in preamps last a LONG time while power amp output tubes are more consumed more quickly, and expensively!
Too much is never enough

 

Never understood why this happens - but here's my two cents, posted on September 11, 2014 at 06:20:24
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 companies, and myself include in the early days, unintentionally and slowly blend out the desirable good qualities of tube amplification. Not with evil intent, but generally trying to "pimp out" there amps a little too much. In the process we loose the magic of what we started with. Been there - unfortunately.

Solid state has come a LONG way and can produce equally nice pleasing music. And has for years been bashed and called the B team of audio. The only problem with solid state, and I'm referring to the more modern stuff, is it's a bitch to properly match. But once you get it right it too is magic.

That's why I have both and enjoy them both. Ok, I'm a little partial to my tube stereo.

charles

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes? For that matter.., posted on September 11, 2014 at 06:23:01
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Ahhhhh, my output tubes are like 50 years old. So I guess that argument leads to poor designs in newer tube amps.

 

RE: Why solid state sounding tubes?, posted on September 11, 2014 at 08:19:00
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2529
Joined: March 8, 2002
 I find that when you bi-amp, the differences are not as noticeable. In my opinion, the best is to use SS for the bass (500Hz or lower), and tubes for the mids and highs. You get the great damping factor of SS for the bass, and the warmth of tubes for the mids.

 

If we are talking about preamps the tube reliability should be very good., posted on September 11, 2014 at 09:00:29
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4778
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Tubes hold up much better in preamps than they do amplifiers.

I don't find solid state preamps to have more detail though. IME they have less, although they are brighter. I think the brightness fools some people into thinking they are hearing more detail. But the brightness is actually a coloration caused by very low level higher-ordered harmonic distortion. It just happens that the human ear/brain system is very sensitive to such distortion as it uses the higher orders as loudness/volume cues.

To give you an idea of how sensitive our ears are to higher ordered harmonics, they are so sensitive that the distortion in question is very difficult to measure! This is one area where our ears are more sensitive than our test equipment, and it has been vexing to many, as the on-going debates about tubes/transistors and objectivist/subjectivist have shown.

 

Because..., posted on September 11, 2014 at 12:33:26
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
 You can't roll BJTs or FETs.....realistically.
Tube rolling is a convention.

Every ARC schematic I've seen has transistors hanging off the tube...go figure.

 

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