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KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!

71.185.77.163
Posted on July 12, 2014 at 08:10:51
thebordas
 The NEW KRELL VANGAURD INTEGRATED AMP starts shipping next week!!! I ordered one already from my dealer...super excited about the new iBias platform which delivers Class A power up to full output, that is 200w/8ohms and 400w/4ohms! My comparison for review purposes will be the venerable Krell 400xi, which to my ears was one of the most musical integrateds ever made....may even have an HK990 on hand for a quick review as well. I will be using my Krell SACD STD MKIII as a source (my favorite player of all time), and my speakers will be B&W 803D's. Cables are MIT HD36 IC's and HD60 biwire speaker cables. I use an MIT Magnum AC2 for my amps and a Transparent Reference PC for my SACD player. HiFi tuning fuses are used as well where appropriate. High Hopes Indeed....the original 400xi and now the Vangaurd stand to be the all time best buys in High End Audio, considering the lack of options under 5K for a well built, musical integrated amp. Heard a Hegel 300 and couldn't wait to run out of the room! How many amps double down on power anymore? Good luck finding one and if you do, a musical one and for less than a used car. Couple weeks till I get my hands on the Vangaurd....the anticipation is killing me:)

 

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yet More "Forbidden Planet' gear., posted on July 12, 2014 at 08:29:45
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Imo these guys have looong ago lost their way, in everything except pricings.
Once powerhouses for clean solid sounds.. no longer imo
If one must have audio(?) gear that has more 'functions' than an Android device... dig deep :-)

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 08:36:09
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing.
How will it differ from the 550i ?

 

RE: yet More "Forbidden Planet' gear., posted on July 12, 2014 at 08:55:57
thebordas
 What do you use, Oh Great One? I have actually owned a crapload of various amps over the last 30years from most of the major companies. Overall, I found myself back to Krell more often than not....because they allow more of the music through in a realistic and convincing manner. As I said, who else makes an amp that delivers what Krell does for a better price? High End pricing is what it is, but within that paradigm, something like the new Vangaurd from Krell is a freakin steal!!

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 09:05:47
thebordas
 Full Class A output with new iBias, illusion preamp design and made in USA! The website will be updated soon. I've owned stuff from every series of Krell since the mid 90's and nothing is more revolutionary than Krell's new Class A iBias technology...along with their other superior circuit designs. The proof is in the listening...not in made up opinions based on someones idea of what they think Krell equipment sounds like. I hate posers.






Following the Munich Hi Fi Show unveiling, we are excited to announce that worldwide shipments of the new Vanguard integrated amplifier begin next week. Following the rest of the line, the Vanguard will be manufactured at Krell in the USA. Initially, the analog-only Vanguard will be available. The optional digital module will ship in September and is field installable. Below are Vanguard highlights and the website will be updated shortly with complete specifications.






Vanguard Highlights





The Vanguard incorporates a 200-watt-per channel amplifier and Class A preamplifier, enclosed in a chassis that borrows its design and construction from the new Krell Foundation preamp/processor, Connect stream player, Illusion preamp and iBias amplifiers. An optional, field-installable digital module with USB, HDMI, coaxial, and optical inputs as well as Ethernet audio and apt-X Bluetooth streaming will also be available.



The Vanguard's amplifier incorporates a massive power supply with a 750 VA toroidal transformer and 80,000 microfarads of storage capacitance. The tremendous amount of energy on tap provides 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 400 watts into 4 ohms. Two quiet, thermostatically controlled fans permit the use of a surprisingly compact chassis.



The preamplifier section of the Vanguard borrows its balanced, fully discrete Class A circuit concepts from Krell's top-of-the-line Illusion preamplifiers. Krell's Current Mode technology is employed to assure unequaled signal bandwidth, easily enough to handle the latest high-resolution PCM and DSD audio sources without impacting high-frequency response and detail.


Packed with many of Krell's most musical-sounding technologies, the elegant chassis is living-room-friendly. Yet it has enough power to achieve incredible, lifelike dynamics with any speaker.



The front-panel menu system provides configuration features such as input naming and input trim. Theater Throughput mode lets the Vanguard serve as the core of a surround-sound system without sacrificing two-channel sound quality. Analog Inputs include three stereo RCA and one stereo balanced XLR. High-quality WBT speaker cable terminals provide a secure, electrically ideal connection.



The Vanguard also offers features that make it perfect for custom installation, such as 3.5mm jacks for IR input and 12-volt trigger input and output, as well as optional rack-mount ears. Additionally, the unit can be controlled with home automation systems through its Ethernet connection.



An option for the Vanguard is the digital module, which can be added at the factory or by a dealer. The digital module includes USB, HDMI inputs and output, coaxial and optical digital inputs; Ethernet music streaming controlled through dedicated iOS and Android apps; and apt-X Bluetooth wireless for convenient streaming from phones, tablets and computers.


















Please contact the sales department at sales@krellonline.com or 203-799-9954 with any questions.










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Krell Industries | krellannouncements@krellonline.com | http://www.krellonline.com
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RE: yet More "Forbidden Planet' gear., posted on July 12, 2014 at 11:05:52
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46296
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
I've owned only three Krell pieces over the years.

I loved the small KSA-50s amp. It was heavenly. The KAV-2250 amp was a powerhouse of dry sterile and grainy crap. The KAV-280p linestage was a bass monster but that's about it. My problem with Krell is inconsistency within their product line and over the years. It's a hit or miss proposition.

There's always a boat load of recent vintage Krell integrated amps for sale on Audiogon which makes me wonder if they're any good.

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 11:40:53
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thank You! dave b.

I think that I am most excited about this product being made/produced in the U.S.A.

 

Depends..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 13:31:15
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8446
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007

The Evolution Series were above everything else that Krell ever put out. But, that just me...


 

Are you sure..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 14:11:25
TGT
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Location: Kentucky
Joined: December 6, 2002
 Isn’t just the pre amp section Class A? Are you sure it incorporates the iBias feature for the amp?

 

RE: Are you sure..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 15:08:34
thebordas
 Absolutely, you can read about it on their website and I personally talked with Bill McKiegan (CEO)for about an hour regarding the iBias scheme for monitoring the power demands at the amplifier outputs to keep it in full Class A up to maximum power rating! I ordered a Vangaurd today and will evaluate it against the 400xi and another budget minded component, the HK990.

 

RE: Depends..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 16:15:43
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Kootenay-

very fine pic! That is one sweet rack.

 

Reads like ad copy......, posted on July 12, 2014 at 17:13:35
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7594
Joined: September 21, 1999
 really?

Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 18:20:44
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 The details of how ibias works may be new but variable bias to maintain class a with variable bias that tracks output is not a new concept.. Nelson Pass designed amps this way decades ago. And Krell it self made amps that used discrete stepped bias points to maintain class A.

 

RE: Depends..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 19:33:46
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46296
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 You're probably right. I haven't tried anything recent from Krell. I just know that the KAV line wasn't great, and maybe that's how it was supposed to be. Wasn't the KAV line geared more toward home theater?


 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 19:56:18
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 Won't that amp run really, really hot if it's class A up to full output?

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 12, 2014 at 20:38:08
middleground
 My guess is it's water cooled... for that liquid sound.

 

RE: Are you sure..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 20:40:13
middleground
 Is that really "Vangaurd"?

 

RE: yet More "Forbidden Planet' gear., posted on July 12, 2014 at 20:41:52
middleground
 We understand you like it.

 

Yes..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 21:46:19
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8446
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
 So are the new Foundation and as well as the Chorus models.

 

Well, wait a minute. I think you and Abe are discussing apples and oranges, posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:37:31
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 The Foundation is an AMAZING analogue line stage preamplifier. So, while it is a HT digital processor as well, and a wonderful sounding one at that, Krell makes it for those of us who want a real two-in-one dedicated system that does not compromise on 2 channel analog sources.

Also, though I have not heard any of the iBias amps yet because they are only trickling them out now. the Chorus 5200 and 7200 are in the same line and based on the same circuits and components as the Solos and the Duos, they just have more channels and put out less power. In other words, Krell is finally putting out top of the line multichannel amps. Their more affordable pricing is pretty much across the board now and not limited to the multichannel pieces, which I see as a positive. More money gets you more power for sure.

I don't think that's what Abe meant. Back in the day, Krell came out with the KAV series as a cheaper alternative to their high end gear. And while some of it was oriented to HT, not all of it was. In fact, Abe himself describes 2 channel only pieces, and I owned the KAV 300i integrated, which for some bizarre reason garnered great professional reviews, and sound as Abe describes his KAV pieces. Not musical at all.

The new stuff is all part of the same series basically, and the Foundation is a God-send to someone like me who had gotten tired of using a theater loop in a preamp or integrated to avoid having to use the processor as the preamp.

I'll be posting a formal review of the Foundation in the coming weeks.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: Are you sure..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:41:59
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 It seems unlikely...

 

Dead wrong IMO, posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:48:38
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 While the jury might still out on Krell's post-Dan longevity, I think they are doing everything right as a small, high-end focused company.

I have been home auditioning the Foundation in my system for a week now and I am going to buy it. It's first and foremost a great analog preamplifier, DAC and multichannel processor. In order to keep the price within reach, Krell has left out video processing, wireless streaming capabilities, and any streaming apps, none of which are necessary in a processor these days given that you automatically get them on BD players, TVs and Apple TV type streamers.

The sound could not be clearer and cleaner, and yet it has a more involving and musical sound than even the high end Krell preamps I heard in the past.

And, thankfully, they have gone back to making all of their products in Connecticut (at least once they formally drop the s300 and s550 integrated amps).

I say this may be Krell's finest hour when it comes to high end audio.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

You know . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:52:24
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 I hear you to a certain extent, and if this was his first post, then I'd certainly agree with you, but look up the guy's profile. He's been registered for years and has posted hundreds of times. So, I say he's psyched about a new toy and sharing his excitement, and it's harsh to come down on a guy for doing that.

I for one look forward to hearing how it sounds once he has it hooked up and has let it settle into his system.

But then I'm enjoying my new Foundation a lot, so perhaps I'm biased.

___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

Thanks Dave. I'd not even heard of the Vanguard, and . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:58:47
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 I have been on the Krell website and Facebook page quite a bit recently since I'm buying a Foundation.

How, and why, did they keep this so under the radar?
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

Addendum, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:07:59
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 While the KAV300i was not my cup of tea, it was replaced by the 300iL and then 400ixL.

I never heard the latter, but the 300iL was a huge improvement over the 300i. Much more musical and involving, but with even more power. So, some of the later KAV stuff was quite nice for its price.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: Thanks Dave. I'd not even heard of the Vanguard, and . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:25:14
thebordas
 I just found out about it last week and was told it would not be available until September, so I got a used 400xi to hold me over! Now they e-mailed me and said they are shipping next week!! Ugh...at least I will be able to A/B them:) Also, the Class A thing can be confusing, but since the iBias scheme allows the output devices to be fully on under any given power demand, in effect it is running Class A, without the wasted energy.

 

RE: Reads like ad copy......, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:31:17
thebordas
 Yes, the details were from the E-mail I received from Krell!

 

RE: Are you sure..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:46:31
thebordas
 Vanguard:)

 

Josh... I agree with you..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:59:17
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8446
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
 The new Krell HT system sound quality has increased by leaps and bounds from its older models. As the matter of fact I was just at my dealer last week auditioning their new fully automated HT set-up, which comprises of LED projection system with Stewart screen, Krell Foundation and the Chorus 7200 multi channel amp driving the Martin Logan's top of the line speakers.

What else can I say, it sounded almost real while listening to the Eagles and Led Zeppelin bluray concerts as it was very dynamic with a hint of warmth on the overall sound signature.


 

it's cool that Krell still lives on without Dan..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 14:04:45
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 I started out with Krell amplifiers and sold off most of them but still my kps 25s is in use. To my surprise they still support their legacy products which is cool.

Do you know who's the chief designer for the current Krell?

 

RE: it's cool that Krell still lives on without Dan..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 15:07:33
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2956
Joined: February 20, 2011
 I can't believe I read 29 posts about this and the most Important question was never asked. Where is this amp made? If it is made in China this whole thread is a joke.

 

According to their Email ..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 15:52:35
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 the new Vanguard amp will be made in the USA.

I am sure that its MSRP will reflect that.

Obviously you missed one of the posts.

Following the Munich Hi Fi Show unveiling, we are excited to announce that worldwide shipments of the new Vanguard integrated amplifier begin next week. Following the rest of the line, the Vanguard will be manufactured at Krell in the USA.

 

RE: Are you sure..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 17:50:31
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Why would it need a fancy bias control to maintain Class A in the pre-amp stage???


 

RE: According to their Email ..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 19:03:51
thebordas
 $3500

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 13, 2014 at 19:07:16
thebordas
 Not with iBias adjusting output relative to actual demand...the fans will come on when pushing it though!

 

Awesome to hear!, posted on July 13, 2014 at 19:48:29
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 Actually, I assumed you and I were on the same page, but didn't want others to think you and Abe were comparing the new Krell stuff to their old KAV stuff.

Glad to hear that the Chorus sounds so nice. I have a fantastic local authorized dealer and integrator, so I'll definitely get a chance to home audition once he has a unit for demo.

The thing is, the Foundation is sounding so good with my Conrad Johnson MF2250 doing R and L mains and an old Rotel doing center and surrounds that I don't feel in any rush right now to upgrade the power amps. Though the matching Chorus would certainly look pretty in my audio rack. :-) I'd likely get the 5200 since I have a 5.1 only system and if I were to go up to 7.1, I'd just use the CJ for the rears or surrounds.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

Yes, it's quite amazing . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 19:52:11
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 The iBias amps are designed so you can stack the preamplifier or processor directly on top of them! Imagine doing that with the older Krell amps. And the fans are set up to only come on at high musical peaks and, in any event, I read from an owner that the amps run cool to the touch even when active for awhile.

So, assuming they sound as good as people are saying, and prove reliable, I think they should sell very well.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

Reading comprehension? C-O-N-N-E-C-T-I-C-U-T . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 19:55:31
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 Had you actually read all 29 posts you would have seen in more than one that all of the new Krell gear is made in Connecticut. I mentioned it and so did the OP.

But then you are Sudz, so you likely are trying to derail this thread anyway.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: Reading comprehension? C-O-N-N-E-C-T-I-C-U-T . . ., posted on July 13, 2014 at 21:10:02
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2956
Joined: February 20, 2011
 It's a known fact that Krell has been making Intergrated amps and CD players in China the past couple of years. Dan was Krell for many years. If you are really a Krell fan you will buy Dan's gear. Why buy Imitation when you can buy the real thing.

 

Wow, I'm really surprised..., posted on July 13, 2014 at 23:37:24
DAVID
Audiophile

Posts: 763
Joined: September 26, 1999
 ...at the very low output current of Krells new amps! Geez, my old McCormack amp pumped out 50 amps and my new Wyred mAmps do 30. That's about twice what these new Krells do. Oh well, look forward, none the less, to your review.

 

Only the preamp section is Class A...sorry, posted on July 14, 2014 at 02:51:07
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
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 It might sound good but 200 watts/channel Class A it is not.

The website makes it clear that it is the preamp that is Class A and if you look at the specs it is not possible that this amp can do 200 watts Class A.

 

RE: Only the preamp section is Class A...sorry, posted on July 14, 2014 at 04:35:23
thebordas
 I know it's confusing and your right, it is obviously not a classic Class A design. What it does is keep the outputs on and responsive to output demands, but not full on all the time...a backend version of their Plateau Bias design, which guessed at the theoretical load the amp was seeing. The new iBias reacts in real time to a real load and keeps the output devices ready to put out instantaneously. In other words, virtual class A or Class A on demand if you will.

 

RE: Only the preamp section is Class A...sorry, posted on July 14, 2014 at 05:20:15
thebordas
 OK, maybe this is a better way to understand the iBias design....think of it in terms of an engine that delivers massive power and torque on demand but does so by seamlessly using 4cylinders, then 6cylinders and then 8cylinders without the driver knowing how he got to 60mph in 3.6seconds. The new amps monitor the demand in real time and deliver what is needed on demand as if they were full on all the time, without the wasted energy!

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 14, 2014 at 06:31:21
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "variable bias to maintain class a with variable bias that tracks output is not a new concept."

Not at all.

The first instances I recall were some "Technics" seperates and receivers from Panasonic many decades ago. And, IMHO they really sounded great. I think they used a feed-foreword scheme for the outer bugs and feedback on the inner, fast ones. The Carver cube was another item along the same line but I didn't think it sounded very good. It's both what you do and how you do it...

Rick

 

RE: Only the preamp section is Class A...sorry, posted on July 14, 2014 at 06:53:32
thebordas
 From HiFi Enthusiast/UK:


The Krell Vanguard ($3500 dollar suggested retail price), one of the most advanced yet affordable products in Krell’s history. The Krell Vanguard incorporates a 200-watt-per channel amplifier and a Class A preamp enclosed in a chassis that borrows its design and construction from the new Krell Foundation preamp/processor, connect stream player, illusion preamp and iBias amplifiers.

 

care to explain..., posted on July 14, 2014 at 08:27:26
wangmr
Audiophile

Posts: 2410
Location: Downtown
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 the expression 'forbidden planet'? is it an idiom? does it mean anything sidelined or pushed aside?

thanks for interest.

roger wang.

 

Taht's what they said about Sustained Plateau Biasing..., posted on July 14, 2014 at 08:40:47
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 on their FPB amps.

They must have figured out a cheaper way of doing the same.

Who's the chief engineer at Krell these days do you know?

 

RE: Taht's what they said about Sustained Plateau Biasing..., posted on July 14, 2014 at 08:46:15
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Hopefully Krell will bring back all designing/building to the U.S.A.!

 

Better yet, read Krell's description, posted on July 14, 2014 at 10:14:01
E-Stat
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Posts: 37655
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Which places the adjective in the same place.

Vanguard

"The Vanguard incorporates a 200-watt-per channel amplifier and a Class A preamplifier..."

There is no claim anywhere on that page that the amplifier runs Class A.

 

RE: Better yet, read Krell's description, posted on July 14, 2014 at 10:20:49
thebordas
 Yes, but it uses iBias which is virtual Class A because it reads the load in real time and has ouputs ready to respond instantaneously like an 8, 6, 4 cylinder engine design...less wasted energy but same performance! Proof will be in the pudding however:)

 

Sliding bias amps have been available since 1975, posted on July 14, 2014 at 10:30:05
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 when Nelson Pass introduced that concept with the Threshold 800A.

"iBias" is a marketing term.

 

Todd Eichenbaum...., posted on July 14, 2014 at 10:32:13
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8446
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
 is the Director of Engineering and New Product Development according to Krell report.


 

Along with pretty much every other preamp ever made by anybody., posted on July 14, 2014 at 10:40:32
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
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 If there are preamps which do not operate in Class A I've never come across one.

 

Thanks..., posted on July 14, 2014 at 20:01:08
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 I have not listened to any post Dan products, but did they retain Krell's house sound?

 

RE: Better yet, read Krell's description, posted on July 15, 2014 at 03:30:00
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Given the size of the power supply and obvious lack of heat sinks it is clearly not able to supply more than 20-30 watts Class A power. Nevermind 200 watts Class A it won't get close to that.

I once had a Sumo "The Nine" that was 60 watts Class A and used fan cooling to supplement its decent sized heat sinks. It had a 1200 VA transformer for only 60 watts.

Now I have a NAT Symbiosis, which has a power transformer that is probably heavier than the whole Vanguard. It is 100 watts Class A has 4 massive heat sinks, gets super hot and weighs about 140 lbs.

That is what it takes to make Class A...even older Krell sliding bias amps were huge.

I am of course not commenting on the sound...just the claim you made of it being Class A.

 

RE: Better yet, read Krell's description, posted on July 15, 2014 at 03:48:03
thebordas
 Good points....you know what, I am becoming a bit skeptical myself, but will reserve judgment on the sound. Sounds like a good idea but maybe they are overplaying the Class A iBias thing a bit much!

 

Yes, it's ultimately all about the sound. Avoid audio nervosa!, posted on July 15, 2014 at 06:54:03
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 The responsive posts to your OP are helpful to understand the limitations of the purported technology from people who purport to be knowledgable and experienced, but not if they are dampening your enthusiasm for what appears to be a great product for a remarkably low price.

Also, for what it's worth, Krell has filed patent applications on the iBias technology. While that does not necessarily mean much, at least until the applications are approved, it does mean that at least Krell believes there is something novel and non-obvious about their implementation.

I'm eager to hear how it sounds when you get it!
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

Interesting. I'm surprised a bit too. But . . ., posted on July 15, 2014 at 06:57:41
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 The Evolution series amps put out gobs of current compared to the newer amps.

Nevertheless, I am very eager to hear one of the new amps in my system with the Foundation. And, I assume Stereophile will review one of the power amps relatively soon and JA will publish measurements, which will be interesting to see.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: Interesting. I'm surprised a bit too. But . . ., posted on July 15, 2014 at 11:57:11
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Taken from the Krell site ...

" The Vanguard’s amplifier incorporates a massive power supply with a 750 VA toroidal transformer and 80,000 microfarads of storage capacitance "

the s-550i " a massive 1,750 watt transformer and 68,000μF of capacitance "

the s-300i instead " Employing a massive 750 VA toroidal transformer and 38,000 microfarads of capacitance "

It seems that the Vanguard has a power supply similar to the s-300i
For what counts of course.
The s-550i is more than double the VA but also much more expensive i suppose.
Kind regards,
bg

 

Forbidden Planet makes excellent subwoofer amps... otherwise dry, grey,un-involving~nT, posted on July 15, 2014 at 19:12:53
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Dan took the name 'Krell' {name of the people} from the movie Forbidden Planet. ~nT, posted on July 15, 2014 at 19:14:46
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

The best Krell amp I ever heard in my system....., posted on July 15, 2014 at 20:44:08
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4590
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 was the KSA 200. after the KSA series Krell wasn't the same. I tried one of there FPB series amp and it was not really that good compared to the KSA series in my system. It seemed like Krell had lost their way. Then I tried a EDGE M8 (Black) original series and it was way better and I still have it in my main system.

I would be very interested to hear the new Krell amps. Hopefully they have found that magic again! their prices are way beyond what I can afford now.

One thing to consider when purchasing a Krell amp and I know a friend that has 2 KSA series and one needs to be checked out. They are expensive to have recapped and shipped back and forth to Krell if you live on the west coast. His were just repaired less than 10 years ago and needs it again. So it just something to know when you buy Krell Class A amps.

 

RE: Awesome to hear!, posted on July 16, 2014 at 15:25:54
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46296
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Thanks for clearing things up. Yes, my bad Krell experience revolves around the older 2-ch KAV products. I haven't heard anything more recent from Krell.



 

RE: The best Krell amp I ever heard in my system....., posted on July 16, 2014 at 17:47:17
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing.

 

If the output devices are operating in class A mode, it's class A, posted on July 17, 2014 at 05:05:42
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9872
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 Like E-Stat said, sliding bias systems have be around for a long time. They purport to adjust the bias up or down instantaneously according to the power demand. They don't have to continuously bias for maximum rated power and accordingly power supplies can be more modest than full-time, maximum bias devices.

I don'd have a personal opinion about how well this approach works in practice.


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

RE: thanks .... sometimes i feel the whole english language would collapse..., posted on July 17, 2014 at 11:10:36
wangmr
Audiophile

Posts: 2410
Location: Downtown
Joined: November 29, 2012
 if it weren't for popular culture references.

roger wang.

 

RE: If the output devices are operating in class A mode, it's class A, posted on July 17, 2014 at 13:06:40
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 It won't be biased more than a few watts Class A at most and never to deliver 200 watts Class A...everything is too small; power supply, heat sinks etc.

 

True that they call only the preamp class A, posted on July 17, 2014 at 14:00:20
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9872
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 However the sliding bias technology will permit a much higher class A maximum than the power supply would otherwise imply.

Threshold used this concept years ago. The more recent Cambridge Audio is currently using the concept in their Azur 851W power amp: they call it "Class XD" ... what's in a name :-)


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

Geez..., posted on July 17, 2014 at 20:21:48
DAVID
Audiophile

Posts: 763
Joined: September 26, 1999
 ...again my old McCormack had some 130,000 microfarads of capacitance. Oh well, it's always the sound that counts!

 

RE: Geez..., posted on July 17, 2014 at 23:13:14
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi i do not want to deviate from the topic
Only to say that before i was obsessed with uFs in the power supply
Now instead i am obsessed with the transformers VA rating
And Krell is a champion on this
They have unbelievable quality transformers and i think it is one of their strong points
I love Krell amps in general
I think that the mains transformer is the first and most important bottleneck for power
For this i always look at the power consumption on the back
To stay in topic i am afraid that the toughest competitors for this new Krell are older Krell integrateds that can be found around at very interesting prices.





Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: True that they call only the preamp class A, posted on July 18, 2014 at 04:14:10
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Sounds more like a marketing trick if you ask me.

There are many Class A/B amps out there with a relatively high bias. I once had a Sphinx Project 14 MkIII amp (great amp actually), which was a Class A/B hybrid. However, the idle power consumption was something like over 200 watts. This worked out to just over 20 watts of Class A power and 180 in Class A/B. Did it sound like a Class A amp, yes for most of the power used it did.

This Vanguard looks to be biased very low indeed if you look at its idle consumption.

 

it just looks cheap and fugly, posted on July 19, 2014 at 20:19:13
Shane from AUS
Audiophile

Posts: 1669
Location: Sydney
Joined: December 26, 2000
 What are Kfell thinking with that fugly silver thing in the middle?

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on July 20, 2014 at 16:44:21
skinzy
Audiophile

Posts: 62
Location: East Tennessee
Joined: February 13, 2003
 I like that manufacturers are trying to solve the heat problem (+wasteful consumption of electrons) and hoping the new Krell system works....its a great goal. I recently purchased the Classe CT-M600 because of their unique cooling system. Granted its Class A/B (3 watts A) but even after running all day they are barley warm to the touch and sound great. Did not want an amp that could fry eggs!

"A pound of perspiration is equal to an ounce of inspiration"

 

Not true at all when you see one in person, though I will say . . ., posted on July 22, 2014 at 10:13:20
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 It does not look as good in pictures as it does in person. In person it looks very nice and solid as a tank.

Also, I think it's very rude to shit all over a poster's enthusiasm over a new acquisition. You and the rest of the folks should feel at least a bit awkward, but I'm sure you don't because, hey, it's the internet, so feelings don't matter.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 22, 2014 at 10:19:21
JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000
 Eager to know how you like it.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

 

RE: So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 22, 2014 at 15:28:16
thebordas
 I chickened out...afraid to give up my S-550i's power! It already sounds great...maybe I can arrange for a demo of the Vangaurd?

 

RE: So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 23, 2014 at 09:39:06
rhale64
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Joined: January 10, 2011
 I wish you hadn't.

I used to own s Foundation. Had to sell because of hard times. It sounded incredible regardless of cost. And the faceplate looks awesome in real life. Pics of it dont do it justice. I have a Krell Chorus based on this same ibias technology on its way. Along with a new Foundation. I will post my thoughts here.

 

RE: So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 23, 2014 at 16:09:48
thebordas
 Just can't afford to make a mistake...what would you do?

 

RE: So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 23, 2014 at 18:14:52
rhale64
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Joined: January 10, 2011
 Sell it. And buy another different brand amp I guess. I have done this in the past with a Citation amp. It was hyped a bunch. Even go great reviews. I bought it and couldn't stand it. I kept it for about four months trying to like it. After all it had all the features I wanted and got great reviews. Couldn't bear it and sold it. I bought an Ada amp and liked it much better.

Now I have a Halo A23 and A52. I do like them a lot. But I want a matching amp to the Foundation. At least the same color. I have silver Halo's

 

RE: So, do you have it yet?, posted on July 24, 2014 at 05:02:01
thebordas
 I guess I will keep it then....unless I get a demo of the Vanguard first! I've had a taste of just about everything out there and I'm a Krell man for sure....just leary of giving up a good thing for the newest thing!

 

Did anyone see this 10Audio review of the Krell Phantom III, posted on July 24, 2014 at 06:40:41
jult52
Audiophile

Posts: 1016
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: May 27, 2009
 preamp? Perhaps the most negative review I have ever seen on that site.

I do have a constructive comment about this review: I consider what the review refers to as "harmonic depth" (accuracy of timbre, body, depth) much more important that "soundstage" depth - which is not something I very often hear in live music venues - yet soundstage is covered first, as if it was the more important of the preamp's sound characteristics. Anyway, the review is a full-on slam.

 

RE: Did anyone see this 10Audio review of the Krell Phantom III, posted on July 24, 2014 at 13:26:30
rhale64
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Joined: January 10, 2011
 Never heard of 10audio.com

The review of the Krell amp was miserable also. Maybe this is the reason Dan and the rest of the folks couldn't get along.

 

RE: Did anyone see this 10Audio review of the Krell Phantom III, posted on July 24, 2014 at 15:37:39
thebordas
 Didn't catch the xlr's used or the breakin period? Also, I never heard of him or the blog! Very doubtfull of his findings...sounds like breakin to me?

 

This is what i find weird ... , posted on July 29, 2014 at 06:22:32
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 I mean, one review is bashing the product (2LPs out of 10 is bashing without appeal)
Another one is very positive (see the link)
I wonder how is this possible
Two completely different opinions
I would pick it immediately of course ... i love Krell
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: This is what i find weird ... , posted on July 31, 2014 at 06:53:46
thebordas
 I picked up a mint FPB300cx and ordered an ARC LS17SE PREAMP!! I owned a FPB AMP and an ARC LS25 combo back in the late 90's and have never had a better sonic experience! Gonna go retro with a new twist:)

 

RE: This is what i find weird ... , posted on July 31, 2014 at 22:34:22
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks for the advice
I have a huge respect for both the Brands you mention.
My outburst was more general.
The professional reviewers should me more cautious before bashing a product so badly.
I am completely sure that the Krell Phantom preamp cannot be that bad.
Solid state units in my experience have so much better bass and highs usually.
Only midrange can be a little hard and flat.
A good selection of cables can make wonders.
Instead it is possible that in a specific chain a component cannot sound completely convincing. Maybe for a problem of matching, break-in ... there are several possibilities.
I very much prefer positive reviews also because i think that in the end people want to know what is good and then go hunting for that.
Personally my last buy has been an old Primare Pre 30, on the basis of some positive reviews.
At the beginning i was perplexed for the sound quite closed, flat.
Then the former owner told me that he had left it unused for months.
So i waited and now it starts sounding better.
But based on the first listening i was very perplexed indeed.
I am sure your new couple will sound fantastic.
Lucky you !

Kind regards,
bg

 

usually "harmonic depth" and "soundstage" depth go together, posted on August 1, 2014 at 03:25:28
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Soundstage depth is often affected by the quality and lack of distortion in high frequencies and this also has a quite heavy impact on the perception of tonal quality.

I am inclined to believe his findings; however, his choice of amp being Class D leaves somethings open to doubt IMO. It could be that the faults of the preamp are exaccerbated by faults in the high frequencies of the amp.

The 10audio has been around for a while and he is usually pretty positive about most items. This negative review must mean that in his system this preamp REALLY sucked compared to the competitors (other solid state pres forget better tube pres).

The other site has been around for a while too but the reviewer was unknown to me. He might be new to reviewing and a bit awed by the Krell name.

 

Why do you love Krell?? Have you owned Krell?, posted on August 1, 2014 at 03:30:31
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I have never been impressed with a Krell preamp or amp for long.

I think their DACs and cd players have some serious merit though.

I noticed that he found the Krell to be quite forward sounding...this corroborates well with the 10Audio finding of a flat soundstage.

Based on the music selections (Adele 21 is a badly compressed pop recording) I would not place a lot of stock in his conclusions.

Probably this preamp can be easily bettered for a lot less money.

 

" Based on the music selections ", posted on August 1, 2014 at 05:26:40
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and i think you have nailed another big problem ... the quality of the recordings used
To evaluate the 3d ability of a unit it is important to use tracks with a very pronounced 3d effect, real or the result of a processing
But 2 out of 10 LPs ... this is over the top.
I am sure that the preamp in question maybe with a good cable selections would perform ok.
But recordings are fundamental. They must have a 3d effect well captured.
The selection of the sound tracks i think is a fundamental step in a reviewing process.
Moreover i also think that from the selection some opinions can be given about the goodness of the all procedure.
Is like measuring a length with a broken meter ...
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Based on the music selections ", posted on August 1, 2014 at 11:36:31
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I disagree. If a preamp costs that much and cannot create a decent soundstage then 2 is probably generous. Frankly, I get sick of the "grade inflation" that goes on in hifi reviewing (I won't say critique because in general there is very little critiquing going on...adevetainment is more like it).

If you spend $5500 on a preamp it damn well better do some kind of 3d imaging and soundstaging...that is one of the big steps up in sound quality supposedly as you go up in price. The fact that he got much better sound from the Ayre for a lot less money is telling (Ayre makes good sounding SS preamps...but still a long way off from the best tube preamps).


You also have it backwards, the poor recordings were used on the positive review. I am not sure what was used on the negative review.


I have bought a number of pieces of gear based on reviews in the past and mostly they sucked despite the glorious praises heaped on them. Now, I decide by listening, listening and more listening.

 

RE: " Based on the music selections ", posted on August 2, 2014 at 02:20:28
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks again for the very interesting advice
I have to say that i have no direct experience of this preamp
But it is really hard to me to accept the idea that a krell preamp is not very good indeed.
I have experience of some Krell amplification heard extensively at an old audio fair, and i remember a pin point 3D accuracy, even scary for its precision with Wilson Audio speakers
So it is difficult for me to think that they have not improved on a alredy excellent performance
But i have no direct experience of the unit.
I am at least surprised.
Thanks again.







Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Based on the music selections ", posted on August 2, 2014 at 03:09:47
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Companies change and so do their products...not always for the better. As you probably know Krell's main man left a few years ago...this can often lead to a change in design philosophy and a subsequent change in the "house sound".

I have a lot of experience with the old Krell and it was never terrible but it was also never at reference level IMO. Good tubes beat them every time...even on Apogees.

 

RE: KRELL VANGAURD COMING!!, posted on August 2, 2014 at 12:51:24
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Rick,

indeed it looks like the "synchro-bias / new class A" line of Technics TOTL amplifiers in the begin eighties.

I own the SE-A5 wich has this synchro-bias device.

IMHO a great sounding amplifier for the comparatively "modest" price, but to me it doesn't really sound like a real pure class A amp. But of course, it's not a Krell...

 

RE: " Based on the music selections ", posted on August 6, 2014 at 06:23:39
thebordas
 I agree....I decided to go with an ARC LS17SE/Krell 300CX(MINT) combo to drive my new 803D's!! Always preferred tube pre/SS amp combo's! Sounds amazingly organic yet clear.

 

RE: Taht's what they said about Sustained Plateau Biasing..., posted on August 6, 2014 at 09:39:55
readargos
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: readargos
Joined: October 31, 2002
 I understand that's one motivation behind the new series: using the same casework across the entire product line to save costs, allowing all production to return to the U.S. while remaining competitively priced.

 

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