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Volume control settings

108.216.110.56
Posted on July 10, 2014 at 15:49:14
M3 lover
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 From time to time an Inmate, or sometimes a visitor, will post a complaint about making a system change and then needing a higher volume control setting. I suppose if they have been accustomed to listening at the 9 o'clock position they feel as if they have lots of "reserve" power to call on.

I'm not an expert on electronics but a friend who is once advised me the ideal condition would be for the volume pot to be wide open at the loudest level an individual would ever care to listen. That would allow for the "purest" signal path.

What most of us may not consider is when we advance the volume control we are not truly adding gain, we are reducing gain attenuation. Note that some preamps/receivers are actually marked with negative numbers which decrease as the gain position is increased.

So rest easy. If you changed your amp and you now must advance your volume control to a higher position for a given listening level, all other things being equal, you likely now have less distortion in your signal path.

All this assumes the volume control is a traditional potentiometer, not a stepped or "electronic" control.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

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    ...
Yes and......................., posted on July 10, 2014 at 15:57:57
Kal Rubinson
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Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 it also assumes that the input stage on the amp (internal or external) can handle the increased Signal voltage and that the amp has the capability to increase its power output accordingly. Not unlikely but not guaranteed.

 

Not only that, but, posted on July 10, 2014 at 16:53:50
E-Stat
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 Modern preamps or line stages typically have less gain than preamps of yore. The reason being that phono sources required more gain and the work was divided between phono and line stage.

With my last CDP, a passive attenuator arrangement yielded the best results. Most listening at high levels was achieved around -8 db (depending on recording-Telarc CDs needed a bit more) with a 4V output source. My current DAC prefers an active pre, but is set to a relatively low 12 DB of gain where the gain control lives in the 12:00 to 2:00 range which is what Audio Research recommends for optimum S/N.

 

Everything sounds its best..., posted on July 10, 2014 at 20:27:14
mkuller
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 ...with the volume control at 11.

 

Perfect summary! nt, posted on July 10, 2014 at 22:31:50
M3 lover
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 nt

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 11, 2014 at 04:04:32
Ozzy
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Posts: 7595
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Many people confuse the terms "gain" and "power". It's a common thing.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 11, 2014 at 05:15:40
BCR
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 Well said!

 

RE: Everything sounds its best..., posted on July 11, 2014 at 05:18:24
BCR
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 Really?

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 11, 2014 at 06:47:04
jsm71
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Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 "What most of us may not consider is when we advance the volume control we are not truly adding gain, we are reducing gain attenuation."

That is absolutely correct. You have the same dynamic at home with your water hose. Your home has a maximum water flow that you can't change (just like your amp's wattage level). As you crank the hose spigot higher this is similar to raising the volume on your preamp or amp gain control. You are only reducing the resistance against your maximum flow.

I prefer a setup where my main volume control has a lot of swing to it so that it is not overly sensitive. Having a gain control on the amp is useful for this unless the amp is lower wattage in which case you may wish to leave it full gain. Regardless of how many places you limit your amp's maximum output, it will always have the same amount. Changing sources or preamps with varying output gain will not change that. It might result in a different dial position on your volume control however to get the same volume as before. Don't sweat it.

 

Have you noticed one leg is now longer than the other?, posted on July 11, 2014 at 08:05:53
oldmkvi
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 That's because it's been "Pulled!"

 

That's what Nigel Tufnel says!, posted on July 11, 2014 at 08:29:22
E-Stat
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RE: That's what Nigel Tufnel says!, posted on July 11, 2014 at 08:40:24
mkuller
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 ...I wonder how many people were confused by

 

LOL!!, posted on July 11, 2014 at 10:03:43
E-Stat
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 That's great. :)

 

That's a good one! Never seen that one before. (nt), posted on July 11, 2014 at 20:30:53
Sondek
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RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 11, 2014 at 22:37:07
Caucasian Blackplate
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 "What most of us may not consider is when we advance the volume control we are not truly adding gain, we are reducing gain attenuation. Note that some preamps/receivers are actually marked with negative numbers which decrease as the gain position is increased."

This is a sweeping generalization that is not always true. There are ways to actually control the gain of an active device, and there are a few preamps that function in this manner.

"So rest easy. If you changed your amp and you now must advance your volume control to a higher position for a given listening level, all other things being equal, you likely now have less distortion in your signal path."

I completely disagree. Draw the AC current loop between the output of your source and your volume pot. Observe the differences at different positions.

While a volume pot that's cranked all the way up only ends up serving as a pair of input resistors, you would have to make the case that the output of the pot would be incapable of properly driving the circuit that followed when turned down a bit.

 

And..., posted on July 12, 2014 at 12:34:33
wheezer
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 So rest easy. If you changed your amp and you now must advance your volume control to a higher position for a given listening level, all other things being equal, you likely now have less distortion in your signal path.

A higher volume position on the pre driving a different amp, indicates the new amp has lower sensitivity. This requires more drive from the pre.

Distortion increases as the output device is allowed to be driven harder. The volume control is nothing more than a gate between the source and the grid.

There are other variables that can effect THD,IM as well.

Cheers,
W

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 12, 2014 at 13:46:11
georgehifi
Manufacturer

Posts: 143
Location: Oz
Joined: January 25, 2004
 M3 lover hi, your friend is right, here is a qutote from a living audio legend designer, Nelson Pass of Pass Labs and Threshold fame.


A Quote from the master Nelson Pass

Nelson Pass,
"We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.
Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.
Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.
What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.
And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp."


Cheers George

 

RE: more on volume control settings, posted on July 12, 2014 at 14:05:50
M3 lover
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 Hi CB,

Note I said up front I'm not an expert on electronics. That is precisely why I used words like "most" and "may".

My intent in posting this topic was simply to suggest that needing to increase the relative volume control setting when using a different amp may not be a bad thing. Many times I've read comments where someone discounts an amp simply because they don't hear the same volume level as they did with their old amp at a given setting.

As your comments suggest, along with those added by wheezer, it is more complicated than that.

Comparisons between amps should be made with the same output level (measured by dBs or voltage), regardless of where the volume control is set.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 13, 2014 at 10:53:26
Palustris
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Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
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 "We've got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more. Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o'clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up."

I say that here day in and day out and am soundly excoriated for it. Nobody want to hear it. They want two boxes where one would be more than sufficient. Nobody wants to reduce the noise, distortion, and cost a one box solution would bring them. How could they face their audio buddies with one box fewer than they have? This isn't about looking for the best sound or nobody would use a preamp; it is about the current audio fashion.

 

RE: more on volume control settings, posted on July 13, 2014 at 11:01:31
Palustris
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Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 "it is more complicated than that."

Don't allow yourself to be baffled by bullsh!t. What you have said is true for 90% of the cases.

The bottom line is simple: most audio systems have much more gain than they need. All the added gain stages add noise and distortion. Nobody wants to hear this; that's for sure.

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 14, 2014 at 14:26:46
georgehifi
Manufacturer

Posts: 143
Location: Oz
Joined: January 25, 2004
This is what can happen with a statement like that, as people have a lot of money tied up in their preamps, and they don't like being told it's almost an extinct piece of audio gear, a colouration maker.

You get excoriated, so do I for preaching it, Nelson Pass gets put on a pedestal.
This is what happens when you have a massive amount of design history behind you. At least he said it also, and the naysayers can't put him down, because he IS audio god.

Cheers George

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 15, 2014 at 20:23:22
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 I'm with you, George. Well, except for the part of Nelson Pass being a living legend.

The amount of improved musicality with a passive pre can be pretty incredible. I assume this is mostly due to less distortions.

In the last 14 years, I've owned or auditioned about 15 preamps, including 2 Placette Active Linestage's and the Pass X1 and X2.5.

I've always taken great pride in the level of dynamics I've been able to achieve so a passive was out of the question for me.

However, I recently took possession of a 500wpc amp and suddenly the dynamics were overkill with an active preamp, especially the initial attack of a note. It was as though I was in the audience, yet every initial strike of a drum, pluck of a string, or blatt of horn was like my ear was 6 inches from the instrument. And there's simply nothing realistic about that.

Now with the high-powered amp and a passive pre, the level of musicality has greatly improved, high-frequency percussives have become quite pristine, far more ambient info, etc. but also the punch is still there when required for dynamic passages.

Only now the dynamics take place back up on the soundstage while I'm seated in the audience. Perhaps not quite the wow factor for some, but certainly much more musical and realistic.

And without doubt the lowered noise floor of a passive pre greatly improves most every aspect of the presentation.

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 17, 2014 at 14:20:51
georgehifi
Manufacturer

Posts: 143
Location: Oz
Joined: January 25, 2004
 quote: stehno, "the dynamics were overkill with an active preamp, especially the initial attack of a note."

Yes maybe you are hearing exaggerated "T.I.M." leading edge "transient intermodulation distortion" with the active pre.

A well implemented passive will give just as good if not better "bigger" transients, but in a more "wholesome, richer" way with body, instead of being fired at your ears from the individual speaker drivers like active pre's tend to do.

Cheers George

 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 17, 2014 at 16:33:22
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 I'm sure it wasn't any more TIM than what you receive. Probably less.

No. It was most likely closely miked instruments whose air from the initial strike perhaps caused significant movemet at the recording mic's diaphragm that when played back by a high-powered amp tremendously emphasizes, even overemphasizes, that initial attack and thus give the impression that my ears where up on stage with the instruments for those overemphasized initial attacks.


 

RE: Volume control settings, posted on July 17, 2014 at 19:22:07
georgehifi
Manufacturer

Posts: 143
Location: Oz
Joined: January 25, 2004
 All active circuits have more distortion/s and colourations than a good passive device. (re: Nelsons Pass's article in my first post and he sells active pre's))

One way you can figure this out, is if you have a source that is a good low output impedance, say below 1kohm which most are, and feed it direct into your poweramp, which should be the industry standard of 33kohm or higher which most are. This will be the most transparent/dynamic/uncoloured sound you can get.

Put on a known quiet starting CD (with your finger on the stop button just in case) and listen. This is the most transparent/dynamic way of getting the source signal to the poweramp, and I'll bet my last dollar that the well implemented passive volume control comes the closest to this sound or equals it.

The only way an active preamp can sound more dynamic than this is two ways. It is distorting with TIM giving you the impression of more leading edge dynamics or it has a built in dynamic rage enhancer (DBX) which sound like rubbish.

Cheers George

 

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