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High gain and Goldenjacks attenuators

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Posted on April 11, 2014 at 05:03:09
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 So after using my couple of Sony TA-E86B preamp and TA-N86B class A power amp for a while, replacing the Technics SE-A5 and Korn&Macway sP100, I had the idea of trying the SP100 preamp with the little Sony amp. And boy I'm not disappointed! Once again the SP100 beats the other preamp, a situation that keeps repeating itself no matter wich equipment i'm using. Shame for the esthetics, the sony couple looking of course amazing together, but the K&M preamp is just cleaner, faster, more transparent, more dynamic, and as neutral as can be.

Problem is: with my 104dB speakers, there's WAY too much gain. The 9 o'clock position pushes out party levels, even tho the amp is 1v/full power (18watts RMS). With the Technics power amp, I could use the latter's input level controls, but the Sony is devoid of any level control and takes full output from the preamp.
The CD player output is already reduced by 5dB (internal volume control) but I wanna get some Goldenjacks attenuators.
Question is: wich value should I get? 10dB (standard)? 14dB?
And where shou!ld I put them for the best sound? between preamp and amp, or between source and preamp (in wich case i'd need more than one set)?

Thanks for any advice!

 

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Yes, get an amp that puts out less than 2W or get less sensitive speakers, posted on April 11, 2014 at 07:15:46
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 It's not a matter of gain in your amp or preamp. It's the high sensitivity of your speakers, which makes those 18W sound like 300W through an 87dB sensitive speaker.

The options are either to run a low powered amp (1W would work), or get rid of the speakers and buy some that are less sensitive.

You can't attenuate this problem away.

Someone else can do the math to convince you.

 

RE: High gain and Goldenjacks attenuators, posted on April 11, 2014 at 08:04:33
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 You can buy a pair of the 10-dB attenuators and test them in different places. The key to where they sound best is probably based on the input impedance of the receiving component versus the output impedance of the source component. You probably won't know what works best for you until you experiment with different configurations.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: Yes, get an amp that puts out less than 2W or get less sensitive speakers, posted on April 11, 2014 at 11:59:45
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 huh... thanks Frihed but, with all due respect, it IS a matter of gain. High sensitivity speakers make the "problem" more obvious, but i've been using a 120 watts/channel amp for the last 5 years with the same speakers and never experienced any problem until i moved to a preamp that has huge amount of gain. If you use 0.5watt average to drive ur speakers, it doesn't matter if you have 1.5watt behind or 119.5watts behind... useless headroom maybe, but it won't necesseraly SHOUT unless the preamps sends signals with too much amplitude...

 

OK, but attenuation kills the music in my experience, posted on April 11, 2014 at 13:05:15
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Get a preamp with 0-8dB of gain. If your source is not high impedance use an autoformer passive control.

 

Agreed 100%..., posted on April 12, 2014 at 07:01:18
PAR
 I too have a need for either lower gain at the power amp or lower output at the preamp. Both pre and power come from the same mfg BTW.

I have tried 10dB in line attenuators from a couple of manufacturers and both throttle small dynamic shifts making the emotional aspect of the music less. You can even hear it with speech (us Brits tend to speak using quite a lot of soft/loud contrasts).

Much better just to use the volume control at a low setting even though that is not wholly convenient and that the pot does not match the two channels ideally at this setting.

 

RE: Yes, get an amp that puts out less than 2W or get less sensitive speakers, posted on April 12, 2014 at 08:47:07
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "it IS a matter of gain."

Yes, it certainly is. Location-wise I'd attenuate between the preamp and power amp. There are some interesting things you can do in the process depending upon the impedances at either end and the cable. If you are game to measure them and build your own attenuators I'll bore you with the details. Otherwise try the one's you buy at both ends to see if one sounds better.

Regards, Rick

 

RE: OK, but attenuation kills the music in my experience, posted on April 12, 2014 at 09:53:58
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 I afraid I must agree. The Goldenjacks ( 10db ) do exactly what they're designed to do, unfortunately they seemed to suck the life out of the music in the process. Although less convenient, better sound by far just gingerly adjusting the vol. pot. May be a better approach to the issue than the Goldenjacks.

 

RE: Yes, get an amp that puts out less than 2W or get less sensitive speakers, posted on April 12, 2014 at 11:51:09
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
 Absolutely, it is in fact a matter of gain.
In lieu of inline attenuators, a neat trick is to build a variable gain voltage divider and solder it across the preamp's output(L,R)jacks.
Vishay 1280G (M.Percy)bulk foil trimmer in series with a fixed R of the same resistance.

Cheers,
W

 

I have been using these between pre and power amp.., posted on April 12, 2014 at 19:23:57
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1482
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 and they do the job nicely. No degradation of sound whatsoever.

http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1397355425&sr=1-1

YMMV
AB.

 

RE: Agreed 100%..., posted on April 14, 2014 at 18:47:46
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
 Agree with the chorus, this is a classic case of excess gain in the system and has nothing to do with amplifier power output. I had one of the earlier versions of the Coincident Statement line stage which was 20db of gain. This was too much for my system. The builder changed it to a 10 db version and this was ideal for my needs. Source output,Preamp gain, amplifier sensitivity and speaker sensitivity all must be accounted for.

 

RE: Agreed 100%..., posted on April 15, 2014 at 11:25:25
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1482
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 Yes, but how do you think the builder changed it from 20db to 10db. He added resistors to the output, which is the same as plugging the Goldenjacks in between your pre and power amp.

AB.

 

RE: High gain and Goldenjacks attenuators, posted on April 15, 2014 at 16:40:35
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
 You aren't familiar with the particular line stage.
Gain was changed via the transformers used for volume control rather than manipulating resistors. Bottom line, it worked out beautifully. There's more than one solution.

 

This can structure your decision to success, posted on April 23, 2014 at 04:56:42
ad010685
Audiophile

Posts: 752
Joined: February 22, 2002
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/186018-what-gain-structure.html

 

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