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Primaluna owners - speak up

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Posted on March 3, 2013 at 07:53:58
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
I hate it when I think my system is done and then the dreaded what-if creeps into my head. I recently switched from Maggie 1.7s to Janszen zA2.1 hybrid stats. During that transition I retained my Sanders Magtech amp which made my Maggies sing. The Magtech is also quite good with stats so I thought I would simply keep it.

Here's my "dilemma". The Janszen's are actually quite easy to drive and are rated at 8 ohms, pretty unique for stats. I am barely using the output from the Magtech. It sounds great but I can't help feeling like all that power is going to waste.

My local dealer sells Primaluna gear and suggested that I use their Prologue Seven monoblocks. These are driven by KT88 tubes and are conservatively rated at 70 watts each. I say conservatively because apparently they don't push the tubes to their full capacity for benign heat generation and longer life. The only model I saw first hand was an integrated model with less output but it had been on all day and indeed it was only warm.

I have a Cary SLP 98P tube preamp and love it, but I have always blocked out considering tube amps for the following reasons:

1. Heat
2. Good ones are high cost and generally have to sit on the floor
3. Tube life and that cost
4. Here's the big one for me - biasing. I simply wouldn't want to mess with it.
5. Blown tubes have known to hurt other things like speaker drivers or other parts of the amp.

That list may have some inaccuracies but that has always been my bias against tube amps. I can't ignore the loud collective voice of tube amp owners however who swear by better sound. That's what keeps me looking.

The current Primaluna amps seem to erase all of the concerns from my list. The Prologue Seven monoblocks are small enough to sit side by side on my lower rack. If the integrated model I saw was a good representative, heat generation is minor. They have an Adaptive AutoBias system that constantly keeps each tube independently biased to the proper operating range for better performance and lowered distortion. No biasing ever and you don't have to have matched tubes. Each ceramic tube socket also has a warning light on the chassis that indicates low life. The build quality (designed in the Netherlands and built in China) seems first rate. They also have a way to protect the amp if a tube fails. Lastly the Prologue Seven sells for only $2,589 for the pair. I could sell my Magtech and have money in my pocket if switching proved desirable.

I heard the integrated amp in the store with some Goldenear towers. I'm not familiar with them so I would need to try something with my setup. My dealer offered to let me try that amp at home. It wouldn't have as much power but I should be able to get a feel for the sound textures. I need to get my primary cartridge back from Soundsmith before I do this.

In the meantime what say you Primaluna owners, especially those who had powerful SS amps prior? What model do you have and are the various design claims true? A couple of the reviews I read suggested the 70 watts were even driving Maggies well. Hmmm, is an all tube system worth pursuing? Is it worth selling an amp that I feel has no sonic flaws? I know, I know. You have to try it. I hate when this happens. :-)

Scott

 

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RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 08:38:43
krbmmk
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: July 3, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
February 11, 2006
I have a pair of Proloque Seven's. I have had them about 3 or 4 years now, maybe longer. I have had no problems BUT depending on your listening room they do put out a lot of heat. I live in CA and in the summer they are uncomfortable to use. However my listening room is just an extra bedroom that is 12' x 14'. In a larger open area they may be fine. Other than the heat they are rock solid and have had no issues. I use them with a pair of Harbet M30's and am pleased with how they sound.

Take Care

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 09:24:48
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
This is the feedback I was looking for. I also use a bedroom today for listening but I will eventually be out in a larger room. The unit I heard that had limited heat output was the Dialog Premium integrated amp with 38 watts/ch. Perhaps the older Prologue models like I am considering with higher output will in fact generate some heat.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 09:32:17
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7954
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
I've owned Primaluna. And I've owned Rogue. The Rogue is dramatically better across the board, sound quality, parts, etc.

Biasing with the gear is ridiculously easy, doesn't take five minutes and only has to be done maybe twice a year.

Look into the Atlas Magnum.



'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 09:38:57
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
I have had Rogue on my radar as well. I like US companies. My biases against tube amps are clearly based on ignorance, I will freely admit. I am attending Axpona this week and I noticed Rogue has a room. I will certainly stop by there.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 10:07:18
After a few years with a PL 2, been flip flopping between either staying with a integrated (Dialogue Premium) or go separates.
If I decide separates- Dialogue 7. The extra features over the PL series are nice.
The line straddles the value/diminishing returns line better than some Chinese gear.
The heat issue isn't a big deal. If amps are on a lower shelf of a rack, shelf above them will get a little warm.
They are essentially goof proof. The tube hassle thing is overblown.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 12:07:31
Grinnell
Audiophile

Posts: 708
Location: Front Range
Joined: December 23, 2007
I have PL2 for 5 years and loved it. Nice sound and easy to use. Just switched to a 4 watt Decware SEP so can't help you on the power needs but for the price the Primalunas are a good deal.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 12:32:49
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46200
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
I'm not famliar with your speakers but I have a pair of Thiel CS2.4 which are not the easiest to drive but probably not as bad as some Maggies. I can only give you a brief summary of my experience but not specifically with Primaluna gear.

I have the all tube Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated amp and I also had the larger Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum. Both put out about 100wpc with KT120 output tubes and both drive my Thiel speakers wonderfully.

Just for grins I brought the Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum over to a friends house. He has a pair of Magnepan MG 1.7's that he normally drives with his Spread Spectrum Technologies Ampzilla 2000 2nd Edition 300wpc monoblocks. The music is effortless and smooth with the Ampzillas but when we put the Rogue in there, it sounded slightly underpowered and a little compressed. The higher power Ampzilla were noticeably better, more at ease and effortless, no strain, and hugely dynamic.

That being said, the Rogue amps on my Thiel speakers sound wonderful as the Thiels probably don't require quite as much power. I also find that I like the vacuum tube Rogue amps at about 100wpc much better than the 600wpc Bryston 7BSST2 monoblocks I once owned.... when driving my Thiels.

I am hesitant to try Primaluna because most of their tube gear is relatively low power and I suspect that my Thiels need about 100wpc or more. With EL34's my Cronus Magnum puts out about 55wpc and it didn't cut it with the Thiels. The higher power KT120 made all the difference in my case.

Where am I going with this? Tube power is great but only if you have enough of it. That can be said of any amp but if you find that the Primaluna amps at 70wpc are not sufficient for your speakers, I wouldn't give up on tube power. Maybe you just need more of it. I'm not sure if you can squeeze more power out of the Primaluna amps by swapping tubes. The Rogue amps have sufficient power supply heft to get you there, about 55wpc to over 100wpc with a simple tube swap.

Good luck.



 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 14:56:27
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
I am concerned that the Primaluna amps may be a little light. When I had the Maggies 1.7s I started out with a McIntosh amp at 270 watts/ch. The clipping circuits would kick in and that didn't sound very good. The Magtech fixed that in spades. I have become spoiled with tons of headroom not to mention a very fine sounding SS amp.

All the Primaluna amps can be outfitted with KT120 tubes but given that those are a little taller you can't use the cages with those. I am pretty familiar with Thiels. I use Thiels all around in my HT, anchored by older CS3s.

 

"Tube power is great but only if you have enough of it.", posted on March 3, 2013 at 15:10:54
plantsman
Audiophile

Posts: 4792
Location: Maine
Joined: April 4, 2002
True that and too little respected. Quite a few people seem to be oblivious to the dynamic compression and sharply rising distortion of not enough amplifier.

I think the Thiel 2.4s are actually 3 dB or more more efficient but present a significantly more difficult load than Maggies.

"There are political consequences to remembering things that never happened and forgetting things that did." Ariel Levy

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 3, 2013 at 17:48:10
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
I looked at your speakers specs. They are 4 ohm at 87db. Janszen does say recommended power of 50 to 100 watts. It some what depends on room size and how loud you like to listen. I am one of those guys who drove both my Maggie 1.6's and 3.6's with an 80 watt per channel VTL in a small room and enjoyed the sound very much. I am now using Gilmore Raptor monoblocks at 500w per channel into 4 ohms and they sound much better from top to bottom. The Prologue 7's will probably be fine but I would follow Abes suggestion and go for some higher power Rogues. Enjoy your new stuff
Alan

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 4, 2013 at 10:42:30
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
The Janszens are indeed rated a 8 ohms. Per the web site "Power handling -- 50W - 150W RMS/ch/8 Ohm recommended; up to 250W tolerated (500W/4 Ohm)". The way he lists it is a bit confusing and the original design was indeed rated at 4 ohms, but he made some internal wiring changes on his latest build (which I have) and upped the rating to 8 ohms.

The impedance rating aside, I am getting the impression that I won't be happy with less than 100 watts going with tubes. The Rogues have been recommended by many on this site over the years and on this thread. The Stereo 90 Magnum seems like the minimum I should consider from Rogue and affordable. Above that makes this extra money which I'm not going to do.

I have seen your praise of the raptors along side similar input from Magtech owners and I find your preference of the raptors interesting. I also VERY much like the power headroom of the Magtech and it great sound. Having never owned a tube amp I am just not sure if going that route would sway me away. To be truthful I'm also not sure I want to drop $400 or so each time new tubes are needed over the life of the amp. I'd be curious from long time tube amp owners how much tube cost they incur over 10 years.

Starting to think if it's not broken, why fix it? I'm just curious enough though that I will probably find a way to try a tube amp somehow.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 4, 2013 at 13:16:14
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
I have had tube amps all my life until the Raptors and never found the cost of tubes to be a real issue. Low voltage signal tubes can last for 10 to 20 years without ever failing. Even power output tubes can last for 5 to 10 years if they are used in a well designed amp that doesn't bias them to an extreme. I love the Raptors because they sound to me like a great high powered tube amp. I still use a tube preamp and my dac has a tube output stage. By the way if you got for instance the Rogue Stereo 90 it uses 4 KT-88's or 6550 power tubes. You can get 4 Tungsol 6550 tubes for about $150 or even the excellent Genelex Gold Lion KT-88's for about $250 for a quad set.
It real doesn't have to be that expensive
Alan

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 4, 2013 at 13:52:02
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
Good to hear all these experiences. Thanks.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 5, 2013 at 17:07:34
TGT
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Location: Kentucky
Joined: December 6, 2002
I own the PrimaLuna ProLogue Seven Monoblocks. See my review this section. They drive my Thiel 3.6s just fine. Love these amps.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 07:02:42
Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009
I have the Rogue Stereo 90 and use it to drive Totem Hawks, which are 86db 6 ohm speakers know to suck up a lot of power. I usually run in Triode with KT90 tubes for about 50 watts per channel. No problems in my 13x17 foot room. This amp has only four output tubes with individual fuses and bias pots for each tube and a built in bias meter to make biasing super simple. Important features for a tube amp IMO. Unmatched output tubes can be used which allows for NOS choices. Uses KT120, KT90, KT88, EL34, KT66, 6L6gc types for outputs, 6SN7 drivers and 12AX7 for input. Great lineup for tube rolling.
The Rogue is a "modern" sounding tube amp that is not mushy or overly tubey sounding but it still has the bloom in the midrange that escapes solid state amps. Tubes and electrostats are a magic combo.
Are you loving the Jensens?

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 07:53:28
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
Thanks for aiming your comments directly to my situation. The JansZens are rated at 87dB sensitivity, but the load seems even easier. I am indeed loving these new speakers. I can't find any sonic flaws. I was listening to a mono Duke Ellington LP (Uptown) last night and the stage depth was simply amazing. Betty Roche's vocal on Take the 'A' Train put her front stage in a very convincing manner. Could a tube amp improve this more?

David Janszen has a room at the Axpona show this week. I'll be curious to see visitor reactions because few have heard these speakers. I hope he gets his setup dialed in.

It will be an interesting "where's all the gear?" room aimed at the younger crowd. He will be using only hi-rez files on a laptop piped to an exaSound e20 DAC. The DAC will be attached via balanced cables to Bryston powerpac mono amps, each bolted to the back of a speaker. Visitors will see almost no gear. I remain curious though to see how all tubes sound with these speakers.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 07:56:26
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
I am quite familiar with Thiels. You are marked as Kentucky on your profile, anywhere near Cincinnati? Email me if you could demo these amps.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 08:31:01
Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009
Computer source/ Bryston amps is the polar opposite of analog/tube amplification. I have heard the Brystons many times and respected the sound but never loved it. If you love the Bryston setup you will probably not love an all tube setup. If you find the Brystons a little thin and stark sounding (electronic is perhaps to strong) and crave more bloom and "meat on the bones", then you are a candidate for an all tube amp.
Let us know how the show setup sounds.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 11:35:55
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
I'm not a Bryston fan or one of not using a preamp. I hope David's setup doesn't come off too dry. I sort of cringed when he told me what he was planning. His decision however. We'll see. He does have however bass and tweeter controls on his speakers and that goes a long way to balancing out room or preference decisions.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 12:10:13
TGT
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Location: Kentucky
Joined: December 6, 2002
I'm in Louisville.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on March 6, 2013 at 12:33:57
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
Louisvile is close. I've driven further for shoes. :-)

If you would be willing to demo the amps some weekend drop me an email through my jsm71 moniker. I accept emails.

Scott

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on April 12, 2013 at 11:23:06
Mouse ears
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Location: Dallas
Joined: July 16, 2010
I have the dialogue 2. I've been running mine with KT120s which drop the bass range down a little lower.



 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on October 23, 2014 at 11:06:30
rob@robpearson.net
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 23, 2014
I have a Cary SLP98 and Prolog 7 mono Blocks, I have swapped out all the tubes with much better ones than the stock (except the KT88's. I prefer them to NOS Mullard EL34's, the KT 88's have tighter transients and more attack. My friend preferred the EL34's so its all a personal preference.
Putting high end 6SN7 tubes in the front pots on the SLP98 and high end 12AX7 tubes in the Prolog 7's made the most noticeable improvement, extended clean highs and a tighter more refined low end.
I am using KEF LS 50's speakers in a smaller room, 16' x 12 and they sound amazing.
I may add a Sumiko S.0 Sub (when it becomes available) or MJ pro Mk 11 sub,
just to add a tiny amount of extended very low end, (on some bass light older recordings - I do like a clean solid low end) but if its a wonderful recording the subs are not needed with the LS-50's.(Ginger Baker's-Why, being a great example)
I'm a huge fan of the Cary SLP98 and Prolog 7 combo. (with upgraded tubes-get the best you can afford, its worth it!)
RWP

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on October 23, 2014 at 16:48:55
Schlep
Audiophile

Posts: 289
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Joined: April 24, 2007
Scott -

'It sounds great but I can't help feeling like all that power is going to waste'

That extra power is not going to waste, it's creating headroom so your system sounds more effortless. This ties right into some of Abe's comments.

Pay attention to the dynamics with the tube amps on the speakers compared to the solid state. See what you think.

That said, tube amps are a nice alternative to solid state amps. You said you were going to keep the solid state amp, so you can switch them out when you feel like it.

Craig

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on October 24, 2014 at 06:46:33
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
Well a lot has transpired since my original post on this topic. I did not opt for a Primaluna amp but rather a Decware ZMA. The ZMA has less rated wattage actually than the Primaluna but has a great power supply and crazy caps for really good dynamics. The sound of the ZMA is what I was looking for. I also liked buying from a US company who has lifetime warranties. I'm not knocking Primaluna. They have had great success. It's nice to have choices.

I've learned a great deal about tube amps in general which wasn't hard since I was clueless before this started. A friend of mine on this forum also has the JansZens and he just acquired some Manley mono blocks with about 2.5 times my power and is thrilled with that paring. Even with that extra power that only translates into about 4-5 more dB of volume. The sound of the amp is more important than the output unless you simply don't have enough. I could use more power but I'm in a small room and I don't play as loudly as the system can. The JansZens are quite easy to drive with tube amps.

I also have completely upgraded all the tubes on my Cary SLP-98P to some nice NOS choices. That has proven to be an amazing improvement and has given me a new respect for that preamp.

I also sold off the Magtech amp to a local friend who has some older Gallow speakers and wanted the power. I value sound quality over power. The Magtech, which is the best SS amp I've owned, simply didn't sound nearly as good as the Decware when mated to the JansZens. I'm glad I went to all tubes with these speakers. It seems to work the best.

 

RE: Primaluna owners - speak up, posted on January 2, 2016 at 22:19:58
which model did oyu had?
the prologue cannot be compared with the dialogue....

 

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