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I have a digital stylus force gauge and a cheap alignment protractor on order and they should arrive this week.
The protractor was $14.95 from LPGear.com but I'm wondering if such a simple "universal" protractor will be sufficient for my Technics SL1200mkII.
I read the review here on the Asylum about the MINT protractor (that has to be ordered from Hong Kong). The MINT is designed for your specific table and arm and costs $110. There's another one that Michael Fremer uses in his TT setup DVD video. I think it's called a Wallytractor, also custom for a specific table and arm. I believe this one is $150, at least according to an old online Stereophile review.
So my question is, what will a $110 to $150 "custom" protractor do that cannot be done with a $14.95 protractor from LPGear?
Did I waste $14.95 on this protractor:
Follow Ups:
...and square the cart up with the headshell, you're 90% there. Get a Stevenson protractor, maybe tape a mechanical pencil lead to the front of your cart and verify that it's lined up. All this assuming your cantilever is in line with the edges of the cart etc.
I really think people go overboard on this cartridge alignment stuff.
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"Some velvet morning when I'm straight..."
I used the supplied overhang tool so that distance is about right and I squared up the cartridge in the headshell.
The setup sounds pretty good to me but I'm in this "learning mode" so I figured I would "practice" with the budget Technics TT, a low cost cartridge, and a protractor to see how close it's aligned. If I mess up I won't be breaking a mega buck system. This is my TT setup on training wheels. ;-)
Thanks.
All the protractors, if set to give a standard alignment and used correctly, will give exactly the same results. They have been doing that long before Wally and Mint were around.
The one you bought is about the same as many that are available free.
IMO the easiest to use are those that you point to the arm pivot first, and that have a mirror in the base so that you can align the stylus rather than the cartridge. The only such one being made these days that is also inexpensive is the turntablebasics.com one.
Mel
Does my Technics SL1200mkII have a "standard" or "oversized" spindle ?
According to http://turntablebasics.com
Standard Spindle Hole (0.282 inches/7.163 mm)
Oversized Spindle Hole (0.288 inches/7.315 mm)
My SL-1200 Mk2 has a standard spindle that measures 0.281-inches.
.
Thanks Mel
I had forgotten that they make an inexpensive mirrored protractor. Just what the doctor ordered
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
...I'll play with it and see what can be done to align my cartridge. If nothing else, I'll get some practice and experience some frustration first hand. ;-)
I'll have a look at the downloadable one from Ken Willis, too.
Thanks everyone!
If you want to try a downloadable protractor, the best one I've ever come across is at ConradHoffman.com. It is actually an very small program that runs from any folder you place it in. It allows printing out LofgrenA/Baerwald, Lofgren B, and Stevenson alignments. You can adjust the inner & outer groove radii to DIN or IEC standards. "Typical" and custom groove radii are also available. The program even has 200mm reference lines which print out on x and y axis so you can check and verify your printer is printing exactly to scale. If not, the program can be adjusted to compensate for your printer. The program also prints out the best home-made strobe discs which can use the printer adjustment function to vary the size of the disc. Very cool. Disc even has a radial line which can be used to count 100 revolutions in a 3 minute period to calculate your percentage of speed error. Please read the ENTIRE readme file before using program. If you keep scrolling down there is a TON of info and useful tips there. Have fun!
I'm just curious as to why it is inferior to the downloadable ones especially? BTW, thanks to Conrad Hoffman for the downloadable protractors.
Now I can understand where a mirrored one would be preferable. I can understand where the Feikart may be superior in getting my Origin Live arm mounted precisely. But what is wrong with the laminated spindle mount protractor other than ease of use?
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
...that use the same alignment calculcations and see if they all agree with your setup - TB, the one included with the Hi-Fi News LP, a printed one, etc. They probably won't all agree, simply because there is too much error in the setup *process* (there is nothing wrong with the protractors themselves). It's the process that induces too much error.
Now print an arc protractor from Conrad's tool (with a very accurate Pivot-to-Spindle measurement), and go to work. I bet when you're done, all the universal protractors will agree, and then you'll offer to give them away (just as I am with my TB protractor).
There is no magic in the tools themselves. You can crank out an arc protractor in MS Visio in about 10 minutes (see above). It's all about the accuracy of a repeatable process. An arc protractor simply fixes a greater number of variables compared with a universal protractor.
I have printed out one of Conrad's protractors and there is a difference. Though the alignment seems spot on, the point is different by a very small amount. This was from a casual observance without measurements. However the point on both nulls are towards the spindle by the same amount on Conrad"s (I believe).
Like John, I have used my ortofon protractor for years without any groove distortion. But I have wondered if there are errors in the setup process of the various manufacturers of these protractors. I'll be setting up a new TT in a few days and will check with both
Thanks
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
...your printer is printing to scale. Yes, this sounds obvious, but unless you pull out a ruler and make sure the horizonal and verical scaling is exact, a printable protractor is less than worthless.
The place to measure is from the center of the spindle hole to each null-point. That's the only measurement that counts. As long as you are within +/- 1-mm, you'll be just fine.
Good luck,
John Elison
It's best to measure a (for example) 200 mm line across the bottom of the page, and a (for example) 250 mm line across the side. The longer lines will exaggerate the scaling issues of the printer, and make for a more accurate printed protractor.
This is mostly for those who see a country mile of difference between the etched lines of the Mint protractor and lines generated from a printer.
It is a universal protractor and if used properly, it will provide just as accurate an alignment as any other protractor regardless of price. Furthermore, there is really no reason other than human error that two different protractors with identical null-points should ever disagree with each other.
One of the big problems with cartridge alignment is that just a very small error changes the null-point alignment significantly. Consequently, cartridge alignment is a tedious and time-consuming business. However, once it is accomplished correctly, the cartridge stays in alignment until it is changed.
Another reason that cartridge alignment is so difficult on most tonearms is because most tonearms are designed with variable effective length in order to set overhang. This usually is implemented with mounting slots for the cartridge to be moved forward and backward in the headshell and this allows the offset angle to change unintentionally when moving the cartridge. It's just a real laborious process to get it right. At least I sure had a heck of time with my new Technics SL-1200.
I've been spoiled for the past 30 years because I've always used SME tonearms, which are designed with a variable mounting distance and fixed effective length. In my opinion, they are very easy to align because the cartridge can be tightened down in the headshell at exactly the correct offset angle while the tonearm base is moved backward and forward very precisely with a rack-and-pinion mechanism. My SME tonearm can be aligned in a matter of minutes with any type of protractor. In fact, it is just as easy to align a SME properly with a universal protractor as with an arc protractor. However, for other tonearms with variable effective length, an arc protractor is faster and less prone to error.
Best regards,
John Elison
I disagree John.... The Mint has lines that are very accurate and thin. You can't align a cartridge with thick lines since the line itself has too much error. You can't align a cartridge with a downloaded protractor because printers are not accurate. The Mint protractor is quite a large step closer to perfection.
The Mint protractor is a waste of money as far as I'm concerned. I've been aligning cartridges very accurately for years with paper protractors. I have never had a problem with inner groove distortion or sibilance. However, if you feel you must spend a hundred dollars to be happy, I say go for it. Enjoy and be happy.
Best regards,
John Elison
With that grid, you're counting on this being the case, in order to get your offset angle correct, because you're aligning the cart body with the grid. My recent experience mounting my Ortofon 2M Blue, using the WallyTractor LousyTourist mentions below, was quite an eye opener.
This is because the cantilever was a little bit twisty, and off center, as they so often are, these days. The WallyTractor has you align the CANTILEVER of the cart with three parallel lines he's etched into the two null points, not the cartridge body. You then check it at two other places of maximum error...he wants you to SEE that the cantilever is deviating as it 'should', at these points. So, you have a total of 4 places to check, for offset angle. It is the most exhaustive, rigorous protractor I know for this parameter. When I had aligned the cantilever to be parallel at the the two null points, the cart body was a little 'off' ...noticably so.
I resisted the urge to 'fix' it, and there's no arguing with the results.
It is set correctly. Now I wish I had something like that for azimuth as well, because I set that with a bubble level. But since the cantilever is a bit twisted, that isn't correct, as confirmed by HiFi News Test Record track for azimuth. I'm afraid to dink with it, because I'm afraid I'll make it worse. Wally makes a widget for that too, but I don't have it, and knowing his casualness with orders, not likely I ever will now. And yes, LousyTourist is right. You HAVE to have at least 2 protractors and test records, the better to induce terminal audiophilia nervosa when they don't agree with each other, because they usually won't.
There is a line that runs straight through the stylus point and other parallel lines close to it. I haven't seen the Walley tractor but I'm asuming these lines are present on it too. I am not doubting that the wally tractor is easier to use. But with good magnification this protractor isn't real hard to use either. My preference would be a mirrored one. But at $15 this protractor isn't bad IMO
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
Have a hell of a time quite frankly even with the WallyTractor, using the cheapo magnifying glass he throws in with it. Those damn little lines are TINY, and it's HARD to get close enough to get the focal length of the glass appropriate. Sigh....woulda been easy, when I was 19.
and my 'last' one was a (is a?) Wallytractor. Can't advise buying one due to his lackadaisical business practices, but damn he makes a fine protractor.
The political problem of mankind is to combine three things: economic efficiency, social justice and individual liberty.
-- John Maynard Keynes
they don't agree with each other - audiophile angst to the MAX! :-D
...but don't feel bad - we all did it at one time or another. I have a TB protractor that I've offered for free in another protractor thread, and I've yet to receive a PM about it. I think I'll keep suggesting Conrad's protractor, but offering the TB to the next person who e-mails me about it. I'm curious how long it will take before I can give the thing away.
Do some searching about the Wallytractor before ordering. The Mint protractor is a legit product, but it is a bit pricy.
I keep mine for the mirror. I used it to look behind my components when plugging and unplugging interconnects.
Best regards,
John Elison
Not a waste of money at all. I have an ortofon which is probably the same as yours. I've used it on several tables. I'm pretty sure it is a Lofgren A / Baerwald geometry. Yeah, i'd like to have a mirrored protractor, but this one does the trick for me
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
You did waste $14.95, but that's nothing. You have probably wasted more of your time with it compared to the waste of the cost of it. I'd contact Kwillis on this board and get his protractor. I've had two Mint's and Ken sent me his protractor which is similar arc based in PDF format and I just printed to scale and laminated it, rather than actually buying his deluxe manufactured protractor. I'd prefer his own product instead of the PDF, but the PDF worked so well I didn't bother. I think Ken's protractor is half the cost of the Mint, and he draws it with 3 or 4 of your favorite arm based geometries on it, so in my mind it is a better buy by a long ways. I believe the conrad hoffman arc based protractor mentioned below, printed to scale and laminated would be great too. I also agree that arc protractors (drawn to the spec's of your arm) are just fantastic and better than universal protractors. Very easy to use to, and very accurate.
Edits: 10/12/09 10/12/09
Great protactor and a great guy. This forum is lucky to have him around.
Dan
I've tried a Wallytractor on my JMW and the one from Ken Willis is much more flexible (4 arcs on mine) and easy to use. Not to mention a heck of a lot cheaper.
Providing you know the pivot to spindle distance on your table/arm combo, simply go here:
http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm
and download Conrad Hoffmans excellent protractor generator.
Fully capable of customization and various alignment protocols. It might not be quite as good as the Mint, but it is close and it is free.
Once you use an arc protractor you will never go back to what you ordered from LP Gear, that is unless you don't know the mounting distance, in which case the $15 you spent was worth it.
But you'll align much more quickly and accurately with Conrad's. My suggestion is to, once you have settled on type of alignment (Stevenson, Lofgren A or B), print the protractor on high quality paper, take it and have it laminated and then simply tape it to a scrap record to be used when you want to align.
Total cost, a couple of bucks for lamination.
Thanks once again to Conrad for providing such a great protractor generator.
Agree with all you said, and especially the big thanks to Conrad.
"dammit"
If you want to take it to the next level, print it out on a clear piece of film and place atop a mirror (that is similar in thickness to an LP).
.
"dammit"
`
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
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