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I’ve sold a couple records and used my best judgment on condition
And sound quality… I have sat and listened to the record all the way through with pen and paper noting anything that doesn't sound right. How do you inspect a record before selling it? What's your method or
Routine. Any help would be great.
Thanks!Tom
Follow Ups:
Visual grading (what most dealers and ebay sellers use):-- Look at the record in SUNLIGHT if possible, and if not, under a very strong incandescent (not halogen or flourescent) lamp
-- First look at the label around the hole. Are there spindle marks caused by a careless person putting the record down fast and then moving it around until it slips on the spindle? If so, there is a 90% chance that the record will not play mint, no matter how the vinyl looks. Always mention spindle marks in an ad. Also if you see spindle marks and the vinyl looks clean, then play the record (see play grading below)
-- Now look at the vinyl. do you see:
• dirt?
• scuffs? (mostly caused by being slid in and out of a paper or cardboard sleeve)
• light marks?
• gouges?
• scratches?
• mold?
Each of these needs to be noted in your description.• Does the record have overall "gloss" and "shine" like a brand-new LP, or does it appear dull and worn? A huge clue to the condition of the record.
-- Finally, tilt the vinyl so you're looking at it almost from the edge of the record. If you don't have good close vision, use reading glasses. Are the light marks or scratches still visible? If not, these are "surface marks" or "hairlines" and probably won't sound on most turntables. You need to mention this as well. While you're at it, inspect the record to see that it's not warped.
-- Remember to check both sides fully!
• Play grading (this is far preferable to visual grading, but has the defect that you need to play all the way through... probably best to grade visually, and then play "problem spots". Always play records with spindle marks even if the vinyl looks clean. Most dealers and sellers of large collections do not have time to play grade. Always specify if you've play graded. It makes a big difference to a smart buyer.)
-- Play the record from the beginning of track 1 on side 1. This is usually where the most damage has occurred. (If it's a pop record, it might be right at the "hit track".) Do the same for track 1 on side 2.
-- Then spotcheck at various trouble spots, or just randomly throughout the record
-- You will be listening for:
• crackle (general noise between tracks and during silent passages)
• pops
• scratches that repeat throughout a song (these are highly annoying and should bring down any record 2 grades)
• skips (these are extremely rare on turntables that track correctly... of course not everyone has a decent turntable)
• jumps (usually caused by a piece of crud ingrained into a groove -- removable with care)
• pitch instability -- usually caused by warpage
• "edge warps" -- hard to see by just looking at an LP, since it's a tiny little (but often severe) warp that occurs near the edge in one place. These are actually much more damaging than general warpage. Best way to see is by playing the record and crouching down to see the edge as it spins. The tonearm will go up and down noticeably as it tracks (or fails to track) the edgewarp. Edgewarps are a major cause of skipping.Grading:
DO: Use the Goldmine (US) or Record Collector (UK) grading system. Here are the grades that I use:
• M basically doesn't exist. A new, sealed record. (Also SS)
• M- a clean used record that plays without any noise (though may need cleaning). Has gloss and shine. (Also NM)
• VG+ plays fine but has some small defects that don't detract from enjoyment. No pops, but maybe a little crackle that could clean up with a good record cleaner. Has lost gloss but doesn't look totally dull.
• VG has occasional pops or crackles, acceptable in pop records, problematic in classical records
• VG- has many defects, including possibly a repeating skip, general crackle, but listenable for pop, rock, techno, rap, Latin etc. The surface of the record is dull from repeated usage.
• G is noisy but plays all the way through. A trial to listen to. Some people might want to buy these because they're good deals (probably 5-10% of the mint price) or to fill holes in their collection.* The lower grades Fair and Poor (or Poor and Bad) are rarely used, except for monster, monster rarities (like private pressings of 99 copies from the '60s or '70s) where a collector needs a copy to hold him over till he can find a mint one.
DO: Grade the cover too using the above grades! Conventionally the cover is graded first with a slash between. For example, M-/M- means mint cover, mint vinyl. Cover defects to watch out for: split seams (a HUGE liability for most collectors), sticker residue (removable), sticker tear (not reparable), writing on cover, writing on back cover, writing on label, cut-out hole, cut corner, ringwear (where the raised groove around the label or around the edge of the LP has caused like wear on the jacket), etc. There are common abbreviations for most of these: stckr, WOC, WOL, COH, CC, RW etc.
DO: Specify what grading system you're using, and do specify that you're a strict grader. This gives the consumer confidence against all the grading shysters out there. For example: "All records strictly visually graded using the Goldmine system."
DO: Buy the Goldmine and Record Collector Price Guides (both from Amazon) if you're going to do this a lot. They will give you much guidance, specifying their grading systems in more detail than mine, and giving you guidance as to price and rarity too.
DON'T: Use extra minuses and pluses or parentheses when grading. A grade like VG+(++) means nothing. It's just bullshit on the part of the dealer. I know a dealer who gets away with murder on his overpriced stock because he plays around with so many qualifiers.
DON'T: Use inexact language. Conventions exist for record grading: use those instead. "A very STRONG VG+" confuses the issue. "Looks clean, just a few scratches" is a nightmare -- could mean anything.
DON'T: Use the grade EX. This is an intermediary grade that's supposed to be between M- and VG+, but in fact almost always means VG+ and not M-. Even though the Record Collector guide sanctions it (and you'll find it more with British and Continental dealers), I believe that EX is not normally used to the benefit of the buyer. Again, it confuses the issue.
Hope this helps! Post with more questions if you have them. I've been buying, selling and trading records for 20 years (no, I'm not a dealer -- just a collector.)J!
Last week I found a record that I’ve been looking for.
The item condition is as follows….-----------------------------------------------------------
Cover looks good- back has some ringwear. Also the previous owner taped the corners to prevent splitting and wrote her name in pen on the back. Vinyl has a couple minor scuffs that should not interfere with play; looks clean.
-----------------------------------------------------------That's all I had to go by...
I emailed the seller 3 days ago about the couple minor scuffs... the auction ended today. I asked if they had played through the scuffs to listen for skips... they said they will Friday and email me.. Friday was the last day of the auction. So they lost my bid.
Me being a total rookie would play a record all the way through... especially if the record was rare like this one. But like you have said... "Rare records can be trashed" & maybe they didn’t have the time?
Your first post will be very helpfull for me!
Thanks again for the time.
Tom-
As J notes, a description like that is definitely a red flag. OTOH, this seller goes out of their way to specifically describe several flaws of the jacket. A seller who at least makes an effort to describe problems is a good sign, in my experience.I've purchased a number of records with descriptions like that and it worked out fine. It depends on the seller.
One thing is for sure, with a description like that, you must be willing to take pretty much whatever you get and write it off if it's not that great (unless totally unplayable). So don't bid too high. But on a rare item, this may be MUCH cheaper than a copy that is meticulously graded and described. There are a number of buyers like J who only want items with the best descriptions (and I'm not criticizing that) and they will definitely drive the price up. I've gotten some real bargains on things where the description was lacking and hence the item drew few bids, even though it's in demand. So it's up to you. Just be smart about it.
What bugs me more than vague or non-standard grading is stuff that is listed as mint or NM (iow, they know the buzzwords) and it arrives as junk!
If they're off half a grade, ok, maybe that's just a difference of opinion. If they're off a full grade, that's not good. If they're off one and a half or more, that's a ripoff. I got several of those this week. Grrrr!
Some weeks eBay is great. Some weeks it sucks. This was mostly not a good week. But it is still so much cheaper than dealers...
fwiw, ymmv, etc.
Out of curiousity, what is this record you're searching for?
That's hilarious -- exactly the kind of auction I'd skip over. I'd MUCH rather pay more money and get something that's mint. Always.And people who don't know how to describe records usually don't know records.
Check people's other auctions and recent feedback to see if they sell mainly records, or if they mainly sell other stuff and have a record or three mixed in.
Glad to be of help.
J!
I once purchased 6 or 8 LPs in one group. Seller listed them as "mint", covers and vinyl. I didn't pay much for the bunch, and fortunately, the "mint" did apply to the one piece I really wanted. Two of the other covers were a bit scuffed up, but the vinyl was okay, not mint, but VG++. The rest were pretty trashed. A few covers looked like they had been floor tiles at Grand Central Station.Wrote the guy a scathing email. Offered to give my money back, but I wanted the three better pieces. Not worth the time or trouble to send the rest back. He actually phoned me to apologize. His area was jewelry and coins, and was just selling some LPs he came across. I was lucky on two fronts. He was a lucky guesser on the one I wanted worst, and he was really concerned about his ebay reputation.
"Lies, Damn Lies, and Audio Specifications"
Not that I'd buy anything by old Cliff, but as he couldn't 'spel prapelie' on a few items I thought I'd see what sort of seller he was!!!
What's so awful about it? Because it doesn't conform to Goldmine standards? So what? Goldmine is not the end-all and be-all. I read that particular description as: pretty darn nice, but not quite nice enough to call NM.If you examine his feedback, this guy is obviously a record specialist. His other customers make specific comments about condition of what they received. By comparing that to the auction listings themselves, it seems that the records are very nice.
He has a total feedback/unique feedback ratio of 3/2, which means he has a lot of repeat customers. Always a good sign. Neutral-neg ratio of about 1%, which is acceptable imo, although it's important to examine the entries.
2 neutrals, one with just question marks, and one from another seller. So I wouldn't count either of those. One neg, a complaint from a buyer, but this looks like a clash of personalities/expectations imo.
Some people can't spell. Some can't seem to turn caps lock off. Some can't seem to find the caps key at all. Some don't know the difference between it's and its or you're and your. None of this says anything about their trustworthiness ime.
All in all, I don't see any reason to expect problems here. This looks like a good seller. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them. Not that I ever have; it's got to be something pretty special for me to go overseas.
Just imo.
J!I'm curious as to why you eschew halogen lighting while advocating sunlight. I've been under the impression that halogen lighting is closer to natural sunlight than any other common lighting source. Have I been misinformed?
BrianE
Hi Brian,I don't know, it's just personal experience. I'm sure halogen is close to sunlight (I have a few halogen lamps in my house), but in my experience, sun reveals things that halogen doesn't pick up.
And so, strangely, do normal high-intensity incandescent bulbs.
I don't know what it is -- I can't explain it. But for some reason, halogen lamps are not as revealing for me in examining vinyl. Could be my lamps, I suppose.
Patrick
This focusses the light on the record better, trying to grade in a sunny room is hopeless as no direct light source. All bright sunshine does is make light dusty marks look bad & not show more serious ones as clearly.Grading under a fluorescent light which you oddly find in many record shops & fairs is terrible as the light is so diffused. It can make VG records look EX, until you get them home & wish you'd not have bothered!
Also the light bulb reflecting on the vinyl shows up warps better as the light is distorted on the mild warps that you might otherwise miss.
Another thing I use a lot when checking records out is to use a jewellers loupe (eye glass) with 10X magnification to have a good look at those scratches to see how bad they really are! You can tell then if the scratch/mark is 'repairable'or it's best left alone.
I now have visions of record shops full of squinting vinyl fans wobbling the records around to find a good light source!! :oD
Some nice ideas, but realistically all people gauge is how marked the surface is and grade it ex, vg etc. Label/cover faults beyond the grade should be shown, ie 2" cover tear, sticker on label etc.In 15 years I have never seen anyone grade their vinyl that meticulously, sound rarely gets a mention, most arrive dirty & dusty in need of some TLC.
Sometimes you see 'bad scratch/scuff, plays fine' which means it allegedly plays thru without skipping, whether it makes a loud click or rip noise is another thing.
I've had 'clean vg' arrive dirty and dusty with label marks. Which part was 'clean' I wonder, apart from their getaway with my money?
Another point is the dealers who state 'looks vg, plays perfectly, no crackle'. Yeah, right! If you use a cheapo portable player you may mask the noise, but playing on proper hi-fi you'll be deafened with the noise! Records I could happily listen to just a few years back have shown themselves to be too noisy as I've got better hifi, so playing grades are not valid IMO, apart from more obvious clicks due to scratches, or warps etc causing skipping.
Unfortunately a lot of collectors, especially in the UK expect perfect unplayed 30-50 year old records and will not even consider an EX (or US vg++) grade. These unrealistic expectations lead to overgrading, but that's another story....
There are reputable dealers out there who do indeed spend time grading vinyl like this. Play-grading is VERY rare (except to check a possible visual flaw to see if it is significant), but really, the visual grading I outlined above takes about 15-30 seconds for an experienced dealer or collector.As for condition, I buy on ebay and from mail order dealers all the tiem. You rapidly get to know who's careful and who's not, and it's the former who get my business. You also learn to "read between the lines" and figure out what you will be getting.
With few exceptions, I do not get burned buying online using the seller's grading descriptions. As I said, if you get a seller who says something is VG+(++), or "VG but plays clean all the way through", or worst of all, "record looks great considering its age".... well, you'll get what you pay for!
Caveat emptor.
J!
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Thanks very much for the Outstanding info... it's exactly what I was looking for. I'll get the book you were mentioning in your post.
To bad you were not selling!Have a great day!
Bolt
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