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Finally stopped and discussed this with the local tech and his recommendation is belt drive Sony, Yamaha, or Pioneer.
Confirms my ears, saying B&O TT can't reproduce a soundstage,
AND, that he's not a Dual fan because of the idler drive. One
of two local Techs that have been working on high-end stuff for
more than twenty five years, including warranty work, so
he knows his stuff. HELP!
Follow Ups:
I rip out anything related to the auto mechanism. That is, the parts that are not riveted in!
I think the Dual arms are excellent by any measure, although they have to be used with high compliance cartridges. But that's the problem. I cannot think of any high compliance cartridges. Maybe the Shure 97 is one.
That's what I did to "minty" pioneer belt drive table at a local pawn shop. Could of had it for $30, but I went and bought a dual instead. Agreed, they are mid-fi. But towards the high side depending on table. I'm very happy with the sound of my CS 5000 and it has a nice soundstage with an AT440MLa on it. It might not stack up against a $4000 table, but my ears don't know that.Also, what been said several times below; listen and get what appeals to you.
I am not an " audiophile". I am a musician. I know what instraments, voices and halls sound like. No audio/electronics tech tells me what sounds good. It only matters what you think sounds good unless you have another agenda- status, impressing people, getting attention for your "killer" system, etc...... I will not say what I think you should do, because it does not matter what I think! You need to listen and decide for yourself! If you can not hear big differences that matter to you, do not feel bad about it. Find some music you like, listen and enjoy. For some folks the stuff is all about equipment- to me, it is all about the music.
... it's everything else :-P
Too durn complicated. Overbuilt/overengineered for the job at hand. Never cared for any of them: idler, belt, or DD. I own a 1019, but only for sentimental value (it was given to us by a good friend).b&o? Well, I use a b&o TX-2 in the living room. If nothing else, it tracks well. Given what I have invested in it, it's pretty good.
Yamaha, Sony, and Pioneer? With, as others have said, a very few exceptions, this is a pretty lackluster bunch. If you must have a massmarket Japanese TT, Your average Technics were probably better than most of the offerings of the aforementioned three.
JVC actually made some darn nice tt's in the late 1970's (available with or without arms), albeit DD.
(sigh) I don't get the impression this guy 'knows his stuff'. I just refurbished a Dual 1219 idler wheel drive TT and, even in its original crappy plinth, it's a formidable TT IMHO. The hollow spindle and the auto mechanics are not ideal. AFAIK there are no new stylii and carts for B&O TT, that's a disadvantage. Soundsmith does B&O retips, do the search.
A Pioneer Pl-12D is a good and dirt cheap starter TT. They made a few higher end DD TT but like all big Jap DD's they are fetching high prices. The better 70s Sony TT are in demand as well. So there are no real bargains here. Besides the drive system and the tone arms are all electronics, servo motors etc.
Good Duals are 1019/1219/1229 idler wheel drive, 700 series DD, 505/5000/1249 beltdrives.
"The torture never stops"
I listen to my Dual 1229 with Shure V15 III/VN35MR(new) as much as my Thorens TD124 with Sonus Arm and AT14s (new stylus). I also have a Dual 506 Belt drive with Ortofon TK55 cartridge that was pretty darn nice for what it cost. JMHO. Good Luck
Gary
I have recently had a beat up DUAL 1216 with an old stylus that was surprisingly pleasant unlike a Sony, a Pioneer and a newer dual 606w ith a fresh stylus. I wasn't comparing but the dual just stood out. I don't remember the models of the Japanese because I wasn't comparing but the sound was poor enought to not want to bother comparing. The old Dual idler was actually nice to listen to.
he knows his stuff.I don't think so. First, he recommends some lackluster Japanese junk...with the rare exception of a scant few models he has most likely never seen. Second, he dismisses idlers with his reason being that he doesn't like them. Obviously, he doesn't know anything about idlers. Then, he fails to mention direct driven turntables at all. There are idler and direct drive turntables that handily beat anything ever produced by Pioneer, Yamaha or Sony. For the large part, those three companies concentrated their efforts on producing low and mid-fi equipment. I suspect that is equipment he works on, too.
That tech's information isn't very dependable, in my opinion.
First, define ' mid-fi '. Dual and Thorens are ' mid-fi '
when compared to a $4000 TT. There are a lot of people on this forum that compare the Jap stuff favorably to those two. I didn't
say he didn't mention DD; he did, and doesn't like them for the same reason half the inmates and the top end manufacturers don't;
motor noise. To say that there are DD tables that beat the three
Jap models mentioned is a broad statement; name a few, that's what this forum is about, right? And belittling someone who
spends 10-12 hours a day repairing everything from Mac to mish-mash
and for decades at that is pretty much self explanatory. Everyone has an opinion, and I value them all; there are a dozen cartridges and nearly as many arms discussed here, and if there was
a universally perfect solution, we could all find better thingsd to do. I take all opinions and weigh them and try to find an average
best solution to my price point. When I mentioned B&O to the tech,
that's where he went, opinions on mid-fi. I'll ask about the
idler thing when I see him next.
Ron,Direct drives? Denon DP100M, EMT 948, any Goldmund, and a bonus one....the Rockport Technologies System III Sirius.
Weigh it for what it is worth. I don't personally mind if you get a Pioneer...in whatever flavor.
What the hell do the TT you mentioned have to do with mid-fi $2-$300
units? Your credibility drops with every post.
...you come off as a low-rent idiot.*
quote: PanzerIV...
What the hell do the TT you mentioned have to do with mid-fi $2-$300
units? Your credibility drops with every post.If you can somehow manage to remember three posts ago, you said that high-end manufacturers don't like direct drive turntables. You brought that market segment into the mix, not I. I was merely reminding you of what you said earlier, and providing some examples that prove you wrong. Apparently, your attention span is fairly short.
So, to refresh your memory in a more immediate way, you said...
quote: PanzerIV...
I didn't say he didn't mention DD; he did, and doesn't like them for the same reason half the inmates and the top end manufacturers don'tBy the way, one popular direct drive mid-fi turntable is the Technics 1200 Series. It is highly regarded by many. I suggest that you write it down.
-mosin
*I prescribe for PanzerIV an absolute minimum of 12 grams of Piracetam daily. ;)
I can see I need to be very patient with someone who smokes un-taxed
cigarettes, since you're obviously having difficulty functioning
on this plane. Slowly...........; The conversation with the tech begins with a question about a B&O. The tech offers several opinions. The B&O has a problem with producing an accurate soundstage. He assumes I'm interested in mid-fi equipment, so
offers that he doesn't like older Duals with the idler drive. Reason
at this point unknown, since I didn't ask. He suggests Sony, Pioneer, and Yamaha. He then tells me that the BEST option is a
manual belt drive, and as an example as to why, points out that most high end brands use that system. What is the inconsistancy
you are trying to illuminate? And as to referencing past posts,
I've already mentioned the Technics 1200mk II
I can see I need to be very patient with someone who smokes un-taxed
cigarettes, since you're obviously having difficulty functioning
on this plane.When dealing with idiots, I do have trouble functioning at the top of my game. I admit it, so there.
Some of those cigarettes would come in handy about now...for sure. LOL
Slowly...........; The conversation with the tech begins with a question about a B&O. The tech offers several opinions. The B&O has a problem with producing an accurate soundstage. He assumes I'm interested in mid-fi equipment...
I may have underestimated your tech at the outset because I also believe that you are a mid-fi guy...at best.
offers that he doesn't like older Duals with the idler drive. Reason
at this point unknown, since I didn't ask.Maybe he thought you wouldn't be able to work one of those.
He suggests Sony, Pioneer, and Yamaha. He then tells me that the BEST option is a manual belt drive, and as an example as to why, points out that most high end brands use that system.
Well, maybe he was right because you do seem to be a guy who would gravitate towards the ten dollar end of audio. Get a Pioneer. They are great!
What is the inconsistancy [SIC] you are trying to illuminate?
I am not trying to illuminate any; I did illuminate them.
And as to referencing past posts, I've already mentioned the Technics 1200mk II
Well, write it down, so you won't forget.
Good B&O's produce an accurate soundstage. More accurate in fact than nearly any other table I have heard!However, the Micro's are a little better at it.
My BL-51/Grace 707 MKII, when fitted with a Sound-Smith B&O SMMC-2 comes just within shouting distance of my RX 5000 Air/MAX-282 tonearm with its Accuphase AC-1 cartridge!
Ofcourse, my RX is a world apart in what it does better, but I could probably live with my BL/Grace/B&O setup forever.
Those names ring any bells?
Henry
Second, he dismisses idlers with his reason being that he doesn't like them. Obviously, he doesn't know anything about idlers.do you think that intelligent people can decide they prefer turntables that are not idlers to idlers? i'm not sure your conclusion logically follows the prior statement.
unless you are saying that someone who dismisses ANY technology out of hand is suspect....
i just worry about the idler-as-religion.
(for the record, i've heard some idlers that did some great stuff and others that were lackluster.)
I do not understand the idler craze. I thought they were done away with by their proponents because of their inherently higher rumble, especially when the rubber ages and is less compliant.
I don't want to argue about this as to each his own.
I always liked Lenco and even PE tables and would certainly not turn my back on one that was in good shape.
...agreed on the point about the rubber aging. i think the proponents argue that a modern idler -- or one brought up to modern standards -- can sound very good.to my ear, that can be true. they can also sound quite colored.
i find this to be true for just about any technology, though. there are good idlers & bad, good DDs & bad, good belt drives & bad.
i can see the appeal when spending little-to-no $ on an old idler & restoring it. when you get to the $20k idlers (shindo), it's less a value proposition.
at that level of investment, there are ALOT of choices that sound very, very good (and some that sound flat-out awful, too!).
money doesn't always equate to taste, style, or good sound. :(
unless you are saying that someone who dismisses ANY technology out of hand is suspect....That is exactly what I was saying. While it is true that I use an idler driven turntable, keep in mind that I have also commented favorably on belt driven models that I have used in the past. And, only the foolhardy would dismiss a properly executed direct drive turntable. What you can feel free to dismiss is the mid-fi garbage of yesteryear. That's why you can pick one up on any given day for peanuts. They go by a variety of names...including Sony, Pioneer and Yamaha...which is not to say that all turntables by those names are bad...just 98% of them.
I'm have zero idler experience so won't comment on that, but why your dealer would recommend that crap is beyond me. As an old B&O user I agree that the soundstage is less than stellar. I would definitely look elsewhere (as in another dealer perhaps) or do some research on this board.
Actually, their only half right, as a good B&O with a healthy cartridge produces an accurate soundstage. Most audiophiles prefer an extremely wide and deep one.Only the very best tables from Sony, Yamaha, and Pioneer are truly competant hi-end performers. Only a small number of these tables were exported, and demand a rather high price on the market today.
My Micro Seiki recommendations stand. Most of the affordable ones are superior than nearly anything the 3 companies above have produced.
If your are concerned about reliability, and prefer an affordable manual table, the BL-51 to 91 are best. They even perform well against expensive legendary models.
There may be a few other options. How much you are looking to spend?
Well, remember, I discussed a B&O with this tech, and he gave opinions based on TT in that general level of competance. I believe
his problem with the idlers had to do with repair issues, not sonics, but I'll clear up the several quetions raised here next time I see him. Again, he recommended manual belt drives as
being the best option after mentioning the Sony, Pioneer, and
Yamaha. The Micro is indeed a good looking unit, but I still
have to point out that almost every post I read through out the
community advises that parts are a problem. Cost? Anywhere from
$300 - $500 with a decent cartridge, assuming another $50 - $70
for a tune-up. Those who feel this tech is under qualified should
contact ' The Speaker Shop ' @ 716 837 1557 and Mcintosh and let them
know that they are doing the local Audiophiles a diservice by
recommending him or refering warranty work his way.
There are a few Micro's that need to be serviced as they age, primarily some of the automated ones as well as the ones with air bearings.However, most of them DO NOT. These table's are designed to last indefinitely. They are most thoroughly designed, use hi/mil-spec parts as well as the best bearings in the business.
I had a B&O for years and I would not recommend them. B&O's commonly have trouble with their bass. Soundstage? who cares when you can't get down to 25Hz or so.
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