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I just received an new Ortofon Rondo Blue from a dealer. This was a replacement for another new one I sent back because the stylus was angled a few degrees to the left and had a bit of a twist.The replacement doesn't have the twist, but the stylus still isn't parallel to the body.
Is this normal? I haven't had this issue with any other cartridge I have purchased.
Follow Ups:
I've had this problem with both Shure and Audio-Technica cartridges. They replaced the stylus for free on more than one occasion because of, and I quote, a "manufacturer's defect". I don't see why you should look the other way when it comes to shoddy quality control.
this is normal. even the best come out this way. for verification, give Musical Surroundings a call.
The cantilever is supposed to be straight. Sure, there are some tolerances but they should not be clearly visible.I have seen many cartridges by many manufacturers, dozens of Denons, and only an AT 0C9 had a cantilever which wasn't straight. It went right back to the dealer.
BTW: if the cantilever is not straight the marking on the cartridge body (which many carts have, e.g. Denon DL-103), which is supposed to help you find the groove without looking at the stylus itself, doesn't make any sense.Don't accept shoddy work. If Denon can do it with its great but inexpensive 103s then all manufacturers should be able to do it. There is absolutely no excuse for an obvious misalignment.
a skewed cantilever does not mean it is misaligned. please feel free to contact any major cartridge manuacturer. the caveat is that if you have an el cheapo with an aluminum shaft, that is unacceptable. a skewed boron or diamond canitlever is not necessarily a bad cartridge. if necessary, educate yourself and contact a source directly, place a call to Musical Surrounding, the US Distributor for many high end cartridges. 501-547-5006.
Send it back and ask your dealer to suggest a brand with better quality control. I'm like you in that I've never experienced this issue before, and wouldn't want to get used to it.I've only been around regular carts, owning a string of shures, Audio Tech, and a couple of others, and have sold a bunch of carts to help out at Christmas, in my younger days. All passed basic cosmetic tests, and the ones I owned were inspected carefully for assembly correctness. Optical comparators are the best for this, but microscopes also do the job. A simple high powered glass will get you pretty far.
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Given that these are represented as high precision items, with costs to match, I would reject any that were not satisfactory upon inspection. Perhaps discussing your expectations with your dealer before selecting a product would be a productive way to go. Perhaps your dealer would offer a more suitable selection knowing that you actually care and check to see what you get for your hard earned money. Or perhaps he might invest in your happiness by checking the product he sends you. A dealer in expensive carts should probably have a microscope or suitable inspection equipment.The fact that some companies build shoddy stuff and charge 12 prices for it, does not make it an acceptable practice, unless you want it to be. I have heard that Ortofon is affordable, to it's credit.
Find a brand that cares about build quality, or go along with the Hi Fi mumbo jumbo that passes for clear thought in some circles.
Obviously these carts are not designed with twisted or crooked parts, or to mount up off center. The fact that they are presented to you, the consumer, with deviations from the build plan can be expected at lower price points.
But the parts are not really what you are buying, it is the assembly of the parts. The amount spent on parts is probably not very great compared to the cost of the final product.
If the stuff you can see is sub par, what about the tiny stuff that makes the music? How good is that going to be? Would you buy a car with crooked bumpers? You would think that the lack of effort on that simple item might indicate a consistant lack of care in the building of the car. Yet a lot of people by carts with visable flaws because the dealer tels them they are all like that and it is ok. While truely, they might all be like that , it is not ok for my money, following the simple logic used above.
As many of us are seriously over the top, as far as being relentless driven perfectionist's, audiophilia draws them like flies on S*^T.I'd be willing to bet a Motorcycle, that there are fair amount of poor bastards, who've read this thread and then promtly dismounted thier cartridiges with trembling fingers and are now freaked out wondering if they're indeed perfect enough.
Cantilever even if they are dead nuts square, when they're first mounted, often develop a little offset after some use, as the suspension loosens up and settles in, and IMHO is harmless as the suspension easily allows for it
If it ain't broke don't fix it !
Perfection is not even real, it's a construct !
"I'd be willing to bet a Motorcycle, that there are fair amount of poor bastards, who've read this thread and then promtly dismounted thier cartridiges with trembling fingers and are now freaked out wondering if they're indeed perfect enough."That is indeed a scary thought, but I bet you're right. Anal-retentives are legion here at the asylum, particularly the waxheads.
I agree with you that this cantilever issue is a matter of degree and perception, but I'd wager that if we had a clear photo of Riffer's cantilever (the one on the cartridge, Riffer!), we'd all be a lot closer to a consensus on whether it outta be thumbs up or down.
Digital camera too lousy - can't do macros.I am working with the distributor now to get a replacement cartridge. We'll see how it goes.
What the heck are you trying to say? That this area of discussion is overloading people with mental problems? I certainly don't mind another's opinion, as mine are sometimes entirely useless, but I miss your point.Are you saying that manufacturing to a high precision is not achievable, or just not needed in this product?
Perhaps you are thinking of perfection as a concept, while I was talking of hitting a goal of manufacturing tolerances, as applies to the discussion of building things, and that is where we differ. If you hit my construction goal, that is perfection for this purpose. I would think that microscopic tolerances are reasonable, since that is the size of the information being retrieved. Obviously, if flaws are visable to the eye, something is wrong.
Granted it is a task that can be achieved with a pin stuck into a cone of paper and held against a record, but better results can be had with more effort. Just like you could tell time with a stick's shadow as the sun moves, but most use a wrist watch.
I am currently considering 300-400 for a new cart. That would buy me a wrist watch with all the gears aligned and made to a high standared, hands polished and nice, and a few more polished jewels , if I desired, than would be used in a phono cart. A multi year warantee on it's functions and precision would not be unusual, but rare in a phono cart.
Can you tell me that a phone cart is harder to build, or needs more costly parts? It is only because hearing is such a subjective thing that these poor quality efforts thrive in the market place. (you think what you hear)
I think the good poster is not getting a fair value for his money. I don't think he expected to get a crooked of misaligned product when he made his buying decision. It was probably represented, as most are, with what to expect , via graphs and construction specs. It probably did not say "might be shipped mis-aligned or not play correctly when mounted in a normal way".
Since none of the defects he has were brought to his attention as a possibility[ while he was making his buying decision, he is certainly correct to expect to recieve what he resonably expected to get for his money. He did not bargin for a low quality product, he expected the precision represented when he paid his money. The company does not have have product standards as an unreachable goal or a pie in the sky dream. I think the consumer should be just as results oriented.
They will get a better product, if they can hear it is up to them.
" Are you saying that manufacturing to a high precision is not achievable, or just not needed in this product? "Obviously not ! what I am saying is that perfection is unrealistic
any manufacturing process involves QC which inherently has a given range of acceptability certain components like Helicopter Transmission and rotor parts are critical to the degree that the acceptable QC range is such that there is 80%+ rejection rate and the cost then becomes astronomical as a result and even under those circumstances none of those parts are literally perfect, if that was the case a helicopter would cost over a billion at least.Phono cartridges aren't excused from the same economic principals that govern the manufacturing/cost relationship as any other product
just because some of the users are wound too tight neurotic weenies.And at least theoretically the more expensive the product, those ranges diminish, but the fact remains that when you buy one of those products the actual odds of getting one right at the mean or the range is statistically unrealistic.
Regards FredJ
Thank you for the further explination, we do not disagree. I once had a room mate that worked for a company that built turbo rotors that compressed natural gas into a liquid. Those products had more than a 97% failure rate in testing, and yes , they were very expensive.I would like to add a little more to the quality control discussion.. Some companies reduce the in house quality control costs and results, insted funding customer service (or not). They expect the additional defective product to be added into the customer service workload . They feel that it is more cost effective to let things go out, and if anyone objects, customer service will take good care of them. The result being a happy customer with personal attention from the company. The down side is that not all dissatisfied customer will act, but in this age of easy communications they feel that the economic trade off is worth it.
I guess what I am trying to say is that quality control is sometimes a two step process today. By design , the customer is expected to recieve a certain number of defective product. The customer inspects the product, and than corrects as needed, insted of the company trying to send out, and pay for, very high quality.
Obviously, this will not work with helicopter parts. But, in a market place dominated by price considerations as a primary factor, it is a way to bring in a cheaper product. The problem is that most carts are not cheap.
It would seem to me that the double talk know nothing hi fi market would get some of this action, without harm to the company. Products are sold on "magic" . I'm sure you can think of your own examples. And that was my point, to hold feet to the fire. If your money was defective, of came to them mis-aligned, you would hear about it quick. I was trying to lobby for only an honest effort , not some unworldly product. Think of the kind of the precision available in computers at audio cartridge price points. It is there because the consumers draw the line at what is acceptable quality.
What the heck are you trying to say? That this area of discussion is overloading people with mental problems? I certainly don't mind another's opinion, as mine are sometimes entirely useless, but I miss your point.Are you saying that manufacturing to a high precision is not achievable, or not needed in this product?
Perhaps you are talking of perfection as a concept, while I was discussing hitting a goal of manufacturing tolerances, as applies to the discussion at hand, and that is where we differ. If you hit my construction goals, that is perfection for this purpose. I would think that microscopic tolerances are reasonable, since that is the size of the information being retrieved. Obviously, if flaws are visable to the eye, something is wrong.
Granted it is a task that can be achieved with a pin stuck into a cone of paper and held against a record, but better results can be had with more effort. Just like you could tell time with a stick's shadow as the sun moves, but most use a wrist watch.
I am currently considering 300-400 for a new cart. That would buy me a wrist watch with all the gears aligned and made to a high standared, hands polished and nice, and a few more polished jewels , if I desired, than would be used in a phono cart. A multi year warantee on it's functions and precision would not be unusual, but rare in a phono cart.
Can you tell me that a phone cart is harder to build, or needs more costly parts? It is only because hearing is such a subjective thing that these poor quality efforts thrive in the market place. (you think what you hear, and seeing the stuff is impossable without aids )
I think the good poster is not getting a fair value for his money. I don't think he expected to get a crooked of misaligned product when he made his buying decision. It was probably represented, as most are, with what a great product to expect , via graphs and construction specs. It probably did not say," might be shipped mis-aligned or not play correctly when mounted in a normal way".
Since none of the defects he has were brought to his attention as a possibility while he was making his buying decision, he is certainly correct to expect satisfaction , to recieve what he resonably expected to get for his money. He did not bargin for a low quality product, he expected the precision represented when he paid his money. The company does not have have product standards as an unreachable goal or a pie in the sky dream. I think the consumer should be just as results oriented.
They will get a better product, if they can hear it is up to them.
Obviously for catridges to perform well and to accomplish thier function requires a given degree of precision in alignment of the cantilever to the generator assembly.However if the cantilever isn't perfectly parallel to the cartridge body, aligning the cantilever, not the cartridge body
ends up working every bit as well, as long as you align it reasonably well.A majority of newbies are quite intimidated by the whole concept
of cartridge alignment as it is.Aspects of this thread which will lead many of them to believe thier styli has to be absolute perfectly square isn't realistic
and certainly isn't going to help them a bit, gets thier underwear in a bundle and some of them are going to be sending back perfectly fine cartridges and or being to freaked out to learn how to align thier own cartridges and end up getting stuck relying on shops to do thier alignments, and for the most part they'd have taken the time to do a better job themselves and derive a great deal more enjoyment from the hobby.It is after all a matter of perception and degree.
Regards FredJ
It is about 3 degrees off +/- .5I had just never seen this in a New cartridge before - and to get two in a row is astounding to me. Maybe the person at the factory was cockeyed or something?
If it isn't a big deal, I will live with it. This was just an interim cartridge to tide me over until major upgrade time later in the year.
I just wanted to know if this is normal for other manufacturers before I write off Ortofon for future purchases.
NT
Provided you meant that the CANTILEVERS are non-parallel. I doubt most of us can see a STYLUS well enough to tell.I agree with your decision not to accept the first cartridge. I would never accept a new cartridge with a twisted cantilever. Getting azimuth right would be a nightmare, or just plain impossible. Channel seperation and imaging would be down the toilet.
I'd also never accept a new cartridge with a cantilever that's non-parallel TO THE MOTORS. It would surely have channel imbalances, probably varying at different frequencies.
If, OTOH, the cantilever and motors are square TO EACH OTHER you're probably okay. Having them slightly non-parallel to the body isn't such a big deal.
Aligning your cantilever (not the cartridge body) with a good protractor is not difficult. If this leaves the cartridge body at a slight angle to the protractor and/or headshell so be it. Sonically that's irrelevant.
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"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
Hi,What Fred said is almost certainly incorrect for the very reason you state. The motor structure (i.e. the magnet or magnets) is almost certainly aligned with the cartridge body by design. No amount of tolerance stack will allow for a visually misaligned cantilever. I know I've never seen it in my 35 or so years playing with this stuff. If however, like you stated, the cantilever and motor assembly are incorrectly mounted in the body, then, yes, not too big a deal and in fact correctible but still VERY disturbing, No?
Yeah, I've seen lots of cartridges with misaligned cantilevers which I think resulted from (most likely) incorrect antiskate (way too much is very common). Never a NEW one, though. Any and all new cartridges with misaligned cantilevers need to go back. They are either 1) NOT new or 2) production rejects.
nt
Common enough that aligning the cantilever rather than the Cartridge body is almost universal expert advice.
If you have an SME III or other arm with holes rather than slots to mount the cart, you're kinda out of luck if the cantilever isn't straight.
It's always worried me. It's such a small thing, that alignment might be a problem.
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Lyra specifies that stylus-cantilever alignment be within 2 degrees IIRC. He tried to get it down to 1 degree, but no one could make the assemblies reliably. The reject rate became prohibitive.
__________
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
So if the cantilever being a few degrees off is significant, so will the stylus being 2 degrees off be significant.We are lucky to ever get the alignment correct !! - lends some weight to ideas of tweaking any setup by ear after setting it roughly with a protractor.
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First of all, you can assume that nothing is ever absolutely perfect and if indeed quality control slipped up and you have "Calmly" (usually allowing yourself time to chill and relax) and then give it a careful exam with a Jewelers loupe, that a REAL problem wouldn't require any sort of real guess work.That said, if you realistically consider the range of allowable clearances etc. in the entire turntable/arm/cartridge chain then look at the records themselves, there is most often some degree of off center spindle hole or warp, dishing etc. perhaps these are barely perceptable, then carefully watch the record being played noting the range of tonearm movement it's quite obvious there is a significant amount of perceived or real imperfection going on.
But fortunately this stuff is a seriously mature technolgy.
With a careful deliberate set up of most any basically competent decent tonearms and cartridges they take all this in stride and make wonderful music and with proper care, record cleaning, stylus maint. and timely stylus replacement our records will doubtless outlast any of us IMO.
WOW Fred,
Is this really true?If so, and QC has really gone to crap to such an extent, why bother making cartridges!!
Send an instant karma to me...
-Ray
Ray - In my years of hanging out in audio salons, my friends as well as others just about every cantilever that was of " a few degree's or even several degrees off center " has invariably actually been off less than one degree, and a few that seemed dead nuts square but the guy was having a near anxiety attack, as well as the fact that many of the examinations were due to the person dropping the tonearm on the record or having it skitter accross the record and then they are convinced it's now destroyed.
I have serious doubts that most cartridges ever leave the factory
off even a full degree, worst case.
So I figured I'd save the guy the trouble of sending the 2nd back.Judgement call.
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