|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
205.232.74.246
Hi all,I'm a relative newbie to vinyl, I got into it by going to a local library sale, where I found loads of classical music LP's for prices that made me feel guilty for buying them (but not guilty enough not to buy dozens anyway).
Obviously, in that situation, some of the LPs I got are in fairly tired condition; but some are also very good, all are at least listenable.
Now for my problem; I had initially purchased the very cheap AT-PL50 turntable by Audio Technica to listen to these as I wanted to minimize my entry cost. I fairly quickly decided I wanted something better, and recently I've mangaed to get my hands on an old Pioneer PL400 turntable w/ an Empire cartridge mounted on it (it was free froom a relative that hadn't used in for years, but said it worked fine).
While not an audiophile grade piece, I had expected the Pioneer to be definite upgrade from the el cheapo AT I started with.
Except most of the LPs I've played through the PL400 sound worse than when played with the ATPL50.
Especially when the music gets loud and busy/complex (for orchestral classical pieces this is often) I hear lots of distortion, particularly for sound in the treble range.
I've read this sort of distortion can be indicative of groove damage on the LP, and for some albums that's certainly the case, but it sounds markedly worse on the "better" TT when I play them A/B.
What I'd like to know is what the likely reason for this is?
Improper cartridge setup on the pioneer table?
Or is everything fine, and the Pioneer table simply resolves the damaged information on my tired LPs better, making them sound "worse" when I'm really just hearing a more accurate reproduction of what's in the grooves?
I'm saving up for a "real" TT, something on the order of a MMF2.1 or Pro-Ject Debut II, so hopefully I won't have to deal with either or these two for too much longer, but while I do I'd like at least adequate sound quality.
Follow Ups:
A high compliance cartridge performs best with a medium to low mass tonearm. A low compliance cartridge prefers a medium to high mass arm.
Talk about an upgrade being disappointing. My MMF 2 was my worst audio purchase. I felt ripped off the whole time I owned it. I can't say about the bottom end Project but they are made in the same factory so I would expect the same level of "quality". If you can't save up $500 to $700 then please by a nice used Rega, Thorens, or Dual. A cheap POS from Czechoslovakia is not an improvement over solid designs from the 70's and 80's. I sold my Denon DP37F to buy that Music Hall "upgrade" and was seriously disappointed.
the one that sounds "better" is probably closest to the one(s) that have been plowing through these second-hand records (in terms of tracking force, conical vs. elliptical, stylus width etc.) Which one sounds better to you with a brand-new unplayed piece of vinyl?
Better resoulution has never made my old records sound anything but better- you're thinking too much! The PL-400 is a decent sub-$50 turntble IME. Check the basics:First, it sounds very much as if the cart is worn badly and/or misaligned. Don't risk trashing your records with an unknown old cartridge. Do the math: relative cost to replace that old Empire with a decent-sounding new Shure M70B or A-T CN-5625AL for $25, verus killing dozens or records! Check Needle Doctor, Ed Saunders on eBay, etc. for cheap deals and reliable service.(Go to your local HoFiHut- mine has carts in th little glass case for $30 to $3000, and they answer all qustions, dumb an smart.) When you get a better 'table, keep this cart as a back-up.
Mount the new cart and set it up decently- it doesn't have to be the National Bureau of Standards- you can do a good enough job. Look in VA FAQ- link at top of page. You want to set the tracking force with a scale, don't trust the numbers on the back of the arm. You can buy or borrow a friend's alignment protractor (commonly a mirored scale with calibrations printed on it) and make sure the cartridge is aligned as well as it can be on the arm, to reduce tracking error. Follow the E-Z instuctions with the protractor. Don't forget to look at azimuth (the twist of the crtridge about its longtitudinal axis). I don't think the Pioneer can be adjusted for vertical tracking angle easily, but read about it, look at yours, and think about it.
Clean all electrical contacts but be absolutely sure not to get contact-cleaner on the diamond tip of the cart- they can come unglued and fall off! Make sure the cart mounting screws are tightened snugly and the removable headhell is firmly attached.
Surprisingly, a major determinant for good sound is to clean your s records- some carts are more sensiive to noise and crud than others! I think its fair to say that cleaning in all cases improves the sound and makes your records last.
Good luck. Didn't mean to get too rudimentary- if you know all this already forgive me. Ask questions here if you get stumped.
.
Thanks for all the replies everyone.I suspect the cartridge is simply worn out; in addition to whatever use it was put through by my relative it also sat unused for approximately a decade.
Careful cleaning of the stylus did reduce the distortion; now the PL400 and ATPL50 distort about equally now. Neither seems to do well with complex, loud passages.
The PL400 is definitely more musical. I suspect I'm now hitting the tracking limitations of a cheap factory mounted AT3600 cart. in the ATPL50, and the limitations of a worn-out cartridge in the PL400.
I checked the alignment of the PL400 with the free, downloadable protractor from http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm . It's actually basically right on. The VTA is not adjustable, as mr. bear pointed out. I don't have a VTF scale yet; I have it set between 1 and 1.5g right now, where the previous owner had it (after balancing the arm). I don't have the manual, and therefore don't know where to adjust the azimuth, but it looks fairly good anyway.
I also looked at the stylus tip with a jeweler's loupe that I happen to have around. I can't see any sharp edges/flat spots on the diamond, so I don't think it's tearing up the records I put it on at least.
Guess that just leaves me looking at new cartridges for this thing then. Do these types of turntables (quartz DD) typically have the infamous "Grado hum" issues? Aside from that the Grado Black seems to get good marks at its price point.
...1.25g seems a bit low. Too low a VTF can encourage mistracking and make records sound overly bright and harsh. Try it at 1.75g and see if the sound improves. This seems to be more or less the optimum weight for many moving magnet cartridges IME.Hope this helps!
Kind Regards,
Orchestral music requires superior tracking, and none of the Empire carts is good tracker. You should invest $200-300 in a good cartridge. Shure V15VxMR and Ortofon OM30 is what comes to mind first, or one of the vintage Audio Technica (AT14S, AT15S, 8008, AT160ML, AT170ML), or vintage Shure V15, or vintage ADC XLMIII. Cheap cartridges not only mistrack in the loud orchestral passages, but they damage those hard-to-track passages.
Even cheap modern carts track very well! Actually, most modern cheap MM carts track better than the more expensive MC carts (because MM carts are fundamentally better trackers).No new, modern cart, even cheap ones in the $50 range, should mis-track on even the most demanding passages.
I agree he probably needs a new cart, but he doesn’t have to spend $200-300 just to get a decent tracking cart. A cart in that price range will be overkill for his turntable and needs. $50-$100 is more than enough!
Dear Chris, thank you for your input. Certainly, a good MM cart from my list will very soon necessitate a better amplifier and speakers. So, his Empire cart is a good match to what other gear he has, system-wise. But he was complaining about distortion of loud orchestral passages, and I know that this kind of material, especially in the inner groves, really requires superior tracking. I have very decent "second level" MM carts such as Shure M95ED and Ortofon M20FL, and they do noticeably distort loud orchestral strings, full organ, and operatic singing. For pop/rock and jazz tracking doesn't matter that much, and almost anything will indeed track these kinds of music on vinyl.Shure did actual research on how "hot" real records (not test records) can be cut. I have read it in V15 Type III literature. They found that best audiophile records contain passages exceeding even the trackability of the Type III.
Assuming the Pioneer's cartridge isn't trashed, the mistracking distortion is probably a setup issue, maybe as simple as inappropriate tracking force and antiskate bias. Read the FAQ links regarding TT setup and cartridge alignment, bearing in mind that cheap tables usually don't offer the full range of adjustments--do the best you can.It's certainly possible that the Pioneer isn't as good as the AT, though that wouldn't be responsible for the distortion you're hearing. The cartridge is either misaligned or kaput.
the stylus could even be so worn it is damaging your lps, or the cart suspension could be worn out.
I bought a new MMF2.1 back in January and am still pleased with it. Due to recommendations on this forum, I replaced the stylus with the one by lpgear.com. You'll find postings in the archives here from other owners who have tweaked and modified this model.A few things I highly recommend are going after a great sounding phono stage amp (I just built a 9V battery powered Hagerman Bugle and initial listening impression is very positive). I (like many others here) also recommend the Disc Doctor record brushes and a good cleaner (I currently use Disc Doctor). Get into the habit of scrubbing your LPs (thrift finds especially!) and gently towel dry. After that, I recommend running them through a record vaccuum machine (I just purchased the $199 Record Doctor II) to suck out the micro-dust.
And finally, before playing, brush and clean off the stylus and apply a stylus treatment (I'm using LAST products here). I also have record preservative solution but, haven't gotten around to using it yet.
In my opinion, this total process has delivered a very satisfying vinyl listening experience (yes, even with thrift store finds).
How much mileage on the stylus?
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: