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to preface this, i will say that i am a total noob when it comes to vinyl. i have no idea how it's recorded and so forth. i recently purchased a used rega planar 3 and goldring 1012gx cartridge (they haven't arrived yet...should be next week). anywho, my listening preferences are all over the map. for example:nine inch nails
ministry
tool
a perfect circle
pj harvey
tori amos
albert king
stevie ray vaughan
edvard grieg (classical)
a hodge podge of other piano based classical music as wellmy fiance is trying to persuade me to "return" the rega and cartridge. her justification is that since i mainly listen to the above listed artists most, i will not notice a discernable difference between vinyl and cd because.......those artists record in an all digital environment to begin with so the analog (vinyl) recording will be made from the same digital master that the cd comes from. i see her point, but i'm not exactly sure that's how it work. i have a "stay of execution" so to speak in that i told her if i set it all up properly and didn't prefer the sound of vinyl to cd, i'd sell the rega, cart, and handful of recent acquired lps. can anybody shed some light on this for me / her? my setup is:
denon 3805 (preamp - waiting for supratek chenin)
cary slm-200 tube monoblocks (100+ watts triode)
gershman acoustics avant garde rx-20
nordost blue heaven speaker cablekevin t
Follow Ups:
thanks again for the concern and insight. i think mark has nailed down the concern i had. my fiance loves music and is often eager to come to my house (our future home) to listen to her new cd's on my system so it's not a matter of not liking music. she also loves to go see live shows and has been to a few shows of bands i know she doesn't like just because i enjoy them (skinny puppy for instance - a show which she absolutely loved). i'm not giving up the rega. i just wanted to gauge the validity of her argument. i see now that there are holes in her "digitally recorded sounds the same" argument. i guess the proof to her will be when i spin the recently purchased remaster of acid bath: "when the kite string pops" i purchased on vinyl (another of her favorite bands). thanks for trying to look out for me, but i've already been in a relationship with a possessive and controling woman, so i know the signs and i know when to abandon ship.kevin t
My wife loves music, sings and plays piano. But she could not understand my obsesion with stereo equipment.
Then one day we went to friends house. They had 1 month old TV and and surround system (surround with player alone was more than $3000 but japanese 'junk' as I call it) and we listened to it part of the evening. After we got out and sat in the car, I asked her about the sound and she said 'it sounds unnatural, metallic and just wrong, I like ours much better' (At the time our sytem cost was only about $1800). So give her time to relize what she is getting out of it.
that I married my wife for her record collection. In all these years of marriage, love of music has been our strongest bond, not audiophile-itis. She basically thinks it's silly, but she would NEVER!! tell me to get rid of my turntable or anything like that. I think this is a test by your fiance of your resolve. If you give in, it's just the beginning. Who wants a life under someone's domination? Cut her loose. Find a girl who likes music. You'll probably never find one who likes audio, but music is enough - more than enough.
I am definitely not attempting to be sexist, and I know we have a number of very knowledgeable women on this board. That being said, it is my experience that most women, including my wife, couldn't care less about digital vs. analog, etc., let alone want to debate me on the subject. That isn't to say that she doesn't have occasional concerns about spending, etc., but that can apply to any hobby. Is your wife an audiophile as well? Is she into this stuff? If so, you might have something in common that you can share throughout your life. It may be that she just enjoys digital better. The two formats can coexist. I know that my wife likes music, but doesn't really care about format. Anyway, some of my thoughts. Good luck.
A couple things:
First, let's look at a couple of things on your music list that were most likely recorded in analog, and could be possibly found in vinyl, with perhaps an all analog signal path:ministry: while maybe digitized at some point, I think that some earlier stuff was recorded analog
pj harvey: I know at least "Rid of Me" was recorded by Steve Albini, all analog.
albert king: of course recorded all analog, and you could buy original analog pressings, and I think there is an all anolog audiophile reissue or two around.
stevie ray vaughan; while there is a chance some of his stuff may have been recorded in digital format, since he did most of his recording in the 80s, there is a chance it is analog.
edvard grieg (classical) since he died in 1907, there is chance that you could find recordings of his work by performers during the golden age of analog.
a hodge podge of other piano based classical music as well: come on, you can get stuff from the 50s and 60s that, of course, is all analog.
Now, here is another take on things. I used to be of the school that "if it was digital, you might as well just buy the cd." Some other folks have claimed that "something special" happens when you transfer something to vinyl, even if it starts out digital. While I use to poo-poo this notion, I have come to find (as I have upgraded my gear over time) that this can be true, IF proper care was taken into mastering for vinyl. Hey, while some of the later Radiohead stuff may have been recorded to analog (like "Hail to the Theif", a lot of that recorded at Oceanway), there albums are so obviously Protoolzed. Yet the vinyl versions I have sound more enjoyable to me than the cd versions I have of those same albums. I also have some albums that were most likely sourced from digital that sound terrible, with no care going into them, more like someone just dumping what's on the cd to vinyl, rather than doing a proper mastering with the intention of going to vinyl. From what I understand, the latest Beatles reissues from Japan are an example of terrible sounding digital vinyl issues.
Why could it sometimes sound better on vinyl even if digital may have been in the signal chain? Well, one thing I can think of: vinyl has it's own level of distortion in its playback. Not saying this is bad, it's probably one thing that adds a bit of character to vinyl. So maybe it "warms" things up a little bit. Just a thought. Also depends on your equipment. I have a nice SACD player (Sony ES555, with some slight modding by the Oades Brothers), but a much nicer tunrtable (Redpoint Quattro, designed by Peter Clark of Redpoint and Thom Mackris, now of Galibier.) The turntable wins in most cases over the cd player. It just presents music to me in a way that feels more natural.
By the way, you have some nice gear, would be a shame to see it go to waste without a turntable!
We have big electrostatic speakers in our Manhattan studio, also a large turntable on a big sandbox, a rack full of gear, etc. The system sure does dominate our living space.
CDs won't last forever, no matter what some dipshits will say. There are cases of cds from the 80s and even 90s rotting. It seems that there can still be little tine airholes in the plastic that can lead to the eventual oxidation of the aluminum layer that holds the music info. Yet I have LPs from the 50s and 60s that are still fine. Also, hey, what if the cd does not exist someday (replaced, by, say, music downloads only?) I think there are enough analog fanatics to keep things going for a while, even if it's a small nitch group. Someone will most likely keep making cartridges (just as people still make tubes!), and if you get a heavy-duty enough turntable, it could last most of your lifetime.
Several suggestions- after 20 years of marriage and dealing with this stuff with the Mrs.....1) Push the LP's as more of a fashion statement- the artwork is very cool.....buy albums that match the dreary drapes, big ugly wall art & expensive uncomfortable sofa that your new wife will eventually demand. You need to find a benefit to LP's that she can relate to. (especially if it's not going to be the quality of the sound)
2) If your wife is into antique hunting then you have it made...while she's looking to fill your home full of future yard sale inventory and ugly knick-knacks to dust, you can be looking for vintage LP's to buy and enjoy. My wife and I have been going to flea markets, yard sales & antique places for years...it gives you a socially acceptable reason to shop together without having to spend a whole lot of money.
3) Has she actually seen the Rega yet? Does she know how cool (fashion statement) it will look? Have you accentuated the high style sculpture of it with her? Does it match the paint color of the rug? Maybe she would be happier if you let her buy a big ugly armoire to hide it in as a compromise....or let her put in new carpeting to match the color of the plinth.
4) She must have some similar hobby or fetish that you can start bugging her about to use as a negotiating tool. For example, does she really need to have more than one shade of lipstick or nail polish? Start taking notice of how many handbags, shoes or coats she has....and make some arbitrary comments about how much of your jointly hard earned money is going into excess cosmetic inventory....she will either back down or you will have a great fight....which gives you an opportunity to make up and have.....a lot more time to buy LPs!
Good luck.
MAK
Hi,Your fiancé's basic point, that you "will not notice a discernable difference between vinyl and CD because those artists record in an all digital environment to begin with, so the analog (vinyl) recording will be made from the same digital master that the CD comes from," is flawed.
I've found that the real problem with CDs is not that the music was digitally recorded or even the CD medium itself. AA's John Elison has distributed numerous CDs recorded from his $10,000+ turntable and those that have heard them are unanimous in saying they sound great.
The problem, to my ear, with commercial CDs stems primarily with the way they are pressed. I have done experiments copying CDs to my Mac, then re-burning them to pre-treated black CD-Rs, and they sound better. More listenable. You can read extensively about this kind of thing on the Digital Asylum, if you are curious.
IMO vinyl as a medium is friendlier to musical reproduction—and to your ears—even if the music being played was recorded, mixed or sometimes even mastered digitally.
That aside let me say that I think it's way too early in your relationship to have to be negotiating with her this way and over something so trivial. Tell her you want to collect records and that's that.
BTW, I can tell you in advance that your Rega will blow away your CD player based on the rest of your gear.
Good luck.
My wife, in comparison, said to me, "Honey, how much should I contribute to your analog turntable/tonearm/cartridge fund for your birthday...a thousand dollars?"Get the picture? And don't even think of getting my wife away from me bud!
...I mean something like this just does not happen in the real world.:)
Yes, it is true. But keep in mind that I am very generous toward my wife. I buy her jewelry, and when it came time to buy a car, I bought her a new one and not a used vehicle, etc. But despite the gifts we give to each other, she a good person at heart, and that's what really matters to me.
You've definitely got a winner there.(Forget about the records, tonearm, cartridge, turntable, CD player, amplifier, phono preamp, record cleaning gear, headphone preamp, power supply, CDs, cassette player, CD recorder, Cassettes, that comfortable couch....well, you get the idea!)
: > )
"No! You great big loser! You can't have any vinyl, you moron! Take out the trash, clean my car, wash the dog, wash the cloths, paint the fence, earn more money, you deadbeat, be nice to my mother; tell my mother how much she matters to you, walk the dog, give me your paycheck, all of it"...yada, yada, yada.
Dump her; she's a control freak!
you're on slippery slope my man......it always starts this way....give in now and before you know it they want you to give up the other Squeezes you got on the side!
pax vobis
guys....i think i may have not given a full picture of the situation. this isn't one of those instances of a controlling s.o. she's not saying i have to send back the tt. she is just worried that my spending will spiral out of control (she's divorced and her first husband spent tens of thousands of dollars....some of which she got stuck with in the settlement - different story). bascially, all i wanted to know was the relevance of her arguement regarding digitally mastered recordings being pressed to vinyl and what sound quality they would have when compared to their "perfect" digital counterpart. this is going to be a listen and decide situation but i was just wanting to assuage my own fears of the vinyl version of nin "the fragile" sounding the same as the cd version of nin "the fragile."kevin t
the difference from the digital version and her actual voice. (Of course, you'll have to buy a digital recorder, but that's another post.)Seriously: She has a reason to be apprehensive, based now upon the additional information you've provided about her previous husband. She only wants to be careful - and to be reassured - that she's not making the same mistake. That seems to be where she's coming from.
Pay the bills and listen to your good music and your good fiance.
I'm not called Dr. Drib for nothing!!!!!
I find that digitally recorded albums sound better on LP than on their CD counterparts. In virtually all cases, the LP is less fatiguing, thus making for a more enjoyable listening session IMHO. You can test for the fatigue factor simply by listening to some LPs and their CD equivalents straight through.Likely, there are other advantages to the LP as well (LP's tend to sound more organic/natural vs. the CD's clinical/sterile sound) depending on the album, even on a digital recording. These differences tend to be minimized on albums where the recording sounds too compressed. A lot of rock albums are like this (e.g. most of Bruce Springsteen's stuff).
Even if you can't tell which format you like better, I'd suggest holding on to both your vinyl and CD equipment and software for a while. See which format you naturally gravitate towards. That should give you your answer as far as which you should keep.
Good luck!
p.s. I noticed you mentioned Tori Amos in your post. I have Under the Pink and Boys for Pele on vinyl. I've don't have those albums on CD (and I don't know if the vinyl is digitally recorded), but I'm fairly sure the vinyl will give the CD a run for its money.
Her argument has no relevance. She has leftover baggage from her first marriage.Listen, I have two degrees in psychology, one of which is in marriage, family, child counseling. I know what I am talking about here. She has a control and a trust issue with you.
Remember, the Trojans opened their gates to accept what looked like a harmless horse. Maybe they thought it was full of vinyl?
thanks for the advice fellas, but you all seem to be assuming i'm a moron. i have a degree in psychology and sociology and i'm currently working on a masters in social work so i'm no slouch when it comes to interpersonal relationships. vinylgenxer and viggen gave me the answers more closely in line to what i was looking for. thanks for all the concern about my relationship, but it's unwarranted.kevin t
NT
you dont have to dump cd as a source, i havent and i have 4k LPs. i even have embraced sacd (not expensively either). some music will only be available on CD, but then the SAME can be said for LP, PLUS you can take many more chances on used vinyl that used cd.with new vinyl, the noise factor isnt as high and the possibility of better sound is LARGE. as your music tastes broaden, and they WILL, used vinyl will enable your journey at below airfare pricing.
you wouldnt try to keep her from a passion she embraces that you dont, she shouldnt do that either.
...regards...tr
and here is my take on it.If you start giving into her whims, even trivial ones, she will expect to be able to get her way whenever she wants. It's a control thing. I know, I have been there and done that with my first wife.
At this stage of the game, you are madly in love. If you don't send the TT back, is she going to call off the marriage? Of course not. You need to stand up for what you want, or you will end up a whipped pup, always doing what she wants, so she won't get mad. Trust me, after a few years of this behavior, you will get tired of it and it will become a problem within the marriage. You will be resentful of always having to do what she wants, and when you attempt to make a stand after years of giving into all her wants, she will become very angry. Why? Because you have always given her her way.
It is like a person who enjoys playing golf with his buddies. When a man starts not going because she doesn't want you to, and doesn't go play golf because she wants you to stay home, you are developing her expectations of the relationship for the future. Early in a relationship it can cause some mild disagreements, but she will get over it and it will become a non-issue. But let her have her way for a few years and all hell will break loose when you stand up to playing golf with your friends. It could actually lead to seperation.
I think you should get your turntable, keep it for as long as you want and she will get used to it. It won't become a big deal. She will probably even begin to enjoy it with you.
Don't let her begin to wear the pants. She will respect you more for it in the long run.
My first marriage, based on giving into her wants all the time lasted 3 1/2 years. This marriage I am on now has lasted over 25 years, using the method I have suggested. It's your choice, but heed my words, this is a more important decision than you realize.
Steve
Do you really want to marry someone who is gonna try and "persuade" you to bend to their will everytime they aren't interested in the same things you are? Doing so sets a precedent, and it can become a very slippery slope. And the further down the slope you go, the more traumatic it can be when you decide to put on the breaks and stand your ground.If you want to have a harmonious marriage, it is vital that there is a certain amount of latitude on both sides. This is the exact kind of situation that can degenerate into some very ugly control issues later on, if allowed to fester and grow.
I am just not smart enough to put it into a simpler, less wordy form. But our thinking is exactly the same.
My girlfriend (soon to be fiancee hopefully, wish me luck guys!) doesn't mind my record collecting or hifi interests, in fact she says it's quite sweet whenever I wax lyrical about my latest charity shop finds or other audio nerdiness. Which is good! But I've started buying a few records of things that she likes - Green Day, AFI, that sort of thing, in order to try and bring her further into the fold. I would suggest getting a couple of LPs that your lady might like, or ones that you know she does like, and spinning them, as someone else said, with a bottle of nice, and see if you can't change her mind. If you want, you can mention about the relative cheapness of some of the music that you like on vinyl - compare prices of classical piano cds to what you pay for LPs of the same music at your local charity shops - we're talking a factor of 10 here.
Whoops! I just spotted that someone else has already made this suggestion... that's what you get for not reading all the threads!
Best of luck with this, as another person said, it's not something you want to get hung up on at this stage. But talk to her, find out why she's so down on vinyl - maybe she doesn't like the time or money spent on the hobby, or maybe she's just cross because you didn't ask her first, or maybe you just need to buy her something sparkly to make her feel needed. I dunno, women are strange creatures!Certainly I think you're justified in keeping the Rega until you at least listen and find out if vinyl is for you. If you don't have a big collection already, it will be expensive to build one up if your taste is more towards modern artists. But you can only try it and see.
Andrew
I don't think any person in a normal circumstance would tell you not to get into vinyl because your favorite artists are "in digital environments". In my opinion, that is one lame excuse. Worst case scenarios: either you've maxed out your credit cards, or she's a control freak. I am sure it's somewhere in the middle. Best case scenario, she is only trying to be involved with your stereo hobby, and you truly respect her opinion and want to discuss this further with other audiophiles. If the latter is the case, then I can only say that I've recently taken the plunge into vinyl and have no regrets at all.
With all due respect, it sounds like we've got some real control issues here! I can't imagine my beloved telling me to return my turntable. Better you found out about it now! And I beg to differ...Albert King, SRV, and Grieg most certainly did NOT record 'in an all digital environment'.
in all fairness, she isn't telling me i have to return the turntable. i'd never date / consider marrying a person that would "tell me" to do something. however, she is concerned for our financial well-being, which i can understand. i now king, srv, and so forth didn't record digitally. she was referencing nin more than anything i presume.kevin t
If a used P3 will could hurt your financial well-being, you should save up some more dough before you get married. Now if you were trying to buy a Rockport I could understand....
If a Fiance did not allow me to persue what was important to me in life...something that Really made me happy........SAYONARA. Ever hear of the tip of the iceberg theory??
1) Start buying old jazz LPs that aren't on CD. This will give you the excuse to keep the TT.
2) Play something great, but idiosyncratic-- I'm Your Man by Leonard Cohen, say--and she won't want to come into the listening room.
3) Never speak of the turntable again and hope she forgets about it.
______________________________Even if the voices in my head aren't real, they still have some good ideas..
just for the song "Just The Two Of Us". Pour a couple glasses of nice wine, drop the needle, turn down the lights and........convince her.
Uh oh. Are you sure you want to start down this road? Today its your records, tomorrow ... ?As for vinyl, another factor is if you ever want to collect previous recordings, out-of-print, not translated to CD originals, classic performances, whatever. There's a lot of music out there that has gone before and won't come again. Sooner or later you'll want to indulge. Vinyl playback capability is worth having around even if you don't fire it up often. Your list of other gear is too good to not have full capability.
FR
My wife doesn't understand the audio addiction, but doesn't care much either. She has her toys, I have mine. We don't get worked up about it. It's all about tolerance and compromise.
As long as you can afford it, she should accept that it's your hobby, and you should do what makes you happy. Hobbies don't need to be justified, or even rationalized. Of course, she's entitled to her hobbies, too...Do you have any idea how much money one can spend on, say, a new kitchen? Or a Jaguar? Or a couple of horses? Yow.
If I were you, I would listen to her and forget about vinyl. There are many more important issues down the road for which you will want her to change her mind. You have to pick the most important issues to fight for. For all other issues, you should let her have her way. If vinyl is one of these most important issues, you need to find a new fiancé.Best regards,
John Elison
Very true.
Hey John,That's the best piece of advice I have heard in a LONG TIME!
But, then again, my wife and I agree with your attitude on hobbies.
"Spot on"
Phil
Your fiancee sees, quite perceptively, that what is starting as a modestly pricey entree into vinyl could become a very expensive obsession.To be honest you are on somewhat sketchy ground here. You don't have any vinyl records, your tastes are largely contemporary, and I'll bet your Rega setup won't "beat" your CD player.
Regarding digital vs analog, digital recordings are typically done at much higher standards that redbook CD 48.8/16 bit, then are dithered (i.e. compressed) to CD standards at the mastering stage. So there *is* a point to having vinyl versions of digital recordings.
(BTW there still are artists that record and mix on analog, and go to vinyl with no digital step. Not a lot, but some.)
For my part, I think that CD and vinyl each have a certain sonic signature, neither of which is "better" than the other. Good quality vinyl on an excellent turntable and phono pre probably "beats" the best CD reproduction, but even this is arguable.
This is only the beginning. You can dump her, or heed this advice I got from a man about arguing with women..."A bulldog can whip a skunk real easy, but it ain't hardly worth it."
...that might help.My wife tolerates my hi-fi and music shennanagins, thank god...
Rob"Let there be songs, to fill the air"
she does like most of the music i've purchased on lp. i guess i'll just listen and see (or hear as the case may be). i would hate to have to email mick at supratek and change my order as the chenin has a phono stage which i will not use if i decide vinyl isn't for me. oh well, whatever it takes to keep the peace to get a piece.kevin t
Now I know you have lost it! And all in the name of keeping the peace? Just wait until your mother-in-law shows up! You're going to get both barrels buddy!
i'm not cancelling the supratek order....though i might consider down-grading it from a chenin to a chardonnay. however, i'm about 99% sure i'm gonna stick with the order at hand. just typing what comes into my mind.kevin t
NT
Unless money is at issue here and the turntable and vinyl purchases have put something more important or more pressing on the back burner, I would think that you should be able to appease the soon to be Mrs. by some means.As far as differences between CD and Vinyl on your system --- My system is modest relative to probably most folks here.
I have a MMF-5 table with Shure M97xE cart. Cornet phono-stage and a Jolida Hybrid integrated. My CD players are a Jolida 603, Dynaco CDV-2 and a Tjoeb 99, all tubed players.
I don't have a whole lot of Vinyl that I also have CD's of but do have a few. Some Johnny Winter, Led Zep, SRV, Black Sabbath, Rush, AC/DC and some others I have on both formats. In every single case there is an audible difference between the CD and the Vinyl versions and in every single case it is for the better IMO. Some more glaringly than others but always better. A very good example is the SRV LP's vs. their CD counterparts. It's not even close, I won't even listen to the CD's in the house because the LP's just flat out sound better. In fact, anything that I have on Vinyl as well as CD, I'll spin the LP at home and save the CD for the car because the LP's are just better sounding.
You mentioned SRV so if you have both formats, try it for yourself. It doesn't take golden ears either. In fact, one of the more dramatic examples is SRV's Tin Pan Alley on LP vs. CD. If you have them both, do a comparison. Maybe that will help your argument as a shining example.Good Luck
thanks for the heads up. she's a pretty big srv fan. i just listen casually. i'll try to pick up some of her fave srv on vinyl. i really love the albert king / srv in session but the vinyl version of this is $75-$100.kevin t
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