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I digitized all my vinyl using a Rega RP10 and VIDA phono stage (good gear). I play it back on a very good Metrum Pavane DAC and it sounds very good indeed. I packed away the TT. Despite being satisfied with the sound (quite), I'm tempted to setup the damn TT once again.
This is where you, The Internet, come in, if you haven't been completely blacked-out yet.
I am interested in hearing from others who have digitized their ANALOG-RECORDED vinyl with *high-end* analog setups and play them back with *high-end* DACs. Do you feel the digital version provides everything the vinyl has or not?
Anyone who gives me worthwhile information will be sent a check for $40.
Follow Ups:
They said it better than I could...It explains what to consider when choosing a sampling rate and, understanding this, what effects this can have.
See link below,
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Edits: 10/24/16
"Do you feel the digital version provides everything the vinyl has or not?"
Without a shadow of a doubt! The digital transcription should be a faithful facsimile with a sufficiently good ADC/Master Clock combination. Degradation will occur at the ADC stage if the reference clock is jittery - the quantised signal then becomes irreperably "damaged" no matter how good your DAC is as the jitter from the ADC is imprinted on the quantised data.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
....even at very high sampling rates. IMHO, DSD is the way to go.
If you do use PCM, you should definitely rip to 24/192.
DSD is edited using DXD, aka 24/352 PCM.
Go figure. :)
Like Vinyl records made in 24/192 and edited in 24/192. They "might " sound good but, they are kind of B.S. Since if edited, they are automatically a PCM file , as in DSD> PCM> DSD etc.
Just out of interest what are the issues you have noted with PCM?
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
How did you rip the records in DSD and PCM? Which record did you use? What was your method?
Also would be great if you could list the equipment including the playback to assess your conclusion.
Thanks.
I like to have music with me on the go, but also love vinyl, so when buying new I tend to look for options to get the LP and the digital download. For those titles in my collection that don't have (or predated) this option, I digitize.
I have a good digital playback system at home - probably better than my vinyl setup - but I tend toward the vinyl when I want to sit down and listen to an album. When I want music playing in the background, or when I'm busy, say cooking in the kitchen, which is near the listening room, or have friends over and want music going for longer periods, I use the digital.
In process of rerecording my record collection to 24/192 via a TASCAM 3000 recorder. Results are so good as to be practically identical to my ears. Since John Ellison recommended the 3000, please send him $20 and me $20. ;-)) Use the 3000 as a DAC in my system as well as a recorder.
I won't pack up the TT anytime soon, as I enjoy the whole process of LP playback. But as I move inexorably toward my golden years, I like having the collection backed up to digital. And the portability factor, which drove the digitization initially, is off the charts. HAving a good DAP with hi res flac files available anytime anywhere...priceless. I use the small Sony NW17 IIRC, and the Pono.
Below posts all point out the convenience and rationale for utilizing a digital copy. I don't claim I hear major differences at 24/96 resolution level to my TT, but a dedicated listing session is just not as satisfying or is somehow fatiguing regardless of resolution and I cannot decide to change presentation by switching cartridge or arm. Spouse, kids all agree with this assessment and are more likely to join if vinyl or enjoy long range if digital.
I decided that the extra space for 24/96 and risking that the hard drives will not fail did not provide sufficient reason to store in this format. For permanent storage I normally burn a 16/44 and a 24/48 CDROM using an Alesis Masterlink 9600. The resulting file I can stream through various DACs, main dac Bryston BDA2, for household, function, and spouse music needs. I find 24/48 totally adequate for that usually using a Squeezebox.
Sometimes you get tired of rebuilding..
From Sheriff Bart:
"Excuse me while I whip this out."
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
Jerry is staring at Elaine after she has just told him straight out that her date the night before "took it out". Jerry asks for clarification.
"That's right... He took...." (breathes on glasses and starts wiping them)
"it" (pause)
"out."
One of the best comedic readings in the history of TV.
;^)
But yes Lew, I thought of that Seinfeld episode too.
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
From the female point of view, he took it out.
here...
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
love the Mel Brooks stuff.
nt
There's that, as well as Krusty the Clown's Two Rules of TV:
- Don't say "f---"
- Don't whip it out
Surprisingly, some of my most successful public speaking engagements have been those where I blatantly disregarded both precepts.
OH YES,
thae analog recorded to rbcd sounds VERY good but not the equal of analog LP. try playing the file and LP tune of the same file. you should be able to detect the superiority of the vinyl sound. more organic.
...regards...tr
My gear is surely not **high end** enough for my comments to warrant consideration, instead I'll just go listen to some music. But long ago, in a Bearcave far away, I did convince myself that very careful transcriptions from vinyl rekkids to shinydiscs sound very close to the vinyl, close enough to actually fool me in my own A/B/IForgot testing. (I literally couldn't remember which was the source when walked back into the room.) The difference was the thin layer of dust on top of the 1% of the 1%.
I found, coincidentally, that for best quality the playback had to be through the same electronic chain as the recording. My notes say "Stay on the same circuit board." (I was using a fine professional digital disc recorder.)
I voted with my tonearm, however, and still listen to vinyl as I have since roughly 1964. Why? Because I'm massively anally obsessed with a relentless drive for sonic purity? WELL OF COURSE, that and I own about 3,000 records of music I really like, and playing records is FUN and (almost) always sounds TASTY ("organic" is the right word but only for organ music)!
It's much the same as in 1915, as I recall, when Tommy Edison was promoting his Edison Diamond Disc Phonograph by staging wacky demonstrations known as "tone tests." These were public demonstrations in theaters where a singer would appear onstage, side by side with a phonograph playing a recording of their voice. Members of the audience were then asked to see if they could tell the difference between the recording played on the Diamond Disc Phonograph. REMARKABLE! These early audiophiles couldn't tell the difference either. For my sake, it didn't matter whether it was that incredible HiFi or the singer, I used to go to these just to hear the free music. Sometimes they had sandwiches...
Redbook CD? Who said anything about that?
I agree that 16/44 PCM recordings don't do it.
I appreciate the convenience of digital. Case in point, just sitting at home in the den, I can program just about whatever I want, without having to pull records, turn the side over, deal with cueing to hear or omit specific songs. I can easily create playlists for dinner parties etc. I can jump from artist to artist, song to song at will. Sonics are acceptable, and sometimes quite good. I listen to digital through either a Marantz SR7009 HT receiver, or a Bluesound Node 2 DAC Streamer. The former can accept DSD, the later is limited to 24/192. Both are good enough to hear differences between formats, conversion quality and if content resolution is native or upsampled.
On the other hand there are times when I want the full experience; to allow the music to wash over me, to envelope me. And for that, it is always vinyl through tubes.
My conversion equipment is: AR ES-1/ Shure V15VMR / Musical Fidelity a3.2 integrated amp (with very a very good phono stage) / ASUS Xonar ADAC converting at 24/192 / HP Win 7 laptop / Vinyl Studio.
I can create Redbook CDs of vinyl rips that sound better than purchases CDs of the same material.
But to answer your question; YES there are times when you should "Whip It Out"
I accept PayPal.
Best,
Ross
*** * ** *********** **** * *** *******.
Actually I find my LP playback more involving. It takes more effort. more thought has to go into playing a LP.
Plus it sounds a little different. Not so much better.. just different.
Checks will not be honored.
Well you don't say what adc you used, unless your VIDA has one built in. Or at what resolution, and did you remove any clicks or pops?
Here is my $40 advice, unless you don't have the shelf space or a decent place to put your tt and phono stage, whip it out.
Use your ears to decide. I love the convenience of 24/96 digitized vinyl, I can program a bunch of albums or individual tracks and just relax. At other times I like to listen to albums that I haven't digitized or something special that I want to hear in all of it's analog glory.
PM me,I'll give you the address for the check, or I will accept PayPal.
Sorry. It was the Korg, at DSD128, which is what it does best.
You didn't answer the question though.
How about 90-100%. I don't like using DSD for vinyl as it does not allow editing.
I don't like editing vinyl recordings as then listening to them is no longer just like listening to vinyl.
But I only used DSD as that's what that recorder does best.
I used to record vinyl at 24/96 PCM. I didn't do any DSP other than to fade volume in-between tracks so I didn't have to listen to groove noise. Now I record vinyl at DSD(128) and it seems to have less groove noise in-between tracks because I don't seem to miss the fades. I really think DSD(128) makes a more natural and transparent copy of my vinyl records and I intend to use DSD(128) from now on. It just sounds better to me even though I always thought my 24/96 recordings were essentially perfect. Now, I think DSD(128) recordings are actually more perfect. ;-)
"Now, I think DSD(128) recordings are actually more perfect. ;-)"
Perfection that exceeds perfection!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
there comes the day I won't be able to operate a tone arm. And more importantly I would like to preserve the sound of my favourite cartridge since the cost per play is getting too expensive for me.
I think I found the right AD finally.
This was a Kronos/Nagra set up at the Rocky and when I asked them about Nagra AD, the manufacture pointed to their Nagra Seven AD. I have heard a high res. vinyl file recorded by a Nagra before and I was always impressed by the sound.
Next to it was 38K Kronos table playing and when he played back a file recorded off the table by Nagra Seven it certainly preserved that natural analogue sound. They used the Nagra HD DAC of curse. ( Certainly it's on a *high end* side @ 28KUSD)
I'm sorry I don't have a worthwhile info to give you except to say I will be taking the same journey archiving my record collection. Altho, I have NO idea what I'll be using for a playback but there are plenty of other good DACs to choose from.
Mine too, Kuma, even though I'm not as ancient as Dave Pogue (I'm a mere 80). But my solution (I'm thinking now - - might change my mind when I get to 110 or so) is to use headphones and subscribe to some sort of streaming service rather than mess with any of that.
There's nothing wrong with a streaming service, but if you want the sound of vinyl from a digital player, you need to play digital copies of vinyl. I've never heard digital sound like vinyl otherwise.
Best regards,
John Elison
... I'm running two turntables (and 3 reel-to-reel tape decks) at 87 with zero problems, insofar as eye/hand coordination is concerned. Not least, because all the "computer audio" I've heard from folks i know who used to favor analog sources sounds worse than their previous setups did. A minority viewpoint maybe, but pretty strongly held.
Keep the faith :-)
which can be a problem later. It requires a rock solid handling for a hand cueing especially for me, I do a lot of track skipping. ( why is it always my favourite track is the last tune on a record! ) This is why some folks opted for a Linn arm over the Naim ARO altho the factory offered a gadget called *AROmatic*. This was not an elegant solution. :/
I hope I make all the vinyl recording BEFORE I have to use one.
I think that a high res. digital might outdo vinyl ( or come pretty close to it albeit I've a feeling it's not gonna be cheap ). One good thing going for it is lack of feedback. It's inevitable when you play turntable, the airborne vibration transmits to a cartridge affecting the sound.
That said, I don't think I go totally digital cuz, I enjoy discovering new music and artists by picking up used records from local record shops.
Even a pain vanilla Red Book CD rips are getting better than before.
I removed my table and phone pre from the main system. They are now connected either directly to the Tascam DA-3000 or my headphone amp.
I plan to monitor via headphones for recording. My recording signal chain I see is TT--> Phono --> Preamp--> ADC
... until I deduced that there is a difference between AROmatic and aromatic.
I tend to play records all the way through, so have fewer needs for pinpoint cueing. I do tend to use the finger lift more than the cueing lever tho it's nice to know the latter is available. But either is a piece of cake compared to operation of a reel-to-reel deck, tape being the ultimate hair-shirt medium.
It's just one more things that can rattle under the TT and it requires an extra hole. What I understand is it can break easily. It sure looks like an afterthought/half-arsed effort to me.
R2R can sound very nice. ( especially the master tape! )
I see the format is coming back like vinyl.
Its a perquisite for us old dudes to cherish our "vintage" systems. I remember my granddad standing in the driveway, drinking a Ballantine beer, polishing the 6-ft. long hood of his '51 Pontiac Starlight-Eight. I got it; I have the analogous hi-fi and feel the same abiding satisfaction. Both performed beautifully every day, but God-- I wish I had that car!
I *get* this tactile experience of vinyl playback. I have the same Karajan/Geiseking Grieg Concerto LP released in 1951 in above pix. It's almost like holding a history in my hand 65 years later.
This, I think, is the main reason, more so than the sound itself, of recent vinyl resurgence amongst millennials. You do not get this special bond from playing files off iPad or laptop.
Agreed, it's like a slice of 1951
*
I shudder to think what the Nagra ADC costs. (I said "high end," not HIGH end.)
at 5 grand.
Less costlier than 6 which came with many features I did not need at twice as much cost. The other AD I am interested in is Mytek. I like the sound of their DAC. so I reckon their AD should not be too bad. Altho, the last one I saw only did 24/96 tho. I am also fond of MSB but their DAC/ADC are in the range of 30K each. :/ way beyond my means.
My tip: Metrum Pavane with Sonore microRendu sounds better than MSB Analog DAC (and the Bricasti for that matter). Even with DSD material converted.
The thing about A-Ding a vinyl collection is not many want to do it twice. I sure as ---- don't. So that's that.
But the right choice of AD is critical. I am certainly it will a lot of trial an error to get a desired results. Going back and forth with actual LP playing. So the playback chain is also important, too to hear the result of recording itself.
Sounds like you've found your favourite DAC/AD.
Archiving a record is a huge undertaking all around. But once I find the right formula and process, shouldn't be too bad.
My technique was to carefully set input level ideally (to just avoid clipping) and I do NO processing to the files. (I want it to sound like playing a record - why would I process it?) Results indeed are incredibly good. There are probably better A-D converters, but the Korg at DSD128 is at least very good.
I've got an editing software but the learning curve of learning how to use it effectively is too steep.
I plan to record it with a linestage in a signal chain.
I also will compare the recording with 24/96 vs. DSD to see if the gain in a file size justifies or not.
Which Korg are you using?
I buy mostly used LPs. I process my recordings with RX. It does not diminish the result. I use a very mild declick and high pass filter at 20 hz. Why listen to noise if you don't need to?
I feel the digital versions I make equal or exceed in the case of reduced noise, the originals.
I've digitized all of my vinyl using a Tascam DA-3000. Initially, it was to make copies for the car. Now I have a music server and enjoy the convenience, however sometimes I play LPs I've previously recorded. I have multiple DACs. My favorite, an Audio Note 2.1 Signature, resides in my main system. An exaSound E12 is in my headphone system. I also use an old Tascam to stream Tidal.
Have you tried using your DA-3000 as a DAC? It can be configured from the menu to act as a DAC although it doesn't have a USB DAC input. However, I think it is one of the best sounding DACs I've ever heard and I used to have a $3200 April Music Eximus DP1 . My TASCAM DA-3000 sounds just as good to me. I use an April Music Stello U3 USB-to-S/PDIF link to connect my computer's USB output to the DA-3000. I'd be curious to know how your TASCAM DA-3000's DAC compares to some of your other DACs.
Thanks,
John Elison
I've used the DA-3000 for playback but I haven't tried to compare it to the others. For me it's difficult unless it's comparing short segments within seconds of hearing that which I'm comparing to. My favorite is the Audio Note. They all sound good.
I prefer listening to vinyl from digital copies. I plan to make all future copies of my LPs in DSD 5.6M using my TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder. I have no idea how this information could be at all worthwhile to you, but it's worthwhile to me to make DSD copies of my vinyl LPs.
Have fun,
John Elison
I don't know anything about AD/DAC equipment, but it seems you've done part A and would be able to answer his question from actual experience (although I do not know what he considers "high end"..certainly the Nagra is that).
Do you find that the recordings preserve the vinyl sound experience? Does it eliminate the urge to "whip it out?"
Yes, I've always found that digital recordings of vinyl preserve the vinyl listening experience. I was actually shocked when I made my first DAT recording of vinyl in 1991 because I thought it would sound like a digital CD and it didn't. It sounded just like vinyl to me. However, I have always used topnotch digital recorders.
Best regards,
John Elison
Sounds like the $40 answer to me! :)
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