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Hi all,
First time post as I am returning to the world of vinyl after far too long away.
I have decided on this much of a new set up - Rogue Cronus Magnum II powering Harbeth P3ESR speakers. The blank spot is the turntable. I used to own a Merrill Heirloom. I enjoyed it except for the difficult set up.
The store where I listened to the Rogue with the Harbeths used a 2016 Planar 3 as the source. The complete system had a lot of synergy, but I felt the Rega could be improved. This led me to Groovetracer. After adding up a new subplatter, platter and power supply, the cost went from $1100 to $2000.
Now I am wondering if I am better off spending $2000 on a different turntable that does not need tweaking. Other options are the Clearaudio Concept, a VPI Scout, or (completely left field) a used Audiomeca Romance w/ Romeo arm. Unfortunately, they are not all in the same store, so I would not be able to listen back-to-back on the same system.
My main priority is accuracy. I want to be able to put on Kind of Blue and feel like I was in the room with Miles and crew.
I would appreciate any insights from others who have walked this road before me.
*Have Planar 3 owners been happy long term or does the upgrade bug hit soon?
*Same question for owners of the Clearaudio Concept, VPI Scout, or Audiomeca Romance.
*Has anyone compared the Planar 3, Concept, and Scout in the same system and, if so, what are your thoughts on each?
Thanks in advance.
Follow Ups:
Some good news, I increased my budget to around $4300 including cartridge. So maybe $3K or so for the table / arm and $1K for the cartridge.
I also found local places that sells something other than Rega or VP!.
The bad news is that the options are Linn LP12 or tables that are $6K +.
A Clearaudio for that money would no doubt be excellent. It's getting on years now but always liked the acrylic models (Champion, etc. and even the less expensive one), and heard a more modern slightly pricey model, excellent.
What about that Scout you were looking at? Do you like the sound of it?
I actually like the Scout JR better. More musical, stable tonearm bearings!
I have not heard the Classic model yet, but I find their more expensive models to sound amusical!
I personally would buy the Scout Jr, and spend the rest of the money on a cartridge and/or phonostage.
What type of sound do you favor?
I did not care for either of the VPI tables I heard - Scout or Prime. The Prime was better, but still left me flat.
Ideally, something that has the PRaT of the Rega with the accurate speed and bass weight of the VPI.
I heard the Clearaudio Concept and Ovation tables today, both using the Maestro MM cartridge.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner. The Concept was better (to my ears) than the Rega and the Ovation was another league entirely. The Ovation at $6500 w/o cartridge is out of my budget, so I am thinking that the Performance DC with Satisfy arm and a good MC will be just the ticket.
I believe the Performance DC normally comes with the Virtuoso V2 MM cartridge.
It can also be ordered without a cartridge.
My local dealer made me an offer I could not refuse on a package of the Ovation with Satisfy arm and Maestro cartridge. Done and done.
Not on your list, but worth mentioning:
Pioneer PLX-1000 direct drive
Ortofon 2M Black
Herbie's mat
I forget the Headshell, but it allows more room for screw alignment
3" maple block over raquetballs in furniture cups.
Sounds great. It looks like a DJ table, but as I've configured, punches well above it's weight class and doesn't break the bank.
Prefer it to the Rega P3-24 I had prior with all the Groovetracer updates.
See ya. Dave
.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
NT
Sorry. I just got tired of people suggesting turntables you couldn't audition when you had specifically said that was the problem.
Good Luck!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Glad someone was paying attention.
Sometimes you have to take a chance in life!
I am not willing to take a chance for $4K.
Have you heard the new RP3? How about the Linn?
Yes, both add too much coloration.
You need to hear the Scout with the right cartridge.
I am going to hear a Classic 2 with Ortofon Quintet Black using the SDS power supply next weekend. If that leaves me flat, then I clearly do not care for the VPI sound.
These tables can sound significantly better than most of the Ortofons can muster!
I have not heard the lower-priced Classics, but with the right cartridge, I find the Scouts to be the most musically engaging of the bunch.
I believe VPI recommends Ortofon for their tables. What cartridge do you recommend?
Well, a friend of mine has a Scout Jr, which came with the 2M Red. He quickly got rid of it in favor of an AT 150MLX. Unlike the Red, this combination offered agreeable results. He was happy.
Then he picked up an AT OC9 MKII, which is his current cartridge.
My understanding is that the Quintet line is an improvement from the 2M. The Black being the best in each line.
I am also hoping to hear Funk Firm and Roksan on my trip to Seattle.
You should at least find the Classic 2, with the Ortofon Quintet Black to be acceptable.
His current cartridge is actually a AT-OC9ML/III. LP Gear has it on sale for $499.95!
Thanks, but I don't see buying a cartridge I can't hear first since I won't with a table.
You can find demonstrations of these cartridges on YouTube.
I will pass on YouTube to make purchase decisions.
BTW, the problem with the Scout is the cartridge it comes with.
I'm no turntable expert and a while back purchased the Audio Note TT2 with their Arm 1(V2) and IQ 1 MM Cartridge.As I'm not a big fan of continuously screwing around with the turntable because for album X I need a certain height and then for album Y I need another screw around to get it just so - this table is dead easy.
It's a 3 point suspended design which is the only fussy think about it so it needs a very solid base (on wall) or concrete floors. But you can pretty much play everything without screwing around with. And since they have a brand new table at $8k out - you may see a lot of these AN TT1 and TT2 tables on the second hand market. These are built off the Systemdek IIx designs you may be more familiar with - but are all upgraded hot-rodded variants.
I also really like the Roksan Radius 5 and Xerxes. I actually had the guy get the box ready for me for the Radius but when the dealer offered up the last demo model in the store for the AN I took it. Largely because I already owned it while living in Canada so I knew what to expect.
I do like simple non fussy tables. Idiot proof. I find if I have to fiddle with it too much - I'll probably just put on a CD. And so it's definitely a worthwhile consideration IMO. Maybe the number one consideration. Indeed, even my TT2 - I have to change the belt for 45s. Umm I don't much play 45s as a result. So even the TT2 isn't as "user friendly" as I'd like it to be.
I have the non deluxe version which is considerably less money.
This is a recent review from Hi-Fi Choice. You may not like the old school styling. The new turntables are prettier in a new age sort of way.
Edits: 08/31/16
So I have narrowed my choices to:
- Origin Live Aurora MK3 - http://audiorevelation.com/products/origin-live-aurora-mk3-1-turntable/
- EAT C-Sharp - http://audiorevelation.com/products/eat-c-sharp-turntable/
- Well Tempered Amadeus MK2 - http://audiorevelation.com/products/well-tempered-amadeus-mk2-turntable/
Does anyone have any comments on these 3? The EAT is the best value because it is a demo unit.
High mass platter, isolated plinth of the *not* spring variety (my own Roksan Xerxes is similar that way) ... and the C Sharp it sure looks purdy!
While it may not be the popular choice here, but I would purchase the Well Tempered Amadeus. It's a set and forgot TT other than having to replace the string belt. Make a few extras and no problem. It punches well above its price point and you rarely find them used as owners love them. It's the last TT you will need to buy and it won't have you looking for something better. Just my two cents.
Thanks for the feedback. I look at the WT as fussy given the oil bath for the arm. Even the dealer said, "the WT is definitely the most time intensive - which doesn't matter so much during setup but it's azimuth tends to need adjustment every few weeks."
I'm still hesitant to buy without hearing first. I get the appeal of the used market, but I don't want to be flipping tables.
Azimuth adjustment is ridiculously simple on the Amadeus and can be done while the record is playing. The design does have its quirks, but none of them involve the arm. In terms of resolution and transparency, it is way beyond others I've heard in its price range. But you are wise to see and audition before buying if possible. But if you can't, Jay at Audio Revelation is a straight shooter, in my experience.
Edits: 08/31/16
Thanks. I like a lot of the design of the WTT, but I would not be able to hear it before buying.
So that brings me back to local options of a Planar 3 and upgrading with a new subplatter, platter, power supply, and an MC cartridge (bringing the cost to $3K) or just going with a VPI.
+1
Oh, so you're into the tweaky stuff.
That's fine. If I'd known that I would never have recommended Rega.
Good luck!
You'll be involved, like you want to be.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I guess it depends on your definition of "tweaky." I know I would want to replace the subplatter, platter, and power supply on the Rega, which I consider tweaking. I would rather get a table that I don't have any urge to upgrade.
I appreciate your response and, good luck with that.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Way back when, so to speak, I returned to vinyl courtesy of a Rega P3/2000. I was never happy regardless of the cartridge I used, and swapped it for a first generation VPI Scout. With the same cartridges, I got what I wanted (and couldn't get with the Rega) - speed accuracy, truth of timbre, and proper balance between bass and treble. I've been moving up the VPI line ever since and haven't looked back.
i don.t know how far you are wont to go with pricing. my friend has the pro-ject extension 10 and it is quite wonderful. going down the line in the pro-jects can't be a horrible idea.
example in link.
...regards...tr
Good timing on the Pro-Ject recommendation. I just came across a Pro-Ject RPM 9.2 Evolution for $900, which would allow me to get a really nice cartridge and still come in well under $2K.
and can cost as much as the turntable.
A good friend just bought the NEW Planar 3 for his son, and after he set it up I took a listen...wow...VERY impressed. $1200 with cart. The rest of the system was a Rogue RP-5 preamp, Geodesy amp, and Spatial M3 speakers.
Was really taken aback.
Yes. I would not single out any particular aspect.
Don't believe the whole "draining vibration through a point" thing.
I've spent years analyzing structural dynamics professionally, and I can
tell you it's hogwash.
The VPI design is good, and the Rega design is good. They are just different sounding.
Buy a VPI, see if you like it. I wouldn't sell the Rega yet.
You can probably get a good sense of it with a used older Scout for not too much $$.
If you like to fiddle around, the VPI is fun. The tonearm is tweaky.
Another thing: if you're using tubes with the P3ESRs, note that they will always be a bit bright, because of the shape of the impedance curve. See the Stereophile review, Measurements section.
I think they sound better with solid state.
I just got the new Planar 3 and it is outstanding. Much better than the older tables.
The new RB330 is outstanding. they fixed the midrange.
one dealer i visited said it was better than the RP8. I dont know about that but it is very good. and i havent even added the TT PSU
Me thinks one would have to spend quite a bit more for a substantial improvement. Add to that low maintenance, and you have a winner.
Agreed that the new Planar 3 sounds great. I just can't get past some of the design choices - low mass glass platter and not using an inverted bearing.
But don't sonics and reliability trump design choices?
As a happy RP6 owner, I'll reply.
I've had many turntables since the 1960's. Almost none of them would be considered high end today, some (Garrard changer) did not qualify even then. The last tt I had before the Rega was an original Oracle Delphi MKI bought from the first owner about year 2000. I was glad to see it go 3 or so years ago, too fiddly by half. I'm not a real patikler audiophile type so making sure all the springs are bouncing in the accepted way is not my idea of hi-fi fun, another good reason for me to go Rega. They are simple, elegant and work just fine.
Have written all that, I did go with all the Groovetracer mods. Why? Because I loved my RP6 so much that I wanted to tart her up. Differences? Pretty subtle as most such tweaks are. I think 'more solid' would sum it up nicely. Did I do any before and after comparisons? Not hardly, as we say down in Texas.
I bought the 6 from a dealer in Austin whom I've known personally for around 40 years. He has a salesman who has been setting up Regas for many years and does a fine job. I don't know anything about Rega cartridges but I have owned various Ortofons over the years so I opted for the 2M Black and I'm very happy with it. I don't feel a need to swap out cartridges so having a fixed head shell is not an issue with me, in fact, I prefer the one piece construction of the 303 arm.
Frankly, I think an untweaked P3 would be an excellent choice. I'm certain that Roy Gandy would agree that tweaks are unnecessary. I know nothing about VPI, I'm sure they're wonderful tables but looking around, I see a bevy, yes, a bevy of upgrades, add-ons and the latest thingamagig that will make them all better. It sounds expensive to me. I'll take the non-fussy simplicity of the Rega. I've never had a speck of trouble with it and it continues to entertain me every single day.
Mostly, for me, it's about the music. (You should be able to see pics of the table on my profile.)
I wish you good listening on your vinyl journey!
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I agree with the VPI sounding lackluster. The Clearaudio in this price range is too pedestrian new and I just can't come to spend that much on a Rega but of your new choices it is probably the best. I would go up in the line as much as you can afford.
I like the Lurne sound but unless you got that table for far less than $1K I agree I wouldn't touch it. Quirky French design, sounds good but often garage like industrial design. I had some Lurne pieces including the tonearm and it was quite good but maddening to set up .
I've found, through lots of lots of changes, that UK audio products play well together. Linn, Rega, Naim, Harbeth, etc. They have complementary sonic signatures.
My two cents. I had a VPI Scoutmaster for 6 years, with many, many cartridges, and struggled to get music out of it. It was always clinical and uninvolving. No fun. It could soundstage great, and all the hifi things, but never really did it for me.
It's a matter of personal taste ultimately. But if you like the PRaT
of Rega, you're not going to get that from VPI IMO. A used Linn, on the other hand...
Thanks all, good thoughts. I promptly eliminated the Audiomec Romance for reasons posted, which confirmed some of my doubts.
I do agree that the Rega > Rogue > Harbeth system has a great synergy, or "plays well together." My hesitation is that I don't care for the platter material on the Rega and I favor an inverted bearing from a physics standpoint. I still think that I would replace the subplatter, platter and get an outboard power supply. At that cost I am looking at a used Scout with an acrylic platter and inverted bearing.
I just have no way to compare them back to back. Given the variety of responses, how I hear Rega v VPI would likely differ from about half of the members. Ah, the joys of a subjective hobby.
"I just have no way to compare them back to back."
This where the "previously owned" market can be your friend. The cost of admission is much less and if it does not work out move it on for the next vinyl enthusiast to enjoy. Check out the Asylum Trader.
Edits: 08/30/16
Go with the RP6. It is under $2,000 and gets you higher up the ladder without upgrading. Inmate Travis has the RP6 and seems happy with it. Maybe he can share a few thoughts here.
Another choice to consider!
That's the one (Gem Dandy) I'd seriously look at within the sub 2K budget. If the OP can swing slightly less than 3k, a WTL Amadeus will definitely put Miles in the room.
"That's the one (Gem Dandy) I'd seriously look at within the sub 2K budget. If the OP can swing slightly less than 3k, a WTL Amadeus will definitely put Miles in the room."
Are you not aware of the WTL Simplex?
Yes, I'm aware of it. According to those who have went from the Simplex to the Amadeus over at AudioCircle, the Amadeus is the better value and easily worth the price difference. I own an Amadeus and I've never seen a Simplex (other than pics), so I'm taking them at their word.
For what it is worth, The Aurora is the best table that I have heard anywhere close to this price-range, offering a seductively alluring musicality when paired with the right cartridge and phonostage.
Yes, looks like a very interesting design that's been well reviewed. Apparently, it like a few other interesting possibilities are not on the radar however.
The Aurora was on his list of possible contenders, and if there was an component that I would be confident in suggesting a blind purchase of, this is it!
Would love to hear one along with the Polytable, but not possible where I live.
The Aurora MK3 is probably the best table of the bunch considering your qualifications.
If the C-Sharp proves to be musically satisfying, then there is no reason not to go for it.
I can't hear the WTL, GEM, or EAT before buying. No amount of online research / comments will replace my ears.
I agree with you Scott. You would that one could find a few more offerings in Portland.
"think" should have been in there somewhere!
Are you able to audition the Aurora?
As noted above, no.
Thanks, but $1500-2K is the top of my budget.
Then I'd be all over the Gem.
Settle on a cartridge first. You probably already are aware that not all cartridges are compatible with various tonearms from different manufacturers.
Rega? Well, it's a good product but they run a little fast. That could be the reason for this "prat" that many fans are enamored with. Also, if you are dead set on a Rega forget the Elys. To be quite honest I think that it sucks. There are many better cartridges that will work well on the Rega arm.
I was able to listen to a couple of VPI tables today - the Scout and the Prime. I think starting with the cartridge is spot on. The Scout had a Grado wood cartridge that significantly rolled off the highs to the point of being veiled. The Prime had a Dyna cartridge (I think the 20X2) and was a clear improvement. I would have gone Rega had I not heard the VPI / Dyna combo.At this point, I want to keep it to tables I can hear in person. In Portland, this means...
- Rega
- VPI
- EATThanks everyone for the great feedback.
Edits: 08/29/16
Been a Scout owner for over six years. My experience tells me the cartridge and phono preamp determine how it will sound. Previously I used Monolithic with Dyna 10x5 and Jolida with Denon 304. Looking back, their performance now seems lackluster compared to Soundsmith's Zephyr MIMC through a Sutherland 20/20. That wasn't the table's fault.
The original Scout has an inverted bearing. I don't believe the new model does.
I am not dead set on Rega, thus this thread.
My preferences in a turntable...
- Acrylic or Delrin platter.
- AC motor.
- Inverted bearing.
- $2K or less.
I am going through this same process of searching for my first TT since I started collecting silver discs in the late eighties. I have decided to go with the Polytable which I intend to order as soon as it comes up on top of the household budget priority list. I already bought a 2M mono SE as the first cartridge. Ortofon discontinued it but Acoustic Sounds still had some so I grabbed it. I foresee exploring mono jazz reissues for a year or two before I feel the need to buy a stereo cart. Now I'm trying to decide what phono stage I should buy. It's pretty much down to the Decware or the new Graham Slee Accession. Opposites in every way except price. I have an Audion 2A3 amp driving Rethm widebanders. I imagine I'd be happy with either choice in my system. The Accession is a new type of equalization technology that it supposed to be superlative. Whatdayall think? Hey Travis, I live in Spring Branch between Blanco and San Antonio.
I am not able to answer your question as directly as you may wish but I hope that I can add something.
If you are looking at a Rega Planar 3 but then fit all of the Groovetracer aftermarket parts it seems to me that you no longer really have what you started with. So why start with that in the first place? I think you are thinking along these lines already.
I do hear, not a Scout, but its bigger brother, a Scoutmaster, very regularly. I think that the Scoutmaster is an excellent turntable which offers much of what everyone wants. It comes with an arm that performs incredibly well and which is able to support cartridges well beyond its price range. So I am going to guess that the Scout has a major percentage of the Scoutmaster's performance so it is a good choice.
I spent several hours earlier in the year listening to various models from the Clearaudio range. Unsurprisingly they all had a similar house sound. This seemed partly to do with the carbon fibre/magnetic bearing arms they sport. I found them all to be excessively "polite" with transient or impulse sounds compressed. However the arm for the Concept (if it is selected)is not quite the same as those on the more expensive turntables so I could be wrong for this model.
Audiomeca Romance? No way. The company is out of business and the turntable design is both quirky and, apparently, easily develops faults. No support is offered of course. Even when it was in business, Pierre Lurne (the designer) was not noted for answering emails seeking assistance. Spares unavailable. Just Google it and see what you come up with.
So , given your choices, I would be running to get the VPI.
Will have to respectfully disagree here, though I have no horse in the race. I owned a Scoutmaster and, while the sound was very clean and had some nice weight to it, I ultimately found it lacking in rhythmic drive and musical vibrancy (I had the same problem with other VPI turntables I've owned). Also, I often got an electrical pop from the tonearm junction box which once blew out an amplifier channel. The Rega sound is all about rhythmic momentum (PRAT, if you will, even though I hate the jargon, perhaps at the expensive of some bass weight and low-level detail.That said, if I had a 2k budget I'd look on the used market for something higher up the line, and thereby hopefully keep the upgrade bug in its est a little longer.
Edits: 08/29/16
Fair enough. Of course there were several versions of the Scoutmaster with different platter materials , suspension feet or cones etc. My friend's is the version with thick acrylic platter and cone feet.
I have to say that having spent many happy hours listening to it I haven't been aware of any lack of rhythmic ability or vibrancy. Maybe it was down to the choice of cartridge in the JMW 9 arm? My friend has a Lyra Skala installed. In fact so good did the Skala sound that I went and bought one. What were you using?
I think that the Rega is a good turntable but the OP's posting appeared to rule it out for his tastes unless heavily modified.
Completely agree - the Scout was one of the worst TT I ever owned - fussy and not worth the effort - to the OP buy a Rega and forget about it - then listen to music not the gear!
I have owned the Planar 3 and the VPI Scout. Both sound great, but not really in the same league in my opinion. I kept the Scout for about 8 years. The P3 for a couple years, and felt the upgrade urge sooner. Loved the Rega arm, and the simplicity of the P3 design. It always was musical, and fun to listen to.
When I went to the Scout, I felt like I could finally relax, forget about the equipment, and enjoy my LP collection, without thinking: '' I wonder how much better this LP would sound if I changed this or that".
There were many instances of what you describe as musi ians playing in the room. Used an ARC PH3-SE, and tube amplification.
The only thing I did not like with the Scout, was the "feel" of cueing up a record with the JMW memorial tonearm.II'll do not care for the unipivot design, where the tonearm is bananced on a pin head. I got nervous handling it. Although I found absolutly nothing to fault in the sound.
I am a left arm amputee, which may account for my nevousness with handling such a delicate arm. Don't know. After about 8 years, I found a deal on an Oracle Delphi III. A table I have lusted after for a while. I love it, but can't say it is a night and day difference from the Scout. Nevrr heard the Clearaudio, but between P3 and Scout, its a no brainer IMHO.
Good luck.
MG16
I think it does everything right except make you relax into the music.
I haven't experienced that yet, but that is what I would want!
I have a lot of experience with the elements of your system.
Here's my advice:
* Stick with the Rega. I have a VPI and it will sound too neutral and boring. I just got a new Planar 3 and the synergy is excellent with the P3's. I use a Naim Nait XS. The Harbeths benefit from a lot of "kick" and control in the bass, which is what Rega gives you.
* I find the Harbeths sound better with the SS Naim than with the tubes.
They need a lot of grip on the bass.
What is your cartridge? That's extremely important. I tried several and am now using a Goldring 1042, which sounds great with the Planar 3
My cartridge is TBD. The Planar 3 comes as a package with the Elys 2.
I've loved my Concept, and when a mistake on my part caused some problems, Clearaudio repaired it at no cost with free return shipping (via its US distributor Musical Surroundings) even though it was past warranty.
Mine came with the Concept MM, which is surprisingly good although I ultimately replaced it with a Virtuoso Wood. It also worked great with a Grado Reference Master. I get more detail with the Wood and more butter with the Grado, so I assume the turntable is largely staying out of the way and letting the carts do their thing.
I don't love that the anti-skate and speed adjustment controls are both a pain in the ass to access, although the current models have relocated the speed control to a much friendlier spot.
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