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In Reply to: RE: with a grooveless shiny flat surface? posted by M3 lover on August 25, 2016 at 09:58:42
I think you've misinterpreted what you've read. The groove does not create the pull; it's the moving vinyl surface. Penguin explains it correctly in his post below. It doesn't matter if the moving surface is flat or grooved, there will still be friction when the stylus presses against a moving surface. Both Frank Schroder and Peter Ledermann recommend using a flat grooveless vinyl surface for setting antiskating and I agree with them.
Follow Ups:
"If one sets the stylus on a smooth surface of a record (at the end, in-between the run out grooves) �" the tip of the stylus has a drag on the surface that while not equal to, is "standardized" enough to allow it to be used to adjust the Anti-Skating. This is due to a calculation of "force per unit area" with consideration of the rheology of the material �" vinyl. Suffice it to say that since it has been reverse engineered and calibrated properly, this method works well. It then becomes an easy matter to set the A-S and observe the movement of the arm. For a given VTF (any amount of VTF) �" set the A-S so that the arm VERY SLOWLY drifts inwards when placed on the SURFACE (NOT IN A GROOVE) at the end of a record. "Contained in the above paragraph is the understanding that the "tip of the stylus" has a different "drag" on a flat surface than the two contact areas of the stylus when that stylus is in the groove.
Peter further states "Frank Schroder and I are of the same opinion about antiskating �" and that makes MOST records that provide an "anti-skating track" totally in error �" many are recorded at about 80-90% modulation -OR MORE, or have increasing levels of modulation as the track progresses and expect you to set the A-S force so that there is no distortion at all at any level of modulation (or equal amounts on both channels if the cartridge tracks poorly). "
Which makes it clear that he understands that the level of modulation in the groove changes the skating force.
"the tip of the stylus has a drag on the surface that while not equal to, is "standardized" enough to allow it to be used to adjust the Anti-Skating."
Which is not the same as saying that the tip of the stylus on a flat surface creates the same amount of skating force as a stylus in a modulated groove.
Peter is not making that case.
He, in fact, is explaining that even though the drag is different ("that while not equal to, is "standardized" enough") it still a good way to set the anti skate.
I believe that is debatable.
I think you should question your own understanding (not mine) of the laws of physics.
In any event it doesn't take an understanding of physics, it just takes some common sense.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/25/16 08/25/16 08/25/16
Regarding:
"Which makes it clear that he understands that the level of modulation in the groove changes the skating force. "
Not so. Average skating force stays the same.(Some claim that VTF is increasing, but it does not seem that anyone managed to measure it. Thus my opinion is that if there is a difference it is negligible.)
By your statement it appears that you misunderstand the purpose and how the test works.
Intent is to produce the same level of distortion in each channel which means that the force exerted at each grove wall is the same, which menas that the antiskating force is at an optimum value. Increased level is needed as different cartridges will mis-track at different levels.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
"Not so. Average skating force stays the same. Increased level is needed as different cartridges will mis-track at different levels."If I understand you correctly you are saying that, for the same amount of skating force, different cartridges need different antiskating force and a high level of modulation in the groove just shows this difference (between the cartridges) while not changing the skating force?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/26/16
Cartridge tracking capabilities differ, that is why increasing levels are needed.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
After I posted, I though that's what you meant.
Here's the problem I have with that thinking.
The purpose of AS is to counter the skating force and get the stylus to place the same tracking force on both sides of the groove.
If you have a cartridge that will track well even though there is not as much tracking force on the right side of the groove as there is on the left side of the groove then so be it.
But that's not the same as fully compensating for the skating force and having the tracking force equal on each side of the groove.
With the skating force properly compensated for the stylus will wear evenly.
Just getting the cartridge to track, even when the forces are not the same, will not ensure even stylus wear.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That is why different modulation levels are needed, to practically force cartridge to miss-track evenly which indicates correct AS force.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
I've never said that the tip of the stylus on a flat surface creates the same amount of skating force as a stylus in a modulated groove. It depends on the shape of the stylus. Some shapes might come very close to having the same force.
However, I agree completely with Peter Ledermann and Frank Schroder when it comes to skating force and antiskating force.
Best regards,
John Elison
If "the tip of the stylus on a flat surface [isn't guaranteed to] create the same amount of skating force as a stylus in a modulated groove" and "It depends on the shape of the stylus" then the method is a crap shoot.
I am not saying that I have a better one. I'm just saying that it's a crap shoot.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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