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I haven't listened to 78s since 1953.They were good sounding as a kid back then. My dad disposed of them in 1955 or so.
The question is: Are there any very high quality sounding 78s?
Can the frequency response come close to a high quality LP?
Follow Ups:
Hi Violinist3,The quick answer is yes there are. As with tape, faster is better, all else being equal. Better heads and better tape have permitted lower speed. In like manner better material for the records and smaller styli have permitted slower speeds.
I have linked a microgroove 78 from the early 50s on the Audiophile label. The name of the label is no exaggeration. It is mono but even today deserves to sit next to my Sheffield records.
OK, I'm guessing that you mean "normal" standard groove 78s. With those you have to listen with the mindset of the period in which they were recorded. As one poster in this thread said "listen to the music not the sound".
There will be a noticeable difference between acoustic and electrically recorded records. This change was about 1925. That is not to say acoustic records won't give pleasure. I enjoy mine but not when my wife is in the room. By the late '30s electrical recording was fairly mature and even shellac compounds were getting better (quieter) and those records can sound quite good though not as quiet as vinyl. During WW2 vinyl started to appear and even 78s with standard grooves pressed into vinyl can rival Lps. Also those records were "direct to disc" which to me gives a lively sound and presence which will grab your attention.
My main 78 cartridge is a Shure M44 body with a N44-3 stylus. Sadly Shure no longer makes that stylus but Esoteric Sound has styli for the M44 as well as other cartridges. One which is grabbing my attention is an elliptical for 78s. They have sound samples comparing it with a conical. I'm close to reaching for the plastic. I have had Styli re-tipped with 3 mill styli for my Sonus Blue and a B&O SP 12. They also are very good. I also have a classic mono GE RPX which I like a lot for mono Lps and 78s. With the stereo cartridges I highly recommend summing to mono.
My re-tipped styli were done by someone who posts on this form who did not want to be "outed". I get the idea it was a fair PITA and he didn't want to be up to his eyeballs with requests to have this done. Thank you unnamed re-tipper!
Phil
Edits: 05/05/16
...are indeed really good. I own most of them, but even better are some of the recent 10" ones that the Tompkins Square label produced for Record Day. We played those at RMAF a couple of years ago, and they were probably the most dynamic records in our room.
I heard about those 10 inch. My 50s jazz microgroove is on red vinyl. Very nice. I forgot thevguys name......Red something I think.
ET
nt
No I would have remembered him. It was someone I had notvheard of. I got it fom Dave at Capitsl Audiofest. I bet he remembers.
ET
nt
nt
axolotl
I was windering if the un¿named re'tipper would want to re'tip for a weekend in South Beach _ WTF my question mark has been replaced by an underscore. anyway...
Hi Manny,
He may see this and PM you or out himself if he wants to but without his permission I don't feel right about doing it.
Phil
When I started restoring old hi-fi for clients I wanted some good 78s. I found several that were nice. I got the best one from AA inmate Vinylphanatic. They can sound really good. Especially a modern 78 cart, pa good modern table and proper EQ for 78s
ET
I have never heard a 78 that equals a 33 or 45 in quality. Are you using the regular bar or the "let women into the NFL" bar?
No its nice. Surprisingly so. Even the shellac ones can sound good. They roll off sooner on top and dont have the bass authority the nicer vinyl 78s I have do. The vinyl ones can be very impressive.ET
Edits: 05/05/16
The Rock and Pop 78's from the late 50's (especially the ones pressed on
vinyl) are phenomenal, they easily beat the 45, LP or CD version.
Unfortunately hard to find now in good condition.
I have found that 78s in good condition in my local market place tend to be few and far between. Appearance seems to eliminate many bad ones but a good appearance does not seem to ensure a clean sounding record. I have found the same with LPs, of course, but the yield seems even lower with 78s. That said, I am glad to have the capability to play the good ones and there is this feeling of reaching back in time while listening to some older 78s.
My 78 cart is the AT-MONO3/SP and I use the Rek O Kut Audiophile Archival Preamp MkII as the phono preamp because it has one 78 Equalization setting. I tried 78 styli in my Stanton 681EEE and a cheap Pickering but the AT sounds much better.
Good luck!
Mike
My father had an extensive collection of 78's. I got him an Elac Miricord table in the 90's, and later a Dual to play them. He greatly enjoyed being able to play them again. I listened with him often, and I don't recall the frequency response being very wide in either direction. I do recall many performances being well worth the listen. I still have his 78 collection. I am in the process of resurrecting his mono Brociner preamp and a Garrard Type A to give them a listen again. I also have a Rek-O-Kut, but it needs a lot of work, so I will start with the Garrard. I will let you know, but my previous experience says to listen for the music, not the sound.
Dave
I'm old enough that the first records given to me as a youngster were 78 albums -
Gene Autry singing "Back In The Saddle Again", "Tumblin' Tumbleweeds", etc.
Spike Jones "Nutcracker Suite"
Bozo The Clown "Bozo Under The Sea"
All of them long gone now.
But importantly was the story from Doug Sax that he was inspired to try direct to disc recording LPs because of the presence and aliveness he heard on some of the better 78s. That suggested to him the advantages of eliminating the master tape process.
Now for my question. I still have a 78 album of Louie Armstrong and his All Stars from my dad's collection. I have a table with 78 speed but need an inexpensive cartridge. There are Stanton, Shure, and Grados identified as 78 cartridges but what are the stylus sizes and are they true monos or strapped stereo cartridges (or simply stereo cartridges [not strapped] with large conical styli)? Any recommendations?
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
was Rosemary Clooney singing This Old House with Mambo Italiano on the back.BTW, here is the songwriter, Stuart Hamblen, doing This Old House. The bass in both was Thurl Ravenscroft.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Edits: 05/06/16 05/06/16
Stuart Hamblen, in addition to his music career, ran for president of the United States in 1952 as a prohibitionist. In his earlier days he was quite fond of the sauce. By the way I too am a Rosemary Clooney fan and I like that song.After his conversion at a Billy Graham crusade he wrote It Is No Secret What God Can Do. Also a good song.
Phil
Edits: 05/06/16
I learn the oddest little things here. I LOVE odd little things.
Thank you Phil.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Depending on the vintage of the 78 rpm discs, with 3 mil styli as the "standard" size, there was the chance that someone played the old discs with the old steel needles. If they did not care to replace the nail, I mean the steel needle, before each play, those discs could have been "scored" and "chiseled" forever. Likewise, if the old spinner used a worn sapphire stylus or even a worn diamond, the old 78s could have significant wear at the 3 mil standard "depth of groove" area.
This fact is why many phono cartridge stylus manufacturers offered 2.7 mil styli instead of an actual 3 mil size. That way, the stylus could "reach below" the possible wear and ride some clean groove areas. Shure only offered 2.7 mil. Some Pickering 78 styli were 2.7 and some were 3 mil. A mil is one thousandth of an inch. So, polishing, or actually grinding then polishing an extra three one-hundredths of a thousandth off is not a huge difference. Aftermarket styli usually list a 3 mil; but they might really be 2.7 mil. A slightly thinner size of 2.5 mil was offered by GE for old Transcription discs for their VR RPX and VR-II carts. There is a size to avoid, which is 2 mil; the so-called "compromise size" which is only useful in rare occasions. Obviously, playing a 78 with a stereo size (.7 mil wide) or mono size (1 mil wide) stylus will result in playback noise and undue wear.
The OP should know that his rare Louie Armstrong discs and most publicly offered 78s were "cut" presuming playback with a 3 mil conical stylus. We can easily get "carried away" with which brand to seek out. Currently, even Audio Technica offers mc carts with 78 tips. Recent Ortofon mm carts can be ordered with 78 styli. Ortofon was "king of the mono mc carts" way back when and there are many analog collectors who will not be without their vintage Ortofon mc carts. Ortofon offered 65 micron size for 78s and 25 micron size for mono LP/45s. Fairchild should also be mentioned, as can Pickering for USA made mono phono carts that rivaled Ortofon. Unfortunately, 1950s vintage Ortofon, ESL (made by Ortofon) and Fairchild MAY require rebuilding( pricey )these days. However, anyone who has had this rebuilding done keeps these treasured rebuilt vintage carts.
Keep in mind that playback of 78s is a very "forgiving" hobby. We do not "need" high dollar gear to thoroughly enjoy 78s. This statement is debatable; so let me be more specific. Mono 78s have limited bandwidth. While they do not "require" the best tables/arms/carts with the best specs, better playback systems can certainly elicit "better" response than say an old mono record changer with a GE Variable Reluctance RPX or VR-II cart. I mention the GE VR carts because they are THE vintage magnetic cart that were the most popular when the home hifi market blossomed post WW-II through the 1950s and well into the 1960s. That old record changer, even with a decent ceramic cart, can elicit some jaw-dropping 78 rpm playback. Mono tables of yesteryears tended to have rumble when stereo discs were later played on them. In mono, these 78 rpm discs can tolerate some noisy motor/bearing/idler turntable noise as this noise is predominately "vertically oriented" and mono carts(or stereo carts summed for mono) are much less affected than stereo carts playing stereo discs.
A quick mention of some pleasant ceramic carts for 78s is actually in order. That early stereo three terminal RCA cart with swivel stylus, some early to mid-1950s EV mono carts and the 1960s and 1970s Philips ceramics (both mono and stereo versions with a small metal collar around the stylus) are worthy. Now, back to mm and mc carts for most of our crowd...
Grado offered an mm with elliptical 78 tip; very obscure stylus. As coffee-phil mentioned, there are stateside aftermarket styli vendors offering ellipticals for Shure and Stanton carts. As these elliptical diamonds will trace the "rarely available on 78s' high frequencies" better than a conical, some collectors will want this possibility to be explored. I have seen the Grado tip close-up and it is of very nicely polished quality. I also have seen a few Expert Stylus "truncated ellipticals" which means their actual tip point is truncated or "rounded off" to avoid bottoming out in the grooves; very groovy (!) BTW, Expert Stylus (in the UK)styli quality is outstanding. They have or can retip your Stanton or Shure with many sizes and shapes available. They are always highly recommended.
If you surf the stateside online vendors, make sure they have good feedback and possible return policies. There are one or two that actually resell the Expert Stylus of UK offerings. For the "easy on the budget" concerned, the Stanton 500/Pickering V-15 and Shure M44/M55 are among the most popular with the currently working transcription studios. And, let me tell you, there are probably many, many more transcription studios actually working today than there ever were....
Hi IT,
Thanks for your detailed response.
The Armstrong album was a live recording from a concert at Town Hall in NYC in 1947. It is on RCA and I assume was released in '47 or '48. I remember we had a console player then (most certainly post-war) so no fear they were played with a steel "nail". ;^)
Based on your comments, and a few others here, I looked through my cartridge collection. No idea where they came from but I found a couple of Pickering bodies. Searching online I found a 78 stylus is available for one (3 mil). I have a Technics SP-10 Mk 2 which may be overkill but has little concern for rumble. Also, I'm expecting to receive a Dual 1229 from a friend who hasn't used it in 20 years. Obviously that will allow stacking if I'm ever tempted to try that (once lubrication maintenance has been done on the Dual). The Dual will be a nostalgia piece for a second system since my first stereo included a 1009.
Also, I won't worry any longer about finding a true mono 78 cartridge. I'll simply rely on a 78 stylus and "mono" button. And I will give further thought to an outboard phono EQ since I could also utilize that for early mono LPs.
Anyway, the help here is greatly appreciated and hopefully useful to the OP as well.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Hi Interstage Tranny,
I love that changer! When I was a kid I had a 78 changer. I believe it was a Webster Chicago. I traded it for something.
By the time I got into Hi Fi, changers were regarded as of the Devil. I don't think I ever installed the changer spindle in my Dual 1229Q. At the time when I owned that machine I was not into 78s.
Now that I am into 78s I have no changer but I have some 78 albums which just scream for a changer. Imagine playing a Brahms symphony from a 78 album set up for a changer on a manual machine with an SME arm. They say that vinyl is more engaging than CDs, but 78 albums on a single play machine just might be too much engagement.
I'm pretty sure a Dual 1229 would do a fine job and if one comes along at a price I'm willing to pay I'll go for it but what you have or my old Webster Chicago look the part to set the atmosphere to play my 78 albums. After I catch up on my projects I need to look for one to love and restore. I will likely put my RPX into it.
Phil
Aside from the Shure V15/III elliptical 78, their others (V15/II-M75 / M91 / M95 - original conicals) don't hold a candle in terms of speed/dynamics/clarity: they 'sit on' the sound to varying degrees. The M44 surely is even worse by dint of that clunky cantilever.
The only one I've not set up is the M97 elliptical - quite possibly near equal with the V15/III. An ADC XLM/R78 seems no better, for some reason.
If you want 'coarse/muffled sounds' then the Stanton 500/M44 must be the way to go; but even a 1928 78 can have <~18kHz engraved.
Toscanini's 1936 New York 'Lohengrin' Act3 prelude still sounds pretty good!
Hi Frank,
That sample which you gave certainly sounds good but I'm pretty sure that If I had the shellac disc on my highly hacked KD 500 with SME arm and Shure M44 with the N44-3 it would sound as good. Would I love to have a V15-3 with the stylus for 78s? Of coarse I would, but the M44 is not crap.
Phil
"but the M44 is not crap".
Hi, Phil.
Andrew Rose ('Mr.Pristine') would doubtless agree - and Obert-Thorn (uses Stanton 500) would say similar - but having compared the 'better' Shure's my comment would stand (all NOS stylii) as you wouldn't expect those, with LP variant styli, to sound 'as good' as a V15/III: going down $$-wise the inherent SQ becomes hefty/confined.
Part of the story is the cantilever - part the coils.
The file really isn't heard at its best - there's more 'space/dynamic freedom' with the 24/48 original - most folks go for my 'noisy' dubs as 24bit!
Try finding an M97 - mine was a 2015 stylus purchase (£16.50) - missed out on the M97G NOS complete (sold @ just over £30) - should be much easier to find in the US...only not heard it in 78 mode as have my only M97 (HE, etc) in another deck/system..
Hi M3 lover,
My recommendation would be to find the cartridges in you collection which you like and search for a 78 stylus for at least one of them. I know Dave is not liking Shure and the current 78 cartridge offering does not get a lot of love in the fast spinning crowd. I'm guessing it is a quality control issue. I love my Shure M44 body with my N44-3 for 78s. If you have a cartridge which Esoteric Sound has a 78 stylus for, I don't think you will go wrong. I have 78 styli for my Shure as well as my Sonus and B&O SP12 which are stereo cartridges. I sum them in phase for lateral mono and out of phase for vertical records and they all are excellent. I also have a "real" mono cartridge which I love. It is an old GE RPX. It however is "off the table" for stereo or vertical cut records.
Phil
Thanks Phil, and Dave,
Good idea about Esoteric Sound. I looked at their Re-Equalizer some time ago since I have many early mono LPs. I wouldn't buy that just to play four 78s but to utilize for both mono LPs and 78s?, maybe so.
And I do have a few MM carts from Grado, Shure (including an old M3D though 78 styli may no longer be available), Pickering, and who knows what else. So I should be able to find a 78 stylus for one of those at a reasonable price. The Sachmo records are classic recordings so I'd like decent sound but don't want to pay several hundred to have that. And a mono button may be good enough rather than finding a true mono 78 cartridge.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
... the only Shure 78 cart I dislike is the one they sell specifically for 78 use, the model M78S. The ones you recommend -- 78 rpm stylus assemblies for regular stereo Shure carts -- may sound perfectly fine (I haven't heard any). I've owned two M78 carts over the years -- can't believe i bought the second one -- and they were both truly dreary and lifeless.
Hi Dave,
I seem to remember someone on Vinylengine having grief with an M78S and the seller giving him a replacement stylus which he was satisfied with. That is why I'm suspecting quality control issues.
I'll have to look for that string.
Phil
Stanton and Grado (not Shure) are good bets. I'm currently using the Ortofon in their 2M series and recommend it.
Some discs can sound wonderful. However remember that the medium covers 50 or 60 years at least of recording history and that this period contained great changes in technology including that from acoustic to electrical recording.It is therefore difficult to generalise.
As for frequency response early electrical 78 discs had a response from 100 Hz to 5 KHz. In later years this had improved considerably and looking at the eq curves applied by manufacturers ( similar to RIAA eq but without a standard) a response to 20 KHz was envisaged. However envisaged is the word as microphones and cutter heads of the time were normally unable to maintain a flat response to anything like this upper frequency ( this also affects the practical frequency response of early LPs).
I have one, a jazz 78 led by Lucky Thompson playing "Just One More Chance" that I bought new around 1948 and have played to death, that still sounds as good as anything in mu collection -- open reel tapes, CD/SACDs, vinyl. Mono of course. I always haul it out for audiobuddies who have never heard 78s. It is, as the saying goes, jaw-dropping.Other 78s, maybe led by a Coleman Hawkins solo called "Picasso." also from 1948, aren't far behind. And I can play certain disks of music I have on 78s and other media -- e.g., performances by Artie Shaw's Grammercy Five -- where the 78 versions are easy victors over the others.
Edits: 05/05/16
scoot a bit farther into the future and the blues and R&B recordings from 1950's
have a presence, naturalness and impact that can shame most modern recordings.
Even on a mid fi system with a marginal 78RPM stylus the quality of most 78 recordings
I've heard has been outstanding.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
...and we don't need to break the bank to experience very satisfying 78 rpm playback...Here is an early 1950s Voice of Music record changer with a GE RPX cart playing through a lightly upgraded GE phono preamp with single 12AX7 tube. Early mono record changer tables in working order can be had for around $100., plus another $50.- $75. for a GE VR cart with good stylus. Connected to your RIAA phono preamp, clean discs will sound very enjoyable.
But I heard that an RIAA profile (curve..whatever) is not good for 78s.
I'm only saying that's what I've heard... I have no f-ing clue. Soon though I will be able to listen and have a real opinion... but for now, I'm asking why an RIAA vs "NON sTANDARD" I keep hearing that things like the "slee" preamp are what you want for 78s.
Hi MannyAs Interstage Tranny said 78s played through an RIAA stage will sound a bit rolled off. They will however sound OK. Since the days of electrical recording equalization was used. The curves were in the early days not published and were proprietary to the recording companies. RIAA will be closer to those curves than no curve at all.
It is said acoustic records have no EQ, but even there the meaning is unclear. Are they constant amplitude or constant velocity? A magnetic cartridge with no EQ is constant velocity. My mono stage can do no EQ (constant velocity) or constant amplitude. Acoustic records sound "more correct" to me constant amplitude. I have played them back with RIAA EQ and they sometimes sound a bit better to me. For acoustics I usually start with RIAA or constant amplitude then tweak the treble corner to best suit me.
For electrically recorded 78s ideally one should look in the table which another poster provided for the label and vintage and select the bass turn and treble cut accordingly. I'm lazy. For electrical 78s I usually set the bass turn to 300 Hz and the treble corner to 3180 Hz and not worry over it.
In my view more important than having the exact EQ is properly summing the channels. My stage does this for lateral cut records (mono Lps and most 78s) or for vertical cut records such as Edisons and Pathes.
I posted the schematic of my phono stage on this forum a few years back. If you want to build one for your use I'd be perfectly happy. Of course if you want to sell it we should talk. I can't find it here now but it is at Vinylengine. I have an upgrade to the input switching in my head which I have yet to implement in the hardware. If you want to build on you may as well include that, so ask and I'll put it to paper and scan it.
Phil
Edits: 05/06/16
From mid-1954/1955 forward, the RIAA EQ curve was supposed to have been adopted by all record manufacturers; especially stateside. For an entry into the playback world of 78s, the RIAA curve (and possibly some tone control or equalizer action employed) will yield a good start...Variable EQ is a nice option to have, as are certain available equalizers. I can tell you that my Savoy label jazz 78s and Checker label blues/rock 78s sound awesome with "simple" RIAA preamps. When you start avidly acquiring many 78 discs of many vintages and conditions, then variable EQ plus tone controls and high slope notch filters(to cut inherent noise) can come in real handily. With standard RIAA EQ, bass is boosted and treble is rolled off; so, there is already a HF cut employed which can be endearing sounding with many "average condition" early discs. 78s with clean sounding highs above 9-12KHz are scarce...
Graham Slee preamps with variable EQ are rarely offered second-hand. That is a strong indicator; particularly considering their high dollar budget. Graham is a champion for my favorite type of playback EQ: active feedback phono EQ. I applaud his efforts and wish I could afford the Revelation or Jazz models. In fact, I would welcome a listening session utilizing Slee preamps versus my choices of preamps within my locale...
Then again, whenever I compare my modest tube preamps with pricey solid state preamps, I always seem to prefer the tube preamps and amps. YMMV and that is fine...Remember, your enjoyment factor is a very subjective, personal strife...I can tell you what system combos I enjoy; but you may have different combos in mind that will also produce your full enjoyment...Isn't that what we are all hoping to attain ? Enjoyable listening sessions....
Sounds like agood time is waiting to be had.
I've still got some work to do with my "regular" system but as soon as I have it a little more squared away I will take a look at these fascinating 78 options.
I will most likely end up with some kind of two-turntable setup the second being a 78 only with its own preamp. The conundrum is if this setup can also be put through my regular stereo setup. I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Hi Manny,
I play my 78s on my regular system. I have a Kenwwood KD500 which I modified to play 16 2/3, 33 1/3, 45, and 78.26 RPM quartz locked. To do 80 RPM I have to turn off the quartz lock and use a strobe.
I do have a dedicated phono stage for mono.
The same audio feeds both channels and I think it sound fine.
Hopefully in the future a 78 stacker will join the Kenwood. I don't expect the changer to sound any better than the Kenwood or even as good but I have a bunch of 78 albums of extended works and stopping to flip records over does a job on the continuity of the music.
Phil
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
preamp that I have in my Alaska system. However, in my other location, I am going cheap and complicated by using the information in the link below along with a RIAA preamp and a Pioneer SG-9 equalizer. I obtained both the RIAA preamp and the equalizier for a very cheap price compared to purchasing another vintage equalizer from KAB or Esoteric Audio.
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