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Model: | Prime |
Category: | Turntables |
Suggested Retail Price: | $3,800.00 |
Description: | All the right pieces |
Manufacturer URL: | VPI Industries |
Review by Drew769 on November 27, 2015 at 22:08:05 IP Address: 108.35.124.217 | Add Your Review for the Prime |
i'm adding my review of the VPI Prime as a follwo up to Bill Stephenson's review of this table. Coincidentally, Bill and I apparently have very similar setups: I also run my Prime with an Ortofon Cadenza Black cartridge, and the Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Roadrunner Tachometer. I posted a video review of these devices on YouTube. My Prime is one of the first units produced by VPI, serial #22. As such, it has the earlier version of their 3D-printed tonearm, which includes the all-in-one-piece molded finger lift, as opposed to the later metal addition. I'm not sure which version is better sonically, as the lift on mine is quite large. The new design is more a function of the earlier ones being snapped off whilst in transit than any performance reason. (I've heard another Prime with the same cartridge and the new tonearm, and it's a non-issue.)
I did not set up my cartridge on my table, but instead left that work to my dealer, Soundstage Direct. I did, however, do my home set-up, including leveling the table. The Prime is very easy to set up and level, thanks to the excellent feet (called Prime Feet, as opposed to HRX or Mini-HRX feet) of a new design for this table. They have ball bearings built into the tips, and they are a breeze to set using a bubble level. I have also further isolated my Prime using a 2" Boos Block maple cutting board and some HVAC isolation blacks - an effective combination in lowering vibrations even further from the stock set-up. The table really looks great - muscular, purposeful, and attractive with the curves in the plinth and the black and silver contrasts throughout. It's the new Darth Vader of the VPI lineup.
If you watched my video of the Eagle and Roadrunner with this table, you will see that my speed results in stock form are almost exactly what Bill experienced with his table. The Prime indeed runs a tad fast in stock form, although it is not unstable - the Roadrunner showed the stock table to run fast, albeit with a tight speed tolerance. The available speed adjustment in my Prime using the belt position on the tapered drive spindle is not enough too correct (lower) the speed to 33.33, but the Eagle unit combined with the Roadrunner fixed that problem. Whether or not the speed adjustment is critical to you probably depends more on your music tastes (solo pianos obviously require more care than Led Zep). For the modest investment for the two boxes, and the added benefit of switchable speed on the fly without futzing with the belt, I'd say they are worth it. Are they essential? Of course not.
I first heard the Prime at the New York Audio Show in 2014, and quickly ordered one to replace my VPI Scout. Thay demonstration table was wearing a Cadenza Bronze, the step just below the Black, but with a warmer signature than the more analytical bigger brother. Honestly, the Prime has an uncanny ability (like many great tables) of elevating whatever cartridge is mounted to it. The Bronze Cadenza was beautiful, smooth, non-fatiguing without being rolled-off. My Cadenza Black in my system exposes everything in the music, for better or worse. It is dead quiet, however, and also non-fatiguing. At this year's New York show, a VPI Prime was being demonstrated in one of the rooms wearing a venerable Denon D103R cartridge - a product that can be had for roughly the sales tax you pay on a Prime - and it shined brightly. So beautiful was the 103R and Prime combination that I couldn't help but wonder where the $2300 difference is between that and the Cadenza Black. There are many great choices in affordable phono catridges, and with the Prime you may want to explore some of these choices, particularly if it helps allowing one to afford this $3,800 table.
The Prime also includes the VTA-on-The-Fy adjustable knob base. Its operation is simle - loosen two thumbscrews and you can set the VTA of the arm in micro adjustments by simply turning the large calibrated knob. Turn clockwise, it goes lower - counterclockwise raises it. Personally,, I have tried to avoid playing with this adjustment. It is very very small, assuming your cartridge is set correctly from the start, and I find that I become a paranoid listener by tweaking too much. Sometimes, you need to set it, annd just enjoy the music.
With the Prime, you lower the 3D arm, and you hear music. It has an effortless quality in extracting music from your records. You will hear more details on albums you've heard a million times before. You will spend hours and hours into the evening rediscovering your collection, guaranteed. Compared with my Scout, there is a similar signature, but just more of it - more air, more space, more detail, more soundstage, more enjoyment. This table essentially brings you the threshold of turntables costing many multiples more than the Prime. You would have to spend perhaps two or three times more money to gain an appreciable difference from this $3,800 table, and even then I'm not sure if you wouldn't be having some sellers remorse on the drive home. The Prime has a sound that I have found that I've grown to appreciate more and more throughout this past year of use, a deeper level of analog bliss than I've experienced before.
I give the Prime a solid recommendation. While $3800 is not cheap by any means, it certainly is a small sum for what you are getting here. You could double or triple that investment and not realize any tangible improvements. The Prime is that good.
Product Weakness: | Speed runs slightly high (easily correctable using power reguulation, VPI SDS or Phoenix Engineering products). Tonearm is sometime finicky to cue because of pad material on cueing lift. |
Product Strengths: | Effortless sound and detail retrieval, toe-tapping pace and rhythm, flexibility with cartridge selection, value that makes you scratch your head when comparing with pricier options. |
Amplifier: | Rogue Stereo 90 Super Magnum |
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | Rogue Perseus Magnum; Rogue Ares Phono Preamp |
Sources (CDP/Turntable): | VPI Prime |
Speakers: | Vandersteen Treo |
Cables/Interconnects: | Grover Huffman |
Music Used (Genre/Selections): | The gamut - Acoustic Rock, Alternative, Progressive, Jazz |
Room Size (LxWxH): | 27 x 15' x 8' |
Room Comments/Treatments: | Living Room |
Time Period/Length of Audition: | One Year |
Other (Power Conditioner etc.): | Richard Grey |
Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Your System (if other than home audition): | Home Audition |
that was my favorite part.
IIRC, the pulley that drives the belt is stepped. That mean which groove you put the belt on determines actual rotational speed. Check out HW's post below in which he reports that the middle two grooves on the pulley are in the Goldilocks zone (just right).
Hi ,
I've never tried using the Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU & Roadrunner Tachometer ( Im using the VPI SDS on both my TNT 6 & HR-X ) but is there an advantage in terms of sonics , speed stability, flexibility and ease of use. Why did you choose these products over the SDS ? I hope you can try the SDS and compare it to the Phoenix Engineering product.
Mondial
These add ons had the same benefits on both decks, that being a sense of stability and also tighter bass response, in addition to electronic speed control and switching from 33 to 45 rpm.
Opus 33 1/3
The SDS is the ticket for a speed control on an AC synchronous motor driven table. If you still have the SDS, will it work on the Thorens? If so, what were the results?
"The SDS is the ticket for a speed control on an AC synchronous motor driven table."
Depending on the year/model, the Thorens may be an AC induction motor;
IMHO, the Eagle is far superior to the SDS: It has higher output power, is more stable than the SDS, has finer speed adjustment and can be used with or without the tachometer feedback to prevent long term drift as the table warms up.
I've never used either one, and so far don't feel a need to buy either of 'em. 'Course that could change if I was able to demo in my system.
Have you directly compared the Eagle and SDS in use with your tt and found the SDS did not provide stable speed? If so, with what tt?
I own a Phoenix Eagle PSU and RoadRunner and use it with a VPI Scout turntable. I have never owned or used an SDS. I never said the SDS does not provide stable speed, I said the Eagle is more stable.
Phoenix has compared the two and measured the differences in stability:
Since you've never owned/used a SDS and haven't directly compared it with the Eagle, I can only assume you base your statement that the Eagle is "more stable" than the SDS just on what the Phoenix guy claims.
Seems to me that if there's a significant difference between his product and the SDS the way to show it would be to employ each device separately one after another with the same tt and compare/measure the results when the tt is running - not just initial startup.
I think the greatest advantage of the Eagle over the SDS is its ability to be controlled by the RoadRunner tachometer in order to maintain accurate platter speed. To me, that constitutes a substantial advantage. Next to that, the only other major advantage is cost. The Eagle and RoadRunner combination represents a cost savings of $641 compared to the much more expensive SDS. Based on those two advantages alone, I don't understand why anyone would be promoting VPI's SDS over the Phoenix Engineering components. However, to each his own!
Best regards,
John Elison
I have to agree that the CLEAR advantage of the Eagle over the SDS is the cost and the ability to hook up the roadrunner for constant correct speed management. Do VPI tables run at accurate speeds? Absolutely. Do they drift over time due to belt wear, movement of stand alone motor from platter, bearing wear, etc.? YES. Does the Roadrunner/Eagle combo control all of that? YES. Fantastic product.
that cost difference would sway me -- assuming the Phoenix products work as well with my SAMA as an SDS would.
Both the Phoeinx and the SDS are great products. The $ difference between the two is considerable, but VPI has been in business for 40 plus years, therefore, they will be around to support the SDS for many years to come. The audio business is a real tough business and the survival rate is difficult. Something to consider.
This argument is often used, but how important is it really for a system that costs only $759. The warranty will protect you against manufacturing defects and without any defects, most electronic components usually last a very long time. Therefore, even if the component breaks 10-years from now, it will probably be more cost effective to buy a new one rather than have it repaired.
How many audio components have you had to repair over the years? I have probably spent one hundred thousand dollars on stereo equipment over the years and I've never had to pay to have a component repaired. The very few components I've owned that have failed all failed during their warranty period. Therefore, I don't think your argument holds the slightest bit of weight for something that costs only $759.
Best regards,
John Elison
The fact is that a lot of money is spent in the repair of audio gear. Some repairs are normal wear and tear, and others are components that failed out of warranty after only a few years of use. I know a lot of DIY'ers who can pull off simple repairs that save them good money. But the repair of a digital speed controller? Nope, that's going back to the manufacturer.
I'm a dealer for both products, and both products are fine. VPI has more years in business than Phoenix has months, but VPI had to start somewhere too. I wish Phoenix much success.
I find these devices interesting. In the case of VPI, their controller works well but does no monitoring of speed.. Phoenix does, but they can't correct an error, they can only compensate after the error.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
Good point. But you also have to consider the age of the SDS, IIRC it's pushing 20 years and the parts used in 20 year old designs have a way of going obsolete.
One of their customers just got bit by this on his PLC controller which might only be 5 years older than the SDS:
nt
Did you look at part 2 of the video?
When I saw the tt near the end I was hoping that he was gonna do the kind of comparison I mentioned. To me - a technical ignoramus, the most interesting and persuasive test would be to actually *hear* a difference between the two products as well as see it on a tach.
Lakeshore Larry....so what?? They say that there is instability while starting, or changing speeds.... By the time one releases the tonearm to play the record, the instability checks itself out. My turntable (VPI Superscout rim drive with SDS is stable to MY ears. It runs when at 33, from 33.2 to 40.1, but varies primarily long term from 33.3 to 33.6.
See above (re part II).
33.3 to 33.6? Or is it a truncated 33.69 (let's call it 33.7, what's .01 between friends)? So your maximum speed error could be 1.1%? If that's not a problem for you, then congratulations and enjoy.
Whenever a manufacturer compares one of their products to a competitor's, they lose all credibility for the test. They can rig the parameters any way that want to skew the results. I suggest that claim is bogus from the start and not even worth considering.
Edits: 11/29/15
Opus 33 1/3
Hey Drew thank you very much for the review and glad you're still enjoying the tables! :D Regarding the rest of the thread, I'll let John and Harry have fun on the speed debate, I think it keeps them both young!
---
Regardless of what table you buy or own as long as you're spinning vinyl you're doing the right thing!
I think Harry owes you at least a great dinner after this review.
Drew, thank you for a very interesting and concise review of the prime. I did not think the 103 would be a good match so now I will try my 100 Anniversary Denon and see if I get the same results. If it is a good match it will be highly recommended since the 103 is very hard to beat at any price on the metal Classic arm..
So, after reading that the speed was off I went to the factory and checked 9 Primes that were to be boxed today. The speed was slightly slow on the top groove, slightly fast on the bottom groove and both inner grooves were so close to spot on you could not tell which was which but either was dead nuts on speed.
Glad you are enjoying your Prime.
HW
I have an aluminum body I bought from a guy in England off ebay and the sound smith LC retip on my prime and it just sings. It sounds great and tracks very well. It is easily the best cart I've ever heard. Most of my experience is in the sub $500 range but I have heard a couple $1000 carts, FWIW.
If you are going to experiment with Denon, I suggest this route!
Nate
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields
Opus 33 1/3
I am thinking of getting a Prime myself, but reports of the speed being off are a bit disturbing. Can they get out of whack in shipping? Does the ambient temperature impact them? If you test each one carefully before shipping, this shouldn't be happening in the customer's system.
As HW indicated, different grooves on the motor pulley are slightly different in size. Speed can be adjusted by changing which motor pulley groove is driving the belt.
The top groove is the smallest and will result in a slower speed, the bottom groove on the motor pulley is larger resulting is a faster speed.
IIRC, the VPI Classic series uses a similar motor pulley arrangement.
I was asking how the OP's turntable could have had the wrong speed, if they are all checked at the factory for the correct speed. Presumably, something must have happened to throw it off.
If you look at my post below you will see I worked out the math for the percent error from setpoint.
Look up the manual for the Eagle PSU/tach. In it you will find the posted margin of error(nothing is perfect after all).
I think your upset about a non-issue.
Nice review. Clear and concise. Would love to own a Cadenza Black / VPI Prime combo someday ;-)
Couple questions:
Who is Bill Stephenson? Why does a $3800 table run fast? Is VPI going to fix it? How much does the 'eagle and roadrunner' fix cost?
The eagle and Roadrunner are not a fix. the prime runs right on speed and if it does not it will be fixed so it does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HW
They are not meant to be a fix. They are meant to make your Prime run at the correct speed and provide electronic switching between 33 and 45. The RoadRunner is an exceptionally accurate tachometer. It allows me to keep my Sota Millennia running at the correct speed. Of course, my Sota incorporates electronic speed adjustment in addition to electronic switching between 33 and 45. Have you seen this video:
"Why does a $3800 table run fast?"
Because er, uh, -- hey, look, Music Direct has new vinyl!
----------------------------
"Use adjectives instead of numbers, and you'll never be wrong again." ~ The Wizard of Audio Oz
Please lend me some of your magical thoughts so I can think vintage is wonderful, too.
Because it doesn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You checked samples at the factory, got dead-on speed, for all intents and purposes. Original poster checked his turntable, it was a little fast. So what? Maybe it's an anomaly.Besides, I have to make allowances for turntables that aren't quartz-lock, direct drive, too. No big deal. Relax.
----------------------------
"Use adjectives instead of numbers, and you'll never be wrong again." ~ The Wizard of Audio Oz
Please lend me some of your magical thoughts so I can think vintage is wonderful, too.
Edits: 11/29/15
> Why does a $3800 table run fast? Is VPI going to fix it?
The Prime doesn't incorporate any kind of electronic speed control. That requires an additional component or two -- an upgrade, if you will.
Remember the good old days when turntables included built-in strobes and had adjustments for correcting platter speed errors. Times change! We live in a different world today.
Check the thread halfway down the page for VPI's opinion.
The motor pulley has several different grooves of slightly differing diameter. Speed adjustment is just a matter of changing the belt position to a different diameter groove on the motor pulley.
There really isn't a speed problem, just a problem understanding the motor pulley. I think it's related to a RTFB shortcoming of some of the users.
But maybe you didn't read it :)
John, you know as well as I do that any table made in the "good old days" with electronic speed control sounded like crap, piled on top of garbage.
Give it up already, the Prime is the best sounding table you can buy for under $9000.00 and you know it. I know this makes you stay up at night but the whole world agrees with me, not you.
HW
I am on the road until the end of next week, but promise to report back on my Prime using the Phoenix tachometer (Roadrunner) with and without the Eagle and will even run the Prime with the Eagle and the Roadrunner both connected to each other versus not connected to each other. I refrained from including these items in my review of the Prime because I did not want to confuse the issue. Let me say a few things right now. I have a KAB SL1200 that can act as a frame of reference. My Prime runs a wee bit fast as reported in my review of it, after motor warmup 33.595-33.605 rpm according to the Roadrunner. My SL1200 runs 33.334 rock steady after warmup, but the motor in it is controlled direct drive. This information does verify that the Roadrunner is accurate. These numbers for both turntables are obtained without the Eagle in the loop, which can't be used with the SL1200 anyway. In my opinion, Harry's report that Prime turntables that he has checked in New Jersey are running at the correct speed is entirely credible. This is a function of the control being applied by the power companies and it is perhaps true that Florida Power & Light is delivering power that slightly higher frequency and higher voltage too as compared to the power in NJ. I will endeavor to report later on the influence any of this has on the sound of the Prime.
Have you tried moving the motor pod in/out? That will increase or decrease the platter speed, but I don't know whether it'll be able to lower the speed from ~33.6 rpm to 33.33. With the tachometer connected it should be easy enough to find the optimal position of the motor pod.
Yes in my review of the Prime I mentioned that moving the motor does change the speed, but not enough. I would like to have a chance to carefully listen for the difference in sound caused by speed before commenting further. Except for people with perfect pitch, I suspect that it is almost, if not completely, inaudible. On the other hand, my sense is that the difference caused by regulation using the Eagle or the SDS does have an audible effect on the sound.
Edits: 11/29/15
You confirm that the speed you measured is less than 1/10 of 1% above setpoint.I'd say that is well within the margin of error both of your measuring equipment and technique.
.. either that or my reading comprehension is, but looks like he's reporting an error of about .33/33.33, which is 1%.
Still, doesn't seem that big a deal, and without knowing the power line frequency at the time, hard to make an assessment about whether it's an issue. The line frequency does vary, it is only specified as an average accuracy. And negative feedback control systems sometimes degrade the sound of audio components as well, so speed stability and accuracy alone may not be enough to determine the best sound. There have always been turntable designers that felt plugging the motor directly into the power line gave the best sound, and designers that felt it best to regenerate the motor drive signals.
".. either that or my reading comprehension is, but looks like he's reporting an error of about .33/33.33, which is 1%"
Let me prove it... 33.6(avg. high to low)-33.33=0.27.........
0.27/33.33=0.0081 so I'd say less than 1/10 of 1% look go to you?
"The line frequency does vary, it is only specified as an average accuracy"
Line frequency does not vary. I've seen a fusible link blow up because frequency was 2deg. out of phase while syncing a power house (2200KW)to the grid. Talk about a big bang! All turbines in the US run at a 60 HTZ frequency. The grid is carefully monitored to maintain that frequency.
not that it really matters
Edits: 11/29/15
it's .0081
.1= tenths or 1%
.01=hundredths or 1/10 of 1%
.001=thousands or 1/100 of 1%
Let me try...
1%=1 per hundred (thus cent) or 1/100 or 0.01; 1/10 of that is 0.001.
So .0081 is 0.8%, or just less than 1%.
It is very unlikely that the line frequency in Florida is different than the line frequency anywhere else in the United States.
Everything synchs to the grid. Any effort to run at a different frequency creates a rather violent reaction.
And voltage will not have any affect on the speed of these motors.
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